posted
Most of us are familiar with Mike Jackson's Signcraft article in which he so eloquently articulated the 'Gary Anderson" theory. I have read it many times and agree with it whole heartedly.
But there are still some folks who insist that it wouldn't work in their town, or that they live in a rural setting with no real town about them.
Wanting to stay in a particular area for personal reasons IS reasonable. And I understand it too. But if you are in a depressed or rural type area you have to get real creative in how you approach business. If you don't, its going to mean you earn little more than a subsistence living.
But there are a few things you have to do to make it in this type market. First off, 'normal', run of the mill work won't get you far. ANd chances are you will have some yokel down the street who will offer to do it for less than what is reasonable.
You have to think bigger... and better.
Why just do business within a 'reasonable driving distance'? Especially if the area you are in has a limited market for the high end work. If I were to do that I would leave a tremendous amount of money on the table.
Back when I had a 'normal' sign shop we offered ONLY design and sandblasted and dimensional signs. Quite simply, I turned down the plain old flat painted boards even though we did have a fair amount of call for them. I sent the folks who insisted on this style work down the road to my competition. I didn't WANT to do them and even more importantly didn't want to be known for that type work.
We did a good sign business too. And our work became known far and wide. I got requests from up to a thousand miles away for logo design and signage. And to my knowlege I never had to compete for the work either. It wasn't about price.
I also specialized in historical murals. I traveled many, many thousands of miles for that work and did over a 100 murals to date. This work also wasn't about price.
During this time we lived in Chemainus, Brtish Columbia, population 3,500. When we moved there it wasn't much of a town but we with the help of others there we created a tourist attraction which ultimately had over 400,000 visitors each year. Build it and they will come. We did it on a shoestring budget too. It was about hard work and sweat, not government handouts and grants or big business.
Since then we've moved to a much smaller town (Yarrow - population 1,100) and business continues to thrive. We've only done three jobs (design only)locally in the last four years with the exception of our own projects (Giggle Ridge and our own shop/studio). The primary purpose of our own projects (aside from the giggles they give us) is to be a showcase for our work... no sane client would ever go to these extremes. But I can't expect to sell this type work unless I show I personally believe in this type quality. I put my money where my mouth is.
It works beyond my wildest expectations and I have a ton of fun in the process. Best of all I get to live the dream.
If I wanted to do more 'normal' type sign work (and I do give it serious thought from time to time) I'd change my business considerably from what it is now. I'd still do outrageous work - only on a much smaller scale. Monumental signage is something I'd tackle. I'd go after the fancy gold and glass work. Very high end dimensional carved signage would be another type work I'd give a go. And dimensional plasma cut and welded sculptural signage would definitely be on the menu. Plus a few other things I haven't yet though of... none of it 'ordinary'.
I'd certainly be available for these types of work on a local basis, but I wouldn't limit myself to that market. It's much too small. I think it wouldn't take long to become known all over for the type of work I'd want.
I suspect my market area would actually grow considerably from what it is now. After all, you can ship smaller (than I do now) works of art and signage just about anywhere. With the benefit of a top knotch website and modern technology there's no limit of what might be accomplished.
And I still would turn down flat signage. There's lots of folks EVERYWHERE who do that type work.
I think you can live just about anywhere and do well if you tackle it right. It's about doing absolutely top knotch work, and nothing less.
Build it and they will come. And you will get to charge top dollar for it too.
-dan
[ October 01, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Man Dan, I'm glad you said all that. I'm working on a project now to show this little city I live in, what can happen...thanks for the extra inspiration!
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Dan- Any article you know of in a certain publication about what you all did in Chemainus, British Columbia, making it such a tourist spot?
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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Dan, I always enjoy your post. You always inspire me. I am in the process of doing a sign for a Catholic Youth Group building called the "NET" This is an organization that my sons are active in. I was contacted by our priest to make a new sign to mirror the one I did for the church. I insisted on doing the sign for cost only, and I could have easily gone the simple "flat vinyl" route, but instead, I decided to try and throw out "all the stops", and use it as an oportunuty to get creative. I was given free reign on design and construction. This job is getting the creative juices flowing. I will post some pic's as it starts to come together. I am also in a very small area, and there is only one other sign artist in town that does my type of work, and her work is top notch in all aspects. It is nice to see the community with fancy signs. The work is coming in by word of mouth more than anything. You are right,...If you build it, they will come. Thanks again, Bob K.
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dan, The Gary Anderson Theory was written for the chronic whiners who will tell you "you can't sell that kind of work here". Actually, they are saying "I can't sell that kind of work here", a big difference they can't see. My theory basically says that if there is a "chance" Gary Anderson (from an average anytown USA city) could come to their town and do what he does there, then the problem isn't with the town and the market. The problem is with the signmaker who simply can't or won't make the effort...opting for the cheap excuse.
Your version of the theory is the exact same theory. Dedication, talent, drive and enthusiasm drive your business—and you customers respect it. The Theory, as I originally wrote it, isn't restricted to dimensional, flat, or layered signs. It was meant to make the chronic complainer evaluate their situation and possibly hightlight their own shortcomings. None of them are willing to work as hard as Gary to learn their craft, hone their design skills, build a morge and library, polish their selling skills, and build a world class portfolio and showroom. The chronic complainers seem to think those skills and traits should be a God given gift--deserved but not earned. Without those assets, when they say, "I (actually saying they) can't sell that kind of work here", they are actually correct.
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dan, I'm certain that I don't currently possess the skill and knowledge that you have. But I do take much pride in my workmanship and in the skills that I do have. I can build most anything out of wood, HDU, some metals and plastics. I built my showroom, and house from the foundation up. The shop has a vaulted ceiling, lots of cabinets, ceramic tile floors, textured sheetrock walls, lots of receptacles etc. I did the framing, wiring, plumbing, insulation, drywall, siding, flooring, roofing, and some of the HVAC. http://www.webbsignstudio.com/html/profile.html I also built my house from the foundation up the same way. The two story 4 br 2b house features dormers, a fireplace, spiral stairs, huge bay windows, kneewall closets, a built-in- dormer Jacuzzi, tile floors in all the bathromms and kitchen and a big porch(got to have a porch in the South). I just finished setting the tile and installing the faucets around the Jacuzzi and am presently working on the stone facing around the fireplace (another new thing for me). The house will also feature a "built out" entertainment center beside (but not adjacent to) the fireplace. In other words the stereo, TV, bookcase and wood storage box will be enclosed outside the back wall of the living room (can't stand taking up room in the living room). My Wife and I designed the floorplan to maximize useable space with no hallways. The only thing resembling a hall is the balcony at the top of the stairwell. Everything was designed, built and installed by my Wife and I except the main plumbing and pulling the wires. I think the worst part was hauling all that stuff out through the doors of Home Depot and Lowes.
Why did we do all this? For several reasons. First, for the past 18 years we have been a one income family and I just simply could not afford a house mortgage and din't want an "FHA" house either. Second, having painful past experience with contractors I feel better do things myself(Incidently, I culled through hundreds of boards looking for straight ones: I do that for my customers too). Third I just enjoy building things, especially carpentry. Having the opportunity to learn these skills has given me much experience which can be used in making signs.
Anyway, one thing I do lack is selling ability. So, I'm about to send over this quote for a 6'x4' 2 sided, sandblasted HDU sign. In my opinion, if made of HDU, this sign will need to have two rectangular steel tubing enclosed accross the sign horizontally, parallel to each other, between a sandwitch of two sheets of 1.5''. 15# HDU , laminated with epoxy. Telescoping steel feet would extend out the sides for mounting to the posts. (learned this from Monte Jumper, thanks again Monte) I just don't have any confidence in a two sided HDU sandblasted sign of this size done any other way. Now, my price is going to be $4,625.50 for the HDU. Along with it, I will send a quote on the same size sign made from clear heart vertical grain redwood at a cost of $3,754.57. I would not recommend the redwood over the HDU because of durability issues but, because of the process I use, do guarantee my redwodd panels not to warp or delaminate. Why is the redwood less? because it's one 1.5'' panel and the HDU is two, and will be much more durable.
My question: since they WILL most likely gasp at the price, and shop around, what would increase my chances of landing this job? I need this job. I have bid on three nice sandblast jobs in the last 2 weeks that someone else must have gotten. How do you turn the customer's priority from price to quality? When "PRICE" is the first thing out of their mouths? How d you steer the conversation away from "price"?
I know some will say, "produce better quality work". I feel that I have already done that. For example, I quoted a job for several sandblasted signs for a doctor's office last year. Several of my signs were already within blocks of this location. They saw the quality of my work. Someone got the job for A THIRD of what I quoted. Next time I'm over there, which may be today, I will post pics of what they got. On another, the customer wanted a new sandblasted city entrance sign. The one they had was coming apart so badly that you could stick a finger through some of the joints and it wasn't very old. My redwood signs do not come apart like that. The guy was nice until he looked at the price on my quote. Then his demeanor abruptly changed. He treated me like I was a thief. I didn't get that job either. This is one of my HDU city entrance signs: http://www.webbsignstudio.com/html/sandcarved_16.html On another, their sign had been laminated improperly with adjacent battens of diagonal grain being in the same direction. The sign panel cupped like a rocking chair rocker. MY panels do not do that either/. Why? Because I know and care about what I'm doing. The customers can see my work anywhere through out several counties. But in these instances, price won over quality. I wonder if they are happy with the results?
So, I'm a whiner. Once again, what do I need to do to sell this job?
[ October 01, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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You nailed it once again with these few words Mike
quote:...work as hard as Gary to learn their craft, hone their design skills, build a morge and library, polish their selling skills, and build a world class portfolio and showroom.
If one can do these few things in any medium... wood, signfoam, glass, metal, gold whatever... then you can design, build and sell as much work as you can produce AND get top dollar for it. No matter where you live.
Build it and they will come.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wayne why wait for them to gasp? Did you ever find out what they could or would spend in the first place?
Quoting a job without knowing the clients budget will cause you to lose more jobs than you will get. Prequalify them first before wasting your time in the hope that they will buy your sign.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
quote:I know some will say, "produce better quality work". I have already done that. For example, I quoted a job for several sandblasted signs for a doctor's office last year. Several of my signs were already within blocks of this location. They saw the quality of my work. Someone got the job for A THIRD of what I quoted. Next time I'm over there, which may be today, I will post pics of what they got. Price won over quality. But I wonder if they are happy with the results?
So once again, what do I need to do to sell this job?
You won't win every job. I certainly don't. And I try not to sweat it.
quote:How do you turn the customer's priority from price to quality? When "PRICE" is the first thing out of their mouths? Should you immediately steer the conversation away from "price"
I took a look at your work on your website Wayne. Nice work. My advice to you would be to rachet up your quality one more notch. Take the little extra time to design even fancier work. Invest in some Mike Jackson and David Butler vector details. Add these to your work. Study Gary Anderson's work, and you will pick up some great ideas for more color.
Take a look through back issues of SignCraft and pick out ideas that will make your work brighter and even more appealing. Cruise websites of some of the great designers here.
Some gold leaf work would also add a great deal of sparkle to your already good work. By bringing the level of your work even higher you will take yourself above the level of your competition and in the process take your customers out of price consideration alone.
If you work hard at it you HAVE this ability. I take exception with your statement...
quote:I'm certain that I don't currently possess the skill and knowledge that you have. But I do take much pride in my workmanship and in the skills that I do have.
I may have a few more years of experience but from what you say you have lots of your own and the determination to go through with projects.
A while back I had a customer ask me how I could possibly save him money. I looked him straight in the eye and told him that my purpose was to spend his money not save it and spend as much of it as I could possibly get. I also reminded him that it was also my job to give him as much value as I could for that same money.
I know what I need to produce my work. It isn't cheap by any means. And occasionally I get price shoppers who consider that factor alone. If that is their only priority they are in the wrong place.
I look at it this way. I may talk to 400 folks each year who 'claim' they want some of my work. No problem... talk is cheap. I talk with them and when a general discussion of prices come up I can see that look in their eyes pretty quick. 90 percent are gone in that first brief conversation. They weren't really serious about BUYING my work.
That leaves 40 of the original 400 people who may actually come back for a more serious discussion. Probably 10 of these are just kicking tires... throwing out ideas for future consideration. They are entepreneurs and they might be serious down the road if things come togeter.
Of the 30 left 10 of them try hard but can't get their act together and they fall by the wayside.
Once we get a little serious half of the folks left decide that they don't really want the kind of work we produce and decide they might get it cheaper elsewhere. No problem.
10 of the original 400 go through the design stage. And pay for the privilege. Of these only four will actually get to the build phase. Our projects tend to be large and complex and costly. The folks who drop out may have their financial circumstances change, other business concerns, have trouble with finances... whatever. Stuff happens.
And I get to do four projects with no holds barred... pull out the stops. go for the gusto. Even so, while few jobs I get to do are to the point I really want to take them, most are still way over the top by most standards. And in making myself happy I get to exceed my customer's expecations.
To TOTALLY satisfy my own creative needs I tackle a project or two FOR MYSELF each year. These are the most outrageous of all. These projects raise the bar and are the ones I highlight in my portfolio. These ones are also the ones that sell the work I want to produce.
Quite simply put - you can't win them all. Choose your projects carefully and the ones you do win, make sure they work for you in the future.
It doesn't come easy, or without hard work and patience.
Hang in there.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wayne, you raised a really good question that I'll not ignore. . . .which was basically, "
"How do you place the priority and focus on the QUALITY over price?."
My reply is a quicky-review of any successful, confident, sales person's attitude:
~There is a wonderful quote: MOTIVATION: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"
ACTION-IDEA: PUT THAT ON YOUR VEHICLE. IN YOUR SHOW ROOM. ON YOUR BUSINESS CARD/LETTERHEAD.
RESULT: People will begin to understand this as they watch their signs deteriorate.
All I can offer is that, ocassionaly, you have to keep stressing this quality issue to some clients.
What is their response when you look them right in the eye and ask them WHY their sign is falling apart??
What is their reply when you say yeh I'm charging much more but I promise you that the work I do will out perform what you've been getting and in the long run you will save money.
ACTION-IDEA: DON'T WASTE TIME BEING APOLOGETIC FOR YOUR PRICES - BE AGGRESSIVE ABOUT YOUR CONFIDENCE IN THE PRODUCT.
Wayne, I think these are just "selling points".
MOTIVATION - THE SIGN IS SOLD: I think we've all found that in this business, you really don't have to convince anyone to buy a sign. They already WANT & NEED a sign. But you may have to PUSH quality a little until people realize that quality DOES save money.
Try a different outlook.
~Do NOT be afraid to compare a long lasting sign of yours to the one the customer has thats falling apart. ~Don't be afraid to give a somewhat detailed explaination as to why. Sometimes people just don't realize WHY you are charging more. Tell them about the materials you use. Tell them you use a better paint product and the steps that you take during the process and how that effects the life of the sign.
Here's an example: I just re-did a sand-blasted sign that had two rot-holes in it, and paint was peeling like crazy off this thing, almost ever since it was brand new. The owner was finally told by a coupl'a people he should just get aluminum signs to screw onto it.
He finally called me, after yet another referal... (I been watchin' that sign go down for years..they'd redo it and in a few months it would be peelin' again) but he'd heard I was gettin' to be too "high dollar").
After close inspection of the offending panel, I explained IN DETAIL to him why the sign was failing, and exactly how I would repair it and why and what he could expect: That the sign would LAST a long time.
He gave me the job, and actually I could have charged a lot more, but it's ok. I have won his TRUST. When I started tellin' him what to do when it needs touchin' up someday, he interupted and said, "I'm gonna call YOU." This was for his church, but he also runs a marine biz.
ACTION-IDEA: NOTICE, EXPLAIN and FOLLOW THRU ON HOW YOU BRING YOUR SEVICES TO THE DIRECT NEEDS OF THE CUSTOMER
MOTIVATION: LETTING THE CUSTOMER KNOW YOU ARE ON THEIR SIDE.
RESULT: WIN THEIR TRUST
Soemtimes time is all it takes. As time goes on and they SEE your work out performing other signs.
But more often than not a sincere belief in one's abilties and a committment to follow through with promises is all it takes to win the trust of the customer, because they have been burned already.
Another trust-winning example:
I have gotten more incredulous thank you's just for lookin' out for people in this way:
Customer wants a sign painted on the building. One or two quick, info-gathering questions and I find out they are only renting and hope to move within at least 2 years to a new building.
All I do is mention that they could do the sign on panel(s) and then they can take it with them when they leave and save the investment.
Some sign people actually think this is stupid. HEY, you COULD"A got another job later!!" Customers have even said as much, but right there the bond of trust is established. They almost ALWAYS call back with additional work, or for me to move the sign when they get their new building.
The thing is, by bein' dedicated to the customer's needs you HAVE plenty of work.
Many customers have been trained to beleive that everything we do for them is for our benefit in the future.
IE: "I'll sell them this crap now and they'll have to call me soon to re-do it"
My whole premise is: "I'll sell them the best I have and when they get ready for OTHER signage, or asked about their sign, I'll be numero uno on their list"
Wayne, sorry so lengthy . .I'm very passionate about these issues
posted
Bob, I'm one step ahead of you there. Been there, tried that. Probably 98% of the people I ask that question, act like I'm sticking my hand in their pocket while I'm saying it. Most people so far have declined. The mentality seems to be: If I tell him that, he'll jack the price up to that. All signs are the same. The signs are back there on his shelf waiting for me with the sticker price on it
They seem to have no concept that many variables determine the cost of a sign.
I had a lady awhile back asking for a banner. She wanted it to say "Jesus". I asked her about what size she needed. Said I had some of different sizes and showed her the box with a 2x6 inside. She wanted the box opened. I opened the box and showed her the banner material. She wanted the whole banner pulled out. I said that was what the whole banner looked like, it was just a blank banner. She says: Oh...it don't say "Jesus" on it?
That's what I've got to deal with man.
Help me out, what is the proper way to ask them their budget?
Dan, Thanks for the advice. I'v already done a gold leaf job for a customer and need a sample for the showroom.(samples are high priority)I am preparing to delve into some more experiments which have been put off because of the house construction and all:
I have a new brick/stone/tile saw (bought for doing the house tile), a new airbrush I want to play with, want to build a stone monument sign in front of my store and do some more hand carving.
Thanks again
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Wayne, I too have problems getting the customer to tell me their budget. 1 approach that I've used a few times & had success with is this:
I explain to them that if I don't have an idea what they can afford to spend, and I come up with a sign quote for them that is a very basic sign and costs less than their budget that I've really cheated them out of the nicer sign they could afford which would also benefit their business more. If I come up with an elaborate sign that is way beyond their pursestrings, then all we've done is waste their time and mine, both of which are valuable. They still may not want to give you a dollar amount, so ask them ballparks. Would 5k be something you could do? What about 3? Tell them you understand it's a large check to write but this isn't just a sign, it's the first impression their business will make on potential customers.
I haven't lied to them, I haven't made them feel like I'm trying to sell them and I'm focusing on their interests, not just mine. This builds the trust that Sheila spoke of. I'm no longer just "trying to sell a sign" in their eyes.
Once I get a budget amount, I generally like to do the 3 tier pricing. Say their budget is "about $1000". Give them an option of say $900, $1000 and for only an additional $200 more we could do the name in gold leaf and a thin border stripe in gold to make the sign "pop" even more. In all the times I've ever done the 3 tier, I've only ever sold the lowest tier 1 time (used car dealer, need I say more?).
I hate doing the sales part. But once I get over the dread feeling, I take a few minutes to talk to the customer like a human being not a salesperson. That makes a big difference.
I also hate doing the "bids" because generally they look only at price and you don't get the opportunity to discuss the job with them. When you get a request for a bid (where you know they're getting several bids), ask when would be a good time to discuss the job with them or a good time to drop off the bid. I try NOT to fax them the quote for this reason. I only fax it if I already spoke extensively with the customer and the printed estimate is just a formality.
And it doesn't hurt to explain that you use only high quality materials, etc. If they buy a sign out of lower quality (make sure the word quality is used) because it costs 1/2 the price, but only lasts 1/2 as long, have they saved anything? If they think buying 2 $200 signs that last 2 yrs each is costing them the same as 1 sign for $400 that last 4 years, ask them how much time they've invested into the sign buying process.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Thanks Chris, Asking for customer's budgets has been like hitting a brick wall so many times that I have become ashamed to do it any more. I'll honestly make an effort to try again. I honestly do have trouble communicating my intentions sometimes. The usual scenario is that the customer tells me "you sure do beautiful work" How much does a wood sign like that(pointing to a sample) cost"? Then they want a sign "this big" and usually out of "the wood", I quote some measurements, punch in the numbers and give them a price on a sign "that big" and they turn white around the gills while relieving the stress through primeval utterances such as WHEW! or SHEW!. Then we drop down to a metal sign. I get the "I'll talk to my wife" and they head on down to the shop down the street who makes cheaper metal signs out of cheap intermediate vinyl.
On the quote I sent in yesterday, I was given specific measurements, graphic content, color etc. So I pretty much had to just give them a redwood price and an HDU price on the same design. I faxed over the quotes and gave them a call. There was no answer but I also faxed over a note asking them to call me. I'm sure they're taking bids so I need to explain what they are getting for that price. They did mention that they had trouble in the past with their logo being reproduced exactly. I assured them that I have absolutely no problem with that.
If they don't call Monday, I'll call them.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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