posted
Hi everyone! I'm a newbie, learning lots, and puzzling about design time. I feel I take too long finalizing designs. I'm sure this is mostly inexperience but I'm interested in how much time others allot for this. Also wondering who shows clients a number of design options, or just goes with one, or presents a sketch or a realistic computer-rendered picture, or a combination of these? Obviously it depends on the type of sign, but a 'rough' idea would be great. I'm wrestling right now with a circular dimensional sign. There are so many design options I could spend hours, and also could waste a lot of time overdoing it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Erica
Posts: 31 | From: Williamstown, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2004
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I offer 2 design options to my customer. Depending on them, the first one might be my adaptation of their ideas, and the second, my take on the name/style. Some customers are great and let me do all the choosing, some don't.
I am on the low scale of the pricing chain. I include the ideas with the price of the sign. It usually takes me about a half-hour per computer generated sketch.
If they can't decide what they like, I will charge them $75 for an additional sketch. They can keep a VERY rough draft-printed copy in black and white, with my name on it. Usually at this point, this is their second visit with me, and they will give me a deposit and I get to work.
If they want a design on a disc and all printed up camera ready etc., they can have it for $150 even if they never get the sign from me. I am sure that there are a lot of folks out there who charge more.
I never draw sketches by hand anymore, which I sometimes miss doing. But in this day and age of "Can I see that in Red?" "How about Burgundy?" it is quicker to just do it on the computer.
As much as I love designing, I try to limit the options. Sometimes I will combine elements of the two initial sketches, for example, if they like the lettering on one but the pictorial or shape on the other, etc. A person will keep you working on their sketch all day if you let them. I want to get my money and get them out the door with a smile on their face ASAP!
Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Erica...I am sure many folks with differing experiences will give lots of advice.
From my experience, if you show a client three different designs they WILL pick the ugliest one that you just whipped out as a starting point. So your labours in doing a couple more that are much nicer will be time wasted. (Except that you can modify them for future, similar, jobs)
I, now, just show one layout (I might have done three different ones that they don't see) and let the customers make their suggestions for modifications to that. Saves a lot of wasted time.
Plus, you don't have to go through the process of pricing three different layouts.
There are many who subscribe to the "3 tier" method of "up-selling" but in my type of work I don't find it to be very productive.
You mention a dimensional sign. To me that is already at the high end of the "3 tier" ladder so just one design should be sufficient.
My dos centavos.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
There are a million ways to do this,this is my thought on it.
Do you charge for your design time?
If not, every design you do can potentially be a money loser, no matter how much time you spend on it.
What kind of design is it, is it a sign? or a logo and a sign goes with it?
Logo's are worth more since it represents the company and is a bigger investment in that most will put in on everything, you the designer will probably have to deal with that once in a while, sign layout can be hard and take time, especially when they get complicated. You have to get a design deposit up front.
I have no hard and fast rule, but the more questions I ask the client the easier it is to get what they need....a basic creative brief of who, what, why, where and how....if it's a banner or coro, I don't need to do that, then again I rarely do them anyways. If the client comes in and says I want a dimensional sign thats 4'x2', make it look like a 50's sign...
What is your budget? Where will it go? When do you need it?
From there...a copy of thier logo, color pallete, maybe zoning issues? Illuminated? if external, any coordination or engineering? Will the location hold the wieght of the sign?
In most outdoor signs, these questions should at the very least be considered, especially as to who is responsible, do you design and assume?, or work out a process to get a better result.....one you have enough answers it is easier to design a sign within thier budget and zoning requirements and stle that you understand and the client likes. Thats why I need money upfront to address these issues and they appreciate the process and the amont of work. If they want the design for free, than they went to the wrong person....I sell design. My point...and I do have one is.....
If you are design layouts for free, and a few other shops in your area charge nothing, what is to stop any client from going to 3 signshops and getting 9 concepts and prices .... all .... for .. free. If you design for free, one rough concept (if you are on a creative spurt 2) with a basic cost as fast as you can. If you charge for design, you have to stay within your design budget, though if you are new, it will take a little longer so give yourself some slack, you need signs in your portfolio so do it right. On the the tier pricing, I do believe you have to be ready for value engineering, be ready for different ways of building and pricing the sign.
By the way, some dimensional signs or logos I design can take 1 hour, or 5 days if I agonize over it. So I'm no big expert on how long it takes. Just try to get paid enough for your effort on thier behalf.
[ October 18, 2004, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I guess my main trouble is learning to accept that a design created within imposed limits like budget, shape, 'taste' not my own, or whatever, can still be a decent sign, even if it's not the 'best' layout...
I am fussing way too long about what would be good, wanting each one to be an astounding work of art... that's why I thought it would be helpful to learn how long it takes other people to find layout solutions.
The problems that concern manufacture tend to work out OK, building signs laid out by others doesn't really faze me (even when they're ugly), but I seem to need more faith in any layout that's my own. Confidence issue, I guess. Aauughh!
This particular 6' round sign is indoor wood 'dimensional' with a 2-word name and pictorial of some kind, all for around $800Can. I think the dimension will come from appliques/mouldings given the low$$, but I'm struggling with the layout 'cause I always want to do something 'different', and the darn thing's round, and I'm too picky, so it's taking too long... maybe I should just relax, do something more conventional and quick, and attribute up the pseudo-perfectionism to inexperience...
Thanks guys for responding, I realize there are countless variables and I sure appreciate all info! Keep it coming and help me get smarter!!
posted
I cant remember the last time I spent any more than two hours tops to design anything I sell. First off I don't give the client very much say so in what I will do for them. I do all my homework, ask a ton of questions, and generally hit pretty damn close to what I know is best for the customer and what they will like.
Any changes they might suggest are generally pretty minor and sometimes I'll take their suggestion but most times I wont. I have flat out told a client I WILL NOT DO IT THEIR WAY!
Most will say ok to that. I pretty much dictate to them that I am a designer first and foremost and if they come to me they pretty much have to do as I say.
You're right about experience and how it relates to design time. I'm at this 30 years full time so I know a few tricks, have all the tools, and know how to use them FAST. Time is money is my creedo!
You will look back 20 years from now and shake your head in disbelief at how slow you are now and how fast you will be then.
Oh and forget the art stuff. Always remember you are in business to make money first and once you become rich making signs you can then do selective works of art.
Good luck with your new vocation and keep learning all you can. Knowledge = Money.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Jill, Dave, Rick, Bob: thanks so much for taking the time to respond and advise - I sure appreciate it! And I'm just gonna keep on absorbing all the great info on this BB. Take care, Erica
If the customer gives you a budget to work within, it can be hard to stay there at times. The tendency to overwork the design kicks in and, as Bob said, time is money.
I'll rough out a pencil sketch based on input from the customer. Usually only takes a few minutes and gives you a better direction to go in fairly quickly. If they need it cleaned up for approval (usually by the wife...lol), I'll get a deposit for design time.
Granted, some of the "taste" is not to my liking, and not everything I produce is going to be a "work of art", but the key is not to let that distract you from the reason you started in the sign business...to make money.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I recommend two books: Mike Steven's Mastering Layout and Dan Antonelli's Logo Design for Small Business. Mastering Layout covers sign layout principles in general. Logo Design, of course, covers logo design specifically. Together they'll set you back $70 plus shipping but it will be money well-spent if you are trying to design signs...the books will speed up and improve your designs.
posted
HI Erica and welcome to Letterville!! (I like it here so well, I think I'll stay . . . )
I do 'rough scale art' drawings, usually 1", 3/4" or 1/2" scale. They are nice, color art, showing details and typestyles, but I call them 'rough' because they are not computer-generated clean.
~On jobs that are SOLD, I usually fax a more rough drawing over for editing, changes, and/or confirmation on the order.
~On jobs I'm SELLING, I provide 1 or 2 of these if the customer has provided an existing company logo. The customer is aware of a fee for the 1/2 hour to hour it takes for this...anywhere from $25 to $40, unless I get the job....so then it's 'in' the bill.
~On art where the customer has no identity and wants ME to design the logo for the sign they could pay up to and beyond $100, but there again, it's a little harder to charge more for drawings like these when compared to the 'camera-ready' art they will eventually need anyway, which I don't do, so refer them to someone else for that and then they can get the signage later from me.
Anyway, on these jobs I am charging more for a "creative concept" rather than the process used to define it on paper, and it's not near enough.... call around and find out what ad & logo agencies get for logo design!!!
In any case, the scale drawing becomes an integral part of my work-order and is important in 3 ways:
1. The customer has to see the art, edit for spelling, numbers, colours, etc, and signature approve w/ down-payment (and PO# if used), before I will even start a job . . . which means if there are ANY changes or problems with the finished product, the customer is responsible to pay for that change or correction. But I find that because of these preliminaries, mistakes are rarely made and customer always gets what they expected and paid for.
2. Since the art is to 'scale', I know exactly the typestyles, sizes and line-lengths of all copy, all the colours, framing or installation procedures to plan for, and anything else pertinent to the completion of the job.
3. When the job is finished, the artwork is attached to the customers invoice and filed alphabetically. If they call back with a repeat order, or need a change to the sign, I have the detailed specs and notes on the drawing and can quickly repeat the job, or prepare replacement/ change-copy, whatever. Impresses customers every time
GOOD LUCK ERICA!! (Hey, did you know your name means 'powerful'??
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Erica, Usually the drawing time is directly proportionate to the price of the sign, but not always. I will waste too much time on a parking sign sometimes! But sometimes an idea for a blasted "fancy" sign comes in a matter of minutes and looks just fine. If you think you're taking too long... you are. Two suggestions: look at the "Policy" section on my website (click on the little doghouse/home icon above) and help yourself to any parts of it that you can use. Second, send me the file and I will take a look at it if you'd like. Sometimes we are our own worst critics. Read my slogan below!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Thanks Rapid, William, Sheila, Gene! You've all given me something to refer to. It's really helpful! I'm getting a sense now of an efficient design process. Sheila, I thought my name only referred to a type of shrub, so I'll take 'powerful' any day! Gene, I really appreciate your help and offer to critique the sign, it was very generous, and the signs on your website are awesome! In the end the requirements for the round sign changed and it's history. The designs were just sketches on paper, reworked over and over, and now irrelevant. All that time ("money") wasted! See, I'm learning! But one day when confidence allows I will post something and you guys can give it a going-over, and I hope you will! Take care all Erica
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