posted
Nice job Si. I see you decided to get their arses outta bed an hour earlier while you wuz at it. Layout looks great, but I gotta ask, assuming there IS a method to your madness, what was the reasoning that got the "(909) 7 TARGET" to end up where it did? ...
posted
...well he did a fine job... something, as this lengthy topic confirms, that all of us have to do quite often. That number just looked so wanting to be centered to the line above it... that I figured there had to be some reasoning I was missing.
posted
I totally agree with Dan in the fact that literature vs signs should and ought to be designed differently, because they are read differently.
I've seen alot of signmaker biz cards or literature with huge secondary print where the card or ? in whole would be much more pleasing to look at if the text was smaller and more subdued. Nettie is VERY good at secondary copy tweeked to perfection!
On the other hand, some of my earlier card designs have some of the text so darn small I can't readem' with my 40ish year old eyes any longer!
posted
Well, unless you're an airbrush artist you look 20ish, not 40ish anyway. I agree with my Father. Its not usual to find a Graphic Artist in the sign business, but it IS usual to find Graphic Designer and a sign artist as being one in the same. And Donna is right too. They're actually different worlds and different education. If Dad hadn't burned out in the Graphics industry at 30something he'd never have been in the sign business. I, for one, am glad he burned out. I know I'd never be carving if things hadn't gone that direction.
posted
I believe that both are different. I am trained as a sign painter, but I also do graphic design. I would not have done well in graphic design had I not taken the time to learn the rules for printed work. In that same token I know a trained graphic designer now doing signs, and it was the same for her. Design is more on the person.Imagimation is what I look for in a designer. Skills can be taught but as for raw ideas thats talent.
posted
I couldn't have done either at all if I hadn't read Mike Steven's book. I'm a science/math guy. Mike's book is the only one that broke designing down into actual CONCEPTS.
Here's a few.
Text should follow the rythym of the format (extended format = extended text)
Graphic relationship: graphic units (anything on the format) will look related to whatever they are nearest...be that another word, letter, the format edge. A well-placed dot or line can help connect two units and keep them from accidentally being associated with an unrelated element.
Stroke width is used to make things look near or far (important or less important)
A panel is a sub-format.
If you don't put enough negative space around an element...the element will make the negative space more readable than the element.
Supergraphics break all the rules.
There's casual, script, and formal fonts. These can be divided into either display or text (some can do both).
I could on and on...but you oughta buy the book.
My .02...I haven't much experience...but I have used his concepts on vans, truck, yard signs, business cards, logo design, magazine ad designs, and post cards, and building signs. Print stuff, architectural stuff, sign stuff, vehicle stuff...
If I hadn't read Mike's book, each layout would have been a tremendous, pain-staking, weeks-long work that ended in confused failure and occasionaly misunderstood success. (Of course, after the first one, no one would have asked again.)
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Wow.....! I wish I could have all of you to help me do a sign design workshop at the upcoming "Harvest Moon" event. I see a lot of progessive adventurous thoughts and ideas about the subject. Most of all I hope to be helpful to the many new folks who have a slight degree of the "ART" side of sign design. I will say this though, I have gone many times in the past to my morgue of ideas that were ripped right off of labels at the grocery store and stuff that struck my eye from newspaper and magazine ads.
Hmmm!
CrazyJack, still lernin'
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I can't put into words what my inner eye perceives and how I can't reach a harmonious conclusion without visual intimacy in my relationships whether personal by nature or graphic.
My lust is for balance between the negative and the positive inner space of my creative universe. I only seek an orgasmic conclusion to the melding of the infinite variables that go into the graphics realm whether design or sign.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Years ago when I made my living primarily as an illustrator and graphic artist I had the chance to talk in depth with a 'genuine schooled' artist. He was a good friend and someone whose work I admire to this day.
I'm self taught... a learn it by doing kind of guy. I know what looks good to me through experience. And I've probably made just about every design mistake there is at one time or another.
Anyway... this schooled artist (with a genuine diploma and everything)gave me an honest critique of my work in an art show I was doing. He analized each piece, telling me what worked and what didn't and why. Mostly he, clearly articulated what I did instinctively. He talked of color balance, layout, hues, tones and all that stuff I still don't know much about.
I think those of us with years in the business and a passion to learn and do pick up by osmosis or reading, much like we would learn a new computer program. We go to the keyboard with a book or two and figure it out while we work on various paying projects.
Some are fortunate enough to have spent a few years in a good school learning these same things in a more formal way. When I was considering formal school I instead made a concious decision to get my learning in through hands-on experience in my own business.
At the end of it all I believe that those with the most passion will go the furthest. Simply put, education or years of experience isn't going to necessarily make you a wonderful designer. Passion combined with talent and hands-on experience in one form or another will take you above the rest.
-dan
[ September 28, 2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've read throuyght your post a bunch of times trying to figure out exactly what you said. I still haven't a clue, but I believe you nailed it.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I don't know what Bob said either, but it sounds like it ought to be worth a lot of money. Somebody would realy Ooh and Ahh after a statement like that. Hopefully, it would be the person writing the check.
Hey, that may be the difference! If you can talk like Bob then you are a Graphic Designer.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
This seems to be very "debatable" topic, and some very interesting & useful opinions. I too have had many so called "designers" dictate the layout for a job i knew was wrong or "weak" for my customers benefit & success-that's the bottom line, right? There successful...were successful, repeat business & referrals etc.
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Been doing sign for a few years now, most of what I do I design. Done many a logo, sign system,and many business cards and printed things. My training is in signs. My printed stuff is weak.
When I see a real strong piece of printed material, with each element well designed, my attention is captured and I want to study and analize it and learn from it.
After reading this series of comments, I must conclude that Rick Chavez has taught me much on this subject and I respect his knowledge and perspective.
I hope he invests the time to drive up from the desert and attend Harvest Moon so I can meet him.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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