posted
Hello all, I am in the process of re-furbishing an MDO sign (4x8 half moon) with dimensional MDO letters spaced off the sign subsrate. I removed it and the letters to find one BIG bubble in the face of the sheet(about an 8" circle). I am familiar with the decline of quality in Crezon and expected it but, without getting a new board, cutting the shape and re-drilling all the wholes (many holes), is there a way I can get that bubble back down? Can I inject the buble with some Gorilla glue, silicone or epoxy, then lay some heavy flat object on in to get it flat???? Sounds like the right thing to me but, you are the pros and I value your opinion.
posted
I would cut out the laminate section that is effected with an xacto, and then fill the affected area with a thin scrim of wood filler, let dry, sand smooth, prime paint, finish as usual.
I don't know if the wood filler would hold up. Even after it dries, it still shrinks.
The idea of cutting out the lifted piece of the laminate is good. Why not use the piece you cut out? Cut out the bubble, lay some type II glue, and put the cut piece back.
I don't know if the injection method would completely fill the area underneath. Thus resulting in the same problem later on.
If its double sided MDO, why not flip it over?
-Rich
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm with Tasmus on this one, but I would do the filler again after the first coat dries and is sanded, that's if you really feel you have to save the piece. It's likely to delaminate somewhere else if its already happened once. Personally, I'd get the pattern, burn the sucker, and start over with Signply. You may gather from this that I don't like MDO. You'd be right. MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are some good patching ideas here, but I think I'd seriously look at a new substrate.
Did you do this sign initially? If not, you don't know how it was prepped. If you get this problem fixed, I'd think another problem could be just waiting to happen.
You may find that the time & materials of patching this would probably be close to the time & materials to use new materials. Difference is, you'd be starting with a fresh slate, not a piece that already has known problems.
If this has to be patched instead of replaced, I'd avoid Gorilla Glue. I think it's expanding could be a nightmare.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Corey, Place a new board, face down on the table. Place the old board, face down on top of that. Cut the shape, drill the holes, using the old board as a pattern. Voila! New board, old holes, now reattach the dimensional letters onto it.
Edited to say: You can also, at this time apply another type of substrate like aluminum or DiBond / Alucobond instead of the MDO.
[ October 13, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with the problem-substrate notion . . .
WHY is the material doin' this in the first place?!?!?
When that separation happens, more often than not, there is moisture getting into the material which causes swelling and separating, and will continue to "rot" thru and probably do so regardless of your best efforts because you'll resealing the moisture IN again.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why use a new sheet when this sheet is in great condition, minus the bubble. I don't know about the MDO you got there but, we have had a decline in quality up here. Have you ever picked up a new sheet of MDO and it already had air pockets or a buttload of holes on the edge that you have to spend valuable time puttying??? The sign is fine, I will not be replacing it.....just wanted your take on how to re-furbish. Got $1500 to re-furbish a sign that probably didn't cost that much to produce in the first place. My customer will not be willing to up the cost by another $200-$300 because I didn't see the bubble from the ground when job checking (about 30-35' up on a wall).
I produce mostly new stuff and I like to know that I can "refurbish" when desired. Got a job last month to remove translucent vinyl letters from (2) 4' x 24' lexan substrates about 25' up. Her old sign compnay wanted to replace both pieces of lexan and they id the original job 2-3 years ago. I snuck in and told her that I could remove the graphics and reapply with no worry to the lexan and saved her a few $1000's. You got to be versitile and the answer to every dilemma is not to go NEW - all the time. Thanks for your advice.
posted
Jeez, Corey, if you got $1500 to redo a 4x8, wouldn't $110 bucks be a small investment? Sheila's right, if it goes bad in one place it'll go bad somewhere else. Your time to repair the board would be a good chunk of the cost of a new one. My 2 cents. MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Everybody's got a solution, and they're all good ones. Too many choices.
I think Corey is into refurbishing rather than replacing, so let it be. Over the years, I've had quite a few sheets of MDO come with voids in the laminate. It always seemed to me that it was just a 'skip' in the gluing process where, like maybe when you use a 9' foam roller on an uneven board, sometimes you miss a little place in the middle of the roller. We always just cut out the bad piece, bondo'ed the bare spot; sanded, primed and went on with it. I'm not aware of any problems we ever had recur.
Good luck, however you choose to go. Sounds like you got plenty of money for the job, whichever direction you take.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your headed for an unhappy customer...If the material has deteriorated to the point it is bubbling you're looking at sure failure in short period of time. It will take you longer to "fix" this than to replace it and you'll have nothing when you're thru.
At which point the customer will blame you for the failure(since you just redid it)redrilling all the holes is a cinch...just overlay the boards and drill thru you'll have everything right where it belongs.
I found out a long time ago...the easiest way isn't always the smartest way and the smartest way would definately be pleasing the customer.
Bad news travels faster than good news...I hate to say it but if you take the "fix it" approach you are definately headed for "Bad news".
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
some times the customer wants a refurb because he thinks a new one won't look or last like the original..
Show him what you got and explain the facts. Let him decide.. would that work?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry... but why would anyone mess around with an old piece of material they have to disect fill with bondo sand prime and paint when all you need to do is drive a new piece of material under it and voila your done...customer is happy and you got the money.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Wow Dale!! You've had, quote: "...(over the years) quite a few sheets of MDO come with voids in the laminate..."
I can honestly and thankfully say, I have NEVER seen this in ANY new, single or double-side MDO, 3/8" to 3/4" that I have ever purchased, and I have gotten 30 at at time for baseball field ads.
Had there been any with voids I would have refused to take 'em, because if moisture did'nt start it, moisture/sun/steam would finish it.
LOL Brad, some use aluminum and other substrates. I use aluminum almost exclusively ...I've done mabey 2 MDO signs in the last 5 years . . . . and eventually will have to re-do the ballfield ads and they INSIST on the 3/8" MDO. ...all that primin' and paintin'...ack.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, if I buy a new board will eevryone (you guys) be happy. What will happne to all the mdo letters that are spaced off the 4x8 sheet??? When they go, will the customer still be happy because the boring White substrate is still holding up??? She called me for a refurbish in qwhich I told her my price. She asked how lond I guarantee it for. I said I DONT as it is an older piece that has had time out withstanding the elements. Don't you have cheap customers?. I think SHE will learn from this but, to buy a new sheet would be to buy and router cut all the letters as well. Like I said before. I BUY NEW unless I have an adament customer or I can pull off a refurb job...and I can...in this case, it's both!!!! I ALWEAYS get sent in a different direction when I post a simple question.
posted
Move to Canada Rovelle. In the words of (i believe) Monte Jumper a while ago. I get paid what my signs (and labour) are worth......and they are worth alot. I know what I am going to do with this sign but, what am I gonna do with you guys? If I have a question regarding which Avery vinyl to use....I never get my answer. Instead, I get "dont use avery, use 3m. If I happen to MAKE THE MISTAKE of saying that I in fact are one of the people stupid enough to admit that I use soap and water application when I don't have RT (FUGG* I dry apply 90% of the time anyway) I get in sh-t for it. Hell, I probably just opened up a new debate....."YOU DRY APPLY....ONLY WET APPLY AND WITH RT!!!!!!!
This is the reason I come here 3 times a year instead of 14 times a day like in the past.
posted
Corey, If you always get sent in the direction you wanted to go in the first place, then there would be no reason to post would there? What you have received, are responses from knowledgeable people who have "been there, done that". There are obviously reasons they steer you in a particular direction. No one is advocating that you lose money on the job. I believe they are acting as responsible colleagues who are trying to give you advice, that seems absolutely within reason, to prevent you from a possible failure. You MAY dodge the bullet, and your customer may close way before the panel fails, if it ever does. The Letterheads here are doing the responsible thing here by warning you of some pitfalls. What you do with this information is your prerogative.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay now Corey, WHY cut new letters? As stated above, just drill a template using the old ones. NOW I think you are doing unnecessary work and you are going into a lot of painting you would not have to.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would ask the client which direction to go. You have already told her that there would be no guarantee. I run in to this all the time some will want the new while others are frugal. I fill with both auto filler or Durhams rock hard putty. The auto filler does not shink so much and you get a good bond, but both work great. I would not replace anything withuot direction from the client and oh yeah sign here for any change in contract.
posted
I know how to "go new". the question is..do you all know how to "refurbish?" If I were SIGNCRAFT MAGAZINE and asked you to price a refurb job and explain your method of completing this ordeal, you wouldn't write the magazine to hound them on why the hell they are refurbishing in the first place. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. This is what you have been trying to lead me too but, you forget that I tried to lead my customer to this in the beginning. Just because I cannot lead her to water.....should I refuse the job????? Should I take money out of pocket because "I" think it's right????
Gene, I am a bit confirsed at your last comment. If you believe that I should "go new" with my substrate then, why would you say to go ahead and use my old MDO letters?? Perhaps I will send you a couple of pics ( if I can get your permission).
posted
Corey I have a customer (a really good one) and he is constantly wanting me to refurbish his signs.
I figured out a long time ago I was wasting time and energy doing it...one day my light bulb went on and and the next time he called I went to his storage retrieved the sign he wanted "refurbished" hauled back to the shop took a pattern from it cut it into pieces put it in the trash and made him a new sign.
I get to work on new materials and his sign looks amazingly "like new".
It cost me less to reproduce it than the time involved redoing an old piece of crap. I've been doing this for about 15 years now and he thinks I'm the greatest sign renovator around. Oh did I mention I also charged him for picking up the old sign (that alone paid for the new materials).
I hope you don't mind my saying you are being a little sensitive about this ..all anyone is trying to say here is there is a time to "redo and there is a time to just do". The way you presented the problem... most here agree refurbishing it is both a waste of time and energy.
By the way I too was surprised to hear you are redoing the cut out letters since you never said they were in any kind of trouble (only the backgroung was bubbled).
Sorry if I offended you in any way...all comments presented were well intended.
[ October 21, 2004, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
No offense Monty. Sometimes the pot get stirred here. Let me clarify something. I am repainting everything,letters as well(some flaking). Everything is in good condition but the paint is wearing and the bubble on the substrate.
posted
You have said you have tried to convince the client with little headway so go with the refurbish. Not to offend anybody but the client is paying the shot. Your right Corey you can only show them the path.
posted
Corey, Sorry, I was out for awhile. I'd be happy to look at the photos, send 'em over. The reason I said what seemed to be conflicting statements, is because you didn't mention the letters' condition as being horrible. Unless there is total failure of the lamination and you would have to putty them all to hell and gone, then I would assume a repaint is fine for them. Flaking paint is different than failing board. Cutting them and patching/repriming/repainting edges would then be way above and beyond the "refurbish" job. Just because you are refurbishing, it doesn't mean you can't use a new background as we suggested. You may even decide to replace a letter or two if the replacement is easier than refurbish. We have all been at the point where we have invested too much time into refurbishing something and realized too late that we should have just started new. Our time is worth more than that board. Our reputations are worth more than that board too! Only trying to help.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the replies. I went ahead and bought a sheet for the letters but, am simply repainting the letters.....on your advice. When I posted here a few days ago, I got sidetracked with your responses because, I asked question and got sent in a different direction. I DO understand that you all are answering in my best intersest and thank you. I DO stand behind the fact that people ask questions here and get sent in deifferent directions. Someone might ask if applying soap and water mix to vinyl before applying to DIBOND is a good idea (in regards to the DIBOND) and then there are 38 replies about how 1 should NEVER use water and soap. I simply had my guard up for that so, when it DID happen, I got on the defensive. I am all beter now, thanks
quote:I went to his storage retrieved the sign he wanted "refurbished" hauled back to the shop took a pattern from it cut it into pieces put it in the trash and made him a new sign.
I get to work on new materials and his sign looks amazingly "like new".
It cost me less to reproduce it than the time involved redoing an old piece of crap. I've been doing this for about 15 years now and he thinks I'm the greatest sign renovator around. Oh did I mention I also charged him for picking up the old sign (that alone paid for the new materials).
That's a hard thing to get across to some customers. Some seem to think that the physical/material substrate is the tangible value of the sign. I have people bring in old pieces of aluminum, plywood etc. wanting it repainted when, because of labor cost, it would be less $$ to just buy a new piece. They haven't considerd the cost of your labor. They don't seem to get it that the labor required and the graphics are the main cost and value of a sign. Sure the material is important but what's gonna bring in the business; a $40 sheet of MDO or the same MDO with your advertisement for $400 ??
We usually don't fool with any refurbs that aren't either redwood, HDU, or sometimes aluminum because these types of materials will last way yonder longer than MDO if maintained. But you just have to determine each thing individually, Corey's sign might be well worth redoing if the labor would be more to re-build the whole sign
[ October 22, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
...all that primin' and paintin'...ack. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic