posted
My church's entrance gate signs were foam letters mounted with silicone (that blue foam from Home Depot). Hurricane Ivan took most of them off.
My church would like me to replace them. Thing is, these letters were always being damaged by lawn people. Is there a material that is not so easily broken and yet is light-weight enough to mount with silicone?
(The letters range in size from approximately 3" to 22", and the gate has a slight curve to it.)
Also, are there any tips for removing the still-in-good-shape silicone (it's 8 years old) that is very stuck to the brick?
(I'm really expecting the answer to both questions is "no")
Finally, if there isn't a good light-weight alternative, what do you think you would use to make the letters for these gates? And how would you mount them (the gates are brick)?
[ October 08, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
William, I use "Ultra Board" or "Gator Foam". It's cheap and has a PVC laminate on both sides. Its very easy to work with and holds up well. I try to make money by cutting them out myself, not giving the money to Gemini. After all I am a sign shop right! Check out my web site. You'll be surprised how many times you can sell some quick address or name to people. Have fun. . . . . .John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
William, If you don't want to drill into the brick (which is what it sounds like) you can order the Gemini letters with pads. They are perforated plastic discs, applied to the studs, which allow the adhesive to ooze through and hold quite well.
Don't remove the existing silicone until you find out which pieces are covered by the new copy and which need peeling. You may only need to remove 10% of the stuff. NO, there is no easy way, but slicing it down with a sharp putty knife may be "good enough".
[ October 08, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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William - if you need to do this more economically, you can make the foam letters and have them sprayed with an encapsulant or truck box liner, they definately won't be as crisp as the Gemini Letters but it could be a solution to them being damaged so easily. You can try and find someone in your area who will spray them or there are sprayers available now that are quite affordable and very easy to use.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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John, which signs on your website are made with gatorfoam? I couldn't find any. Nice work btw!
William, Gemini's letters come with a lifetime guarantee, so they are pretty easy to sell. The catologues come with the customer's price, which is marked up 40% for you. They have alot of typestyles to choose from and are really easy to install. Good luck!
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by William Bass: Thanks Brad.
Can plastic letters from Gemini be mounted to brick with silicone (even the 22" ones)? That would be great if they could.
I've installed Gemini formed plastic letters with that method which are still looking great 20 years later. You'll not find any foam letters which you can say that about.
posted
STYRO-foam Letters are right up there with magnets on my list of sorry materials I try to avoid. Again, Sign-Customer Education 101-requires that I interrogate the customer to find out if they are going to be used for INTERIOR purposes exclusively.
The HDU letters are fine, but I agree with the others about the Gemini letters. I order mine with the stud mount and I don't care that I have to drill the brick. It ain't that hard. Buy a good hammer-drill. You'll wonder how you got along with out it.
If you'll peruse the Gemini catalog, there is a whole detailed section somewhere in there about the mounting methods and step-by-step instructions for the entire procedure.
They will even make your mounting pattern for you, but I always make my own, because it does'nt take that much time and I feel more confident about the install.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sheila, I made a "temporary" set of the Blue Styrofoam letters MANY years ago. Primed them with latex of some sort, coated with enamels. These damn things lasted more than 20 years with little wear. Amazed me. I would definitely consider using them for another "cheap" dimensional job in the future.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gene, WOW! That is pretty amazing that the styrofoam letters lasted that long!! Were they thin dimensionally or somethin'??
I have used the same procedure plus more coats of primer & paint.
I dunno what all contributes to their demise here and disallows any reasonable guarantee for their life.
One thing for sure is, the birds. (Unless the letter is thin dimensionally) any thing two or more inches the birds will constantly be landin' on top them . . . once they discover a surface that they can sink their "claws" into it's over.
Then you can watch the letter disenegrate over the next few months/years because once they have pecked thru the paint and water gets in, it's pretty much over. . . . of course, they also like to build nests in the inviting places of the thicker letters, like the "R", . . .or have a 2-story house in a "B". LOL
Anyway. Hence my disdain for styrofoam outdoors.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Shiela, I think part of the reason you experienced failure of your styrofoam letters is because you are in the south, as opposed to Gene being in Pennsylvania. The sun plays havoc with all manner of signage. Drive further south, particularly in Fla. and you will see a steady stream of businesses that have decaying foam letters. When will they ever learn? Gemini makes a good product. Only difficulty I've ever had with the pad-style letters, especially the larger ones, is holding them in place until the silicone dries. I think on one job we cut tiny squares of the 3M mounting tape and stuck it on the corners of the plastic pads to hold them in place. Worked out ok.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I make a lot of letters out of a product called Versdur 3/8" or 1/2" thick PVC (solid and smooth not like the pvc you're used to using)...it cuts on a band saw (or jig saw) like butter.
It can be painted (with automotive centari)or a vinyl letter applied to its smooth surface.
You can "Pad" mount studs to the back side by cutting squares of the same material and tapping them to fit standard 3/16" aluminum mounting studs then mounting the pad and stud to back of the letter with plain old Plumbers PVC pipe cement (holds like iron).
I have letters all over this town (some of which are over 10 years old ) and they still look new.
Another way to mount them is to drill right thru the face and counter-sink the hole then use blue plastic plugs in the masonry blow out the holes and inject with adhesive of your chioce) place plug in the hole then inject adhesive again and screw letter in place.This makes for a good jam up mount that is next to impossible to remove without a pry device. Then simply cover the heads of the screws (I use #8 1 1/2" coated deck screws) with a vinyl dot that matchs the background.from the street you won't even see the mountings.
You can easily get over the price of Gemini if only because you have custom cut them.
Material runs about $130. a sheet and is avail. thru most plastic houses (Cope Plastics and Regal Plastics both handle it here.
E-mail me if you want more info.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Monte, that does sound like a pretty cool substrate.
I've used .080 aluminum the same way . . .and finish them with auto-paint and they still look brand new too . . . .but I think the reall attraction to the foam letters is that THICK letter look.
One particular job I did was for a day-care and those big, really thick, block letters had just the right look . . . and the birds thought so too . . .
I realize if I want that super thick look it's gotta be a can- letter or HDU . . .thicker letters..thicker wad of money's all I can tell 'em . ..
Dale, yeh I agree about the humidity and all to some extent . . .but that would tend to just mildew the letters...which could be cleaned off.
Remember, birds migrate to the south and land everywhere.
It's their feets and their beaks that open up the protective paint surface exposing the degradeable material inside.
The rain, bird-water & do-do then begin eating the letters from the inside out.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Yeah, the mildew is a problem; but what I'm talking about is the total breakdown and disintegration of the styrofoam. This is usually from, like you say, the paint film being broken; or just a cheapo paint job (or no paint at all) that is exposed to the ultraviolet rays of the sun. Doesn't take long, then it looks like a bunch of sea sponges stuck on the wall.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Sheila et al, I don't mean to recommend the blue styro letters for long term, but they can last quite a while and fill a gap in the difference between vinyl and HDU signs. The particular letters I'm talking about were 2" foam. The customer "thought" he would only be in this location a year or so, that's why we went cheap. 20yrs later, he finally moved. The styrofoam is the blue (or pink) insulation type for houses, not the white "foam cup" type, and not the yellow sheet/foil type.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I thought when you first got here, a little over a month and almost 400 posts ago, that you said you were considering going into the sign business. Didn't you also say your dad quit the business 15 years ago? So if your dad was out of it and you haven't opened a shop yet, how did you have and use a gemini catalog 7 years ago?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Thanks very much everybody for all the swell suggestions about foam letters.
Sorry for the numerous posts...I think I misunderstood the flavor of this BB...A very friendly BB user actually gave me a personal (long distance) phone call and explained the various ways my numerous posts could be irritating others...many thanks to the wise and friendly letterhead (I don't know if he would want his name publicly associated with this or not...so I leave him anonymous)...all I can do is apologize...I shall curtail my posting.
I did start a sign business about 7 or 8 years ago; it lasted for 2 years...I made $2000 profit in those 2 years...I accumulated $8000 or $9000 in credit card debt, too...it was a miserable failure. During that time I had a Gemini catalog and USED it to determine that I did NOT want to purchase letters from them for whatever job it was that I was considering using them for. (I don't think I realized that those were RETAIL prices...that might have made a difference to me.)
Were there a few purchases made from Gemini or other wholesalers at times when there was no actual business owned by me or my dad? Well...maybe there was and maybe there wasn't. .
Hope that clarifies things. Sorry for the confusion that leaving out my past attempt at a business has caused (this is not the first time a question has arisen over the matter). Frankly, I try to forget that first attempt.
Also, my brain has never kept up with the order of past events very well...so sometimes I may make confusing statements. I also sometimes make general statements that might contradict one or two specific details.
ALL you guys (without exception) have been a big help with the many questions I have brought up...thanks...and once again, sorry for making a nuisance of myself with my negligent postings.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I got white Foam letters here . they been up for almost 10 years, and they STILL look like new.. Only had to repaint them once..
And, there are no bird pecks here. I am just norf of New orleans,, Deep South.
Theres lots of Foam around here ..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I've got to jump in here. Frank and Si's posts in the above topic really bother me. The fact that Si is one of my best friends makes this particularly hard.
Over the past couple weeks, I've been IM'ed, e-mailed and phoned about William. Some feel he is not for real. That's happened in the past and is always a valid concern. It's vital that we do all we can to ensure people are who they say and the information offered is honest.
At this point, I have no evidence that William is not for real. Mike Sheehan and Joe Pribish live in Pensacola. Mike knew Bill's Dad and Joe knows William as competition. The problem as I understand it, is the sheer number of posts William has made in the short time he has been here. I'm also aware that some just dislike him and find him annoying. The resulting conflict has divided us in chat and is causing me all sorts of stress. It's time we talked about it.
My version of Letterheads includes everyone. It don't matter what skill level you are at, what your political or religious beliefs are, your skin color, sexual preference or nationality. If you are interested in learning and helping others preserve the best of our "industry," you are more than welcome at our on-line community of Letterheads we call Letterville.
Having said that, I am also aware that not all agree with what I just said. That's ok. The important thing is that everyone knows where Steve and Barb Shortreed stand. We've been blessed to be able to earn a living from this website for several years. It's vital all our supporters know what sort of people own and manage Letterville.
Some of you have suggested I need to be a better manager and deal with "unpopular people" in a firmer manner. Some suggest a limit on posts. Others just want those they dislike to magically go away. A few have even warned me of a mass exodus of longtime supporters, some who support Letterville finanically as Residents if some sort of action isn't taken.
Tough stuff! Even tougher when some of these same people are personal friends that have opened their homes and hearts to us in the past. To be honest, I'm not sure if I feel more anger or disappointment over all of this. Is this the opinion of a handful in chat or a general feeling? Is Letterville truly bringing people together or serving as a tool to divide? Are we going to show some tolerance towards each other or qualify each new user on their personality and likeability? Do we need to appoint a committee to decide what posts are dumb, what posters are "annoying?" If that's the Letterville you really want, I'll be more than glad to hang a "For Sale" sign on the website and call it a day.
I can hear someone saying "All this over one person? It's just silly!"
In just over a year, Letterville will be 10 years old. During that time, we have banned 3 people from the website. They were using this Forum to personally attack each other. I did not enjoy that, but I am not going to sit back and allow something I created to be used as a tool to publically insult, humiliate or attempt to hurt another. No apologies.
There's a few others, some that I know personally, that have stopped posting, or have never made a post out of fear of rejection. They feel threatened because of their lack of experience and/or skill level might result in critism or someone "jumping all over them." Anyone who has ever felt left out of the "fun crowd" will understand this feeling. I know I do.
I've never met or talked to William yet. Time will tell if he is sincere in his desire to persue the sign business and get involved in Letterheads. It's important me that he is who and what he claims, but I don't have to personally like him in order to share Letterville with. I prefer to end up with egg on my face before doing something that goes against my heart.
This is a post I wish I never had to make. Letterville is a very personal and special place to me. The last few days have been very stressful. I'm hoping this post results in some sort of closure.
If my decision results in some of you leaving, I want to wish you all the best and assure you the door is always open.
There is all sorts of good info about Gemini and other prefabricated letters in this topic. At this point, I'm going to close this thread and start a new one. Helpful comments and suggestions are always welcome. Personal attacks and/or mean spirited posts are not.
[ October 10, 2004, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
Topic Closed
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