posted
hello, my name is darrel jefferies. I'm from Texas, living in Ventura California now. I'm new on this board and I'm very honored to here. I have a question about the non-lead based formulation of one shot paint. Is it necessary to add the hardener in the new formulation? I am doing custom pinstriping on top of the clear on motorcycles. I have used the lead based paint for 26 years without hardener and have had very good and long lasting results with it. When one shot removed the lead I was concerned about the longevity of the new formulation, so I started adding the hardener sold by one shot. I'm courious if anyone has used the new paint without adding the hardener for work on top of clear coats, if so have you seen any of your old work, how is it holding up? Thanks very much. PS; As an extension of my introduction, here is an address where I show my pinstriping work.
posted
Hey Darrel, welcome to Letterville! I saw your work, that's nice. I work with paint alot, but not pinstriping (too bad for me).
Anyway, it seems as though the hardener is relatively new, that time will tell. I don't see how it wouldn't make the paint last, I mean look what happens to the paint and hardener mix that's left in a little cup.
I'm using the One Shot hardener in a number of ways and I really like it. It's a paint renaissance of sorts for me. Last night I finalized a design of a sign for the back of my truck. I'm very pleased with the results. In a few minutes I'll probably go start the background colors, which will involve using a mechanical drafting pen and One Shot w/hardener (as an experiment). Of course, the final part of the test will be whether I can clean the pen out and use it again the next day.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hey Darrell, Welcome. In my experience, I've used OneShot without the hardener to stripe bikes and have had good results. Maybe because most bike owners are especially careful with their bikes anyway...but i have seen some that I've done serveral years back and they are holding up well. Although anymore, since they now have the hardener, I've been using it. Just my experience and I'm sure I'm not as experienced as some others here. ...Kristie
-------------------- Kristie Byrnes Paintbrush Graphics 6126 Big Cut Rd. Mt. Carroll, IL 61053 rugbyrnes@hotmail.com (563) 357-7614 Posts: 90 | From: Thomson,IL | Registered: Dec 2002
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Darrel, Welcome. At any automotive paint store you can purchase synthetic enamel hardener and reducers. They work fine. I think they bond better when catalyzed, but I'm not a lab tester, I'm basing this comment on what I've gone through trying to remove the stuff at a later time.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
AHA! Rick, I've long speculated that the 'synthetic' enamels were another name for oil based paints, as in synthetic alkyd resins, as opposed to natural resins from plants like linseed or pine. Is this true? Can you verify it? (Enquiring minds want to know).
Also that the reducers sold for them are higher quality than the "paint thinner" sold at hardware stores. Thanks for any help.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Darrel,look up in the top corner under post a reply and type in clearing over 1shot and a bunch of discussions on this will come up that will give you more info than anyone can probably remember to type in here.
James,what rick means is that the catalyst&reducer for automotive grade alkyd&acrylic enamels will work in 1shot,mostly because for all intents and purposes isocyanate catalyst is pretty much universal,one of the main differences is the strength its cut to and some adding of resins/flow agents/gloss additives/proprietary additives & things like that depending on what type/brand it is you're using. Oil based alkyd enamel is not the same as an automotive or some industrial alkyd enamels that are designed to be catalyzed. There are huge differences in the two.This is a simplified version of an explanation, but Oil based alkyds for the most part cure or dry down to a hardish plasticized film thickness thru oxidation when the oil binder reacts with oxygen and evaporates.... and can pretty much go on curing thru different stages/rates for the life/length of time the paint is on whatever its applied to,which is why oil based enamel appears to go flat,chalk etc as it ages. Alkyds that need catalyzation won't cure unless the isocyanate component is added and the reaction/crosslinking is artificially induced....the main function of the reducer is to keep the paint film open and let the reaction go off at a controlled rate... i.e. keep the top from skinning over and trapping solvent etc. Most reducers will work without a problem,but just like hardeners other agents/blends etc are added to different types and brands of reducers as well......some can also be too harsh for the material you're using and you can "burn" the pigment,the binder,etc and cause yourself problems that will show up later down the line rather than immediately,which is why alot of painters argue the point that it doesnt matter what you reduce with,they just dont see the end result of what happens say 4yrs from now...well they do but they attribute it to natural aging,loss of lead or something else rather than something they've done wrong. The stuff you buy at a hardware or paint store that says PAINT THINNER is mineral spirits,you can't use that in anything not oil based or you're gonna have serious problems with fisheyes and contamination.....anything for use not in oil based pint is going to be labeled Lacquer Thinner or more commonly REDUCER....are they higher quality as far as purity of ingredients etc? yes,but even solvents labeled virgin have various parts of other solvents in them,saying virgin on the label mostly means nothing more than meeting labeling standards.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
James the pen will be fine the next day if you clean it out right after you use it,let catalyzed enamel sit up in there for too long and nothing is going to get it out.....and catalyzing enamels has been pretty common place since the late 60's/70's...when 1shot introduced it i dunno,but its not really new,just new to some industries
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Gavin, thanks for the info. What I was wondering was: about 14 years ago I bought some synthetic enamel to paint a church bus. It required no hardener to dry. Was THAT 'synthetic enamel' a type of alkyd paint?
It sounds from your reply as though there are now synthetic enamels that do require a hardener. I havn't bought that type in awhile, so I wasn't aware.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Depends solely on the type of synthetic enamel you bought.....if it was something designed for painting equipment or such its possible that no catalyst was required but thats not real common...it coulda been called synthetic or alkyd. When synthetic/alkyd/straight enamel was first in wide use it wasnt catalyzed,it depended solely on rate of solvent evaporation to control the time it remained exposed to air/O2 thats why people never were in the habit of catalyzing it and viewed adding the catalyst as something special ala Earl Scheib. Everything designed for automotive use in the last 25yrs minum has been intended to use with catalyst,names are the same nbut technology is different Alotta people didnt/still wont because they substitute using a fast flashing reducer and things like letting it sit in the sun thinking that will have the same effect because it feels cured to the touch....no matter what you do you have some softness under the initial film. Alot of paint distributors will tell you or have stupidly told people in the past that oh yea its no problem to do that but its very irresponsible of them...spill gas on it,get bird crap on it,try to recoat it etc and you have problems. We never have because we dont want the comebacks. The difference in $$$ that you save on purchasing the catalyst in a case like that vs not buying it is negligible...costs far less to spend $36 more on it and do it once than save $36,have a dick up and redo it. The best paint for the job at the time is the cheapest in the long run and that isnt always reflected in the hard $$$ upfront cost of the material.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Bill; Why would you want to? For surface striping, One Shot is superior to any other coating material made. The feed from the brush is smoother, tight work is easier and a squirrel hair brush works in tight work easier. (an acrylic bristle brush with more snap works better with the HoK Urethanes)
And if you are going to stripe and then use an Urethane Clear over the work . . Use PPG DBC as your striping medium. You will not find a smoother, more predictable material! Period! Plus, just think of a color . . you can make it!
Been there, Done that! I will be giving Demonstrations at the "Rush Bash" in Albuquerque, NM Oct 29-30. Feel free to come compare notes, get a little education!
One more thing . . I am not, in any way, a represenative nor employee of the PPG Corporation. Just an educated user and teacher.
posted
Sorry John, maybe I do need an education from you. 25 years in business lettering and striping just about everything on wheels certainly won't qualify me.
I used 1 Shot as my only lettering and striping paint up until the last 10 years when I noticed a significant change in its performance -- especially on semis. I gave HOK Lettering and Striping Enamel a try and I was pleasantly surprised in its performance and handling. For those who do not know the difference between this line of urethane and standard automotive urethanes, I have tried to explain that the lettering and striping line is expecially formulated for just that (LETTERING & STRIPING). I use the same squirrel hair brushes for this paint that I used with 1 Shot and I can pull a longer line with this paint and can do every bit as much detail as with 1 Shot. I have brought the paint to meets for others to try and when letterheads come to my shop, we get the paint out and play with it. Everybody's been amazed at its performance.
It has a catalyst in it for use on top of automotive clear coats which is primarily how I use it, or it can be cleared over with standard automotive urethane paints. It is absolutely perfect for motorcycles which is why I entered into the discussion on this post.
Many times when I have spoke about this paint on this board I get ragged at, as if no one wants to try anything different than 1 Shot for automotive lettering and striping. The 1 Shot folks don't have a corner on the market, and I feel entitled to give my opinion in a free speech forum such as this.
I really don't need to be berated for my experiences. If that is your choice have at it, I'm simply trying to help this gentleman out. I have used both paints and therefore feel I had something to lend to the discussion, but I'm getting the feeling that I shouldn't bring it up, because some of you painters are diehard 1 Shot fans and want to promote that product exclusively. YOU ARE VERY VOCAL ABOUT IT!
You should realize, though, that it is not the product it once was, so don't be irritated or upset that it doesn't perform like it used to. 1 Shot knows about urethanes, and with my discussions with Frank Manning in the past, they have admitted the superiority of the urethanes over alkyds such as 1 Shot and that's is why they developed the clears they now have.
I'm simply saying there are alternatives to 1 Shot and you can either ignore them which gives me the advantage over you in terms of how our work holds up, or you can continue to do as you are doing by promoting a product that has been weakened significantly by governmental restrictions. I'll sign off on the subject before I get lynched by an angry mob of 1 Shot fanatics who far outweigh us urethane users.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Bill, not wanting to get in a P-----g match here, but, for years One Shot has been a wonderful material. But I started striping in 1957 with "DuPont Lettering and Striping Enamel", and have used darn near everything since. Sometimes "Whatever's available", And yes, it (One Shot) has suffered in several areas due to the loss of lead solids and the transparency that came with that . . . However, ALL of our Signage and Automotive Coatings have suffered the same fate so one just has to adjust and truck on. One Shot is still one of the Best!
Again, I recommend, when striping under clearcoat, PPG's DBC, unreduced . . Very smooth, Unlimited Colors, Very flat build, and it softens itself, so you don't have to work much reducer on your pallette as you go. If you're fast, and you have to be to use HoK, you'll like it. Promise!
posted
Darrel there are alot of good responses here and I hope it helps you,...I have used both hok and ppg dbc and personally prefer hok over the ppg product.
One shot has its uses and in the past it performed quite well until the automotive paint industry changed its formulations(from single stage acrylic enamels to base coat/clear coat urethanes). About that time everyone and his brother,first cousin and nephew came up with some trick that was "supposed" to work with one shot to make it last on top of the newer ureathanes,..some worked and some didn't,...it is hard to take a product like one shot that had a variance from the epa laws ten years later and adapt it to the newer formulations. In the end all you have is a paint that was adapted to work,...not designed to,...
Hok and another brand I have used X-otic were, and are designed to be brushed and and used as an integral part of a ureathane paint system. Both paints if you read their tech sheets have catalysts that can be used on top of and below ureathane clear coats.Often folks will experiment and get good results from adaptations but in the long run why not use a product that was designed and formulated specifically for the task you intend to use it? They come with printed instuctions and a warranty not offered by experimental adaptations with paints not specifically designed for the task at hand.
Thus if you have a problem there are sources available to help you if problems do arise,...not the "our paint was not formulated to be used that way" response. All in all one shot is a great product for signs,.... but for custom paint and striping I would suggest House of color or X-otic,both paints of which are formulated to do the specific task you asked for advice on.
Besides all that they actually do hold up better in the long run,......
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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