posted
I hope the title said it. I will be handlettering and painting a graphic onto a truck using 1-Shot (I am NOT buying another brand of paint for this customer, it WILL be 1-Shot). The customer says he will then clear-coat it. My questions: Won't a lacquer clear-coat lift the 1-Shot? I've heard of "misting" a few coats first, to seal, and then final coating. Should I add something to my 1-Shot to give it a better chance with the clear-coating? I've noticed mention here of a "hardener". I don't want to make my painting any more difficult though. Will that cause brushing problems? How long before he can coat it? Thanks.
[ September 25, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Part of the trick is makin' sure that the paint is COMPLETELY cured. This could be done by sittin' in the sun for a while or by even getting it to the body shop in a dryer booth. Whereever there is ANY uncured paint, a clear will make it wrinkle.
Ax me how I know . . . It WILL make you cry for a minute.
But Laquer will eat it anyway, I think you need to use eurathane. Lite coats are always better.
However, other than a little "interior" type signage clearin', it has been a while since I cleared a vehicle and I'm ALWAYS nervous about it.
And I been workin' on the same kind'a job this week for a radio station van. Somewhat of a rush too for the State fair. Finished all the letterin' today. Went to survey materials for the up-coming clear and found I'm out. lol...that's how long it's been . . .
those darn vinyl months...makes me haft'a re-learn stuff all over.
Two of the One-shot hand painted logos are 4 years old but needed considerable touchin' up. One logo had to be entirely removed and replaced with a brand new design he wanted... Logos for 3 stations are on both sides and the back.
I will scuff the entire areas to be cleared. I may wait a coupl'a weeks and have him bring it back. Since he is havin' a door repaired next week, mabey they will bake the whole van for us.
I won't use my regular paint gun for this but an airless sprayer where I feel can totally control the amount of clear goin' on ...the 3 logos are only about about 2'x4' on the large sides.
You haf'ta use hardner in the eurathane. I will most likely spray a fine coat, let it cure and sand before the next coat. I might do this 3 times unless Gavin comes on here and tells me I'm an idiot
PS: Oh yeh. You can put a coupl'a drops of hardner in the Oneshot say, in a little cup of Oneshot. I also use the mid-temp reducer in it as well. But note that your blending time on the graphic work might be reduced a tad as well...not a biggie as I will drop a lil mineral spirits in to compensate for drag, LOL I use Nason brand automotive paints now as they are about as good and reasonabley priced as the more expensive brands. I used to use Centari.
I have a "customer rushes to clear" horror story on another post like this somewhere . . . after I tol' him to WAIT or BAKE. . . . (I got paid three times: the initial job, the removal of the mess and the relettering
posted
Gene,...if you intend to top coat one shot with an automotive ueathane top coat you need to add hardener,...I would suggest using one shot's brand. It is best to let the one shot cure overnite and or longer if possible and then you do not want to "wet" or "flood" the initial coat just dusting the clear a couple of times before the final "wet" coat.
Buy some one shot hardener and read the instructions.
hope this helps,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Gene.... I told ya that you need to get to a meet! They have all kinds of 1-Shot products to learn about and play with at them. I'd add the hardener and do the lettering, then wait at least a week and do what the other folks say. Wrinkles suck, whether they're on your face or your dress jeans or your sign job. Love.....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I just did extensive graphics on my own truck, a lot of which was One Shot with hardener. Good Stuff.
Then I clear coated it, the clear went on fine. Funny how it goes sometimes. Just before The truck, I spray painted a trailer for my father in law, same exact spot on my driveway. It was summer, breeze blowing, neighbor mowing his lawn with a ride-on mower, upwind. Bugs in the air, all this while working on a dry gravel driveway.
Flawless, glossy paint job. Like I said, my truck went well too. But there have been times when under much more controlled conditions, I got worse results. Beats me.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
No not gonna say anyone is an idiot,just that clearing over it can be ppretty much a hit or miss proposition at times...one shot likes to say to keep their catalyst at about 10% of final ratio,and the clear you put on top of it will be at abouta beginning minimum of 20-25%-50% catalyst depending on what brand/series of clear you use,not to mention some clears are gonna require a reducer/solvent to be able to spray so it stands to say you have two different strength levels and 2 differing levels of aggression and other things working with each other there....try to get that ratio exact/close as you can and try not to rely on the 1-2 drops method because depending on ths size of the drops and amt of paint you have you can easily be underdosing it or even over dosing it and your cure time is gonna go all to hell. Hit the search button with this topic and you'll find more stuff than could be offered here for sure. I will add this much of $.02....the catalyst to me is certainly worth using for a number of reasons but i dont know that i would necessarily use it just because your customer wants to clear it after the fact........dont stress over it,if he ruins it after you do your thing thats his problem not yours and make sure he understands that going in. From dealing with this every day I would make him absolutely no guarantees catalyzed or not....because what he tells you hes gonna do and what he actually does will without a doubt be 2 different things,esp once he starts lifting it by piling clear on and is looking to blame you because he's impatient.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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The safest way through the job you described is to add One Shot hardener to your paints, do the letering and graphics and let dry for a couple of days. You can then use the One Shot UV Clearcoat in either liquid or aerosol form to coat the work. One Shot also makes a 2 part Urethane Clear Overcoat (UCO) designed to provide more durability, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it on a vehicle yet.
Automotive clears are either chemical or physical in how they bond to a surface. The wrong one will lift and "cottage cheese" the lettering and art. Never assume the customer knows which clearcoat is right.
Considering the risks of what an automotive clear can do to damage the work, I'd go this route every time.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Well, Gene, with everyone mentioning the dreaded "W" word in some form, don't you feel better??
( . . . .In Letterville . . everyone waits with baited breath to find out if Gene's beautiful paint job will get WRINKLES
PS: I've never tried the Oneshot clear either. In what way is it different form Auto-eurethane clear? If it's because it's not as "harsh" or "strong", exactly how long before it begins to fail? Does it turn yellow eventually? Or peel off in little flat-clear peices?
posted
Why clear over the lettering? Lettering with a catalyst is hard and tough and well bonded and resists scratches and fade. It is far more difficult to remove at a later date than the same paint without the hardener, but the doors can be reclaimed, whereas they can't following a clear coat.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If you use hardner in your 1Shot....when it starts to get thick and 'draggy'....qickly clean your brush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Othwise that nice brush is now a chisel!
Si at Frank's
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Thanks for all the tips so far. I'm taking every one into consideration. As far as getting "this" job, who knows, once he sees my price! I've often wondered though about the clearcoat process on vehicles and you guys have answered it well - not a consensus by any means, but it is well covered. Frank, I've heard of a well chiseled brush but I'm sure that's not what they were talking about. Rick, He is going to clearcoat his entire truck, it's a "show truck", somehow I don't think this one will pan out, you know that "feeling".
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Sheila they differ because automotive clears dont bond by either/or chemical or physical reasons,they bond thru both...an automotive/automotive grade clear is designed to become part of the basecoat its sprayed over so that what you have in the end is one single layer thats pretty structurally tough,uv resistant etc with minimal mil thickness of the material....more mils is a recipe for problems.......to simplify what happens just remember that the auto clear is going to bite into the base and make an attempt to chemically crosslink with the basecoat to make that one unit.....if there's 1shot there its going to attempt to do it to the 1shot...which is something designed with it primary use being a topcoat and not be topcoated,its only lately that people seem to believe that they can cover it with clear,hide a few 'oooopses',lock everything down and have a panacea cure for everything...even 100% cured it doesn't particularly chemically bond itself to a vehicle surface and you dont usually have any physical adhesion helping that out...when was the last time you sanded an area you lettered first? Probably really **** off the customer if you did. Alot of people think the catalyst makes it bite into the surface but it doesn't improve adhesion,it just makes it cure properly and fully so you cant scrape it off easily....its not really designed to have something that aggressive try to bite into it for that long a period of time while several mils of material lay on top,and when that starts its really got no defense against whats happening to it and thats where your wrinkling and everything else bad happens. You can cheat around that process with the mist coats sometimes because you can put down enough "dry" spray on top to where the clear,when it starts to kick and 'bite',grabs onto itself and not the one shot,although if they start piling the clear on too heavy even in that case thinking they're gonna make it look "wet" they can easily still wrinkle everything up including the base. The 1shot clear would be a better choice because obviously its designed to work with the 1shot and chemically the properties etc are going to be different to some degree no matter how small and for a reason...trust me there is no automotive manufactuere that takes into consideration in any way spraying over oil based alkyd enamel whether its catalyzed or not...if they arent going to warranty it neither should you...doing it for yourself would be one thing,turning this part of it over to someone else when you dont know the end result is iffy at best
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Gene; this is Frank, not Si, as earlier. I shipped his arse off home, he just left.
In all these answers, there is some truth,but using catalyst is not the answer. As Rick alluded to, why? One-shot doesn't need it. If this is going to be buried under clear, why use one-shot? A good urethane striping enamel would be choice of mine to do job that is going to be cleared. You did finally say it's a show truck. right? I'd use urethane striping enamel, brand is your choice, I won't list brands here, as I don't use one of them and to bad rap them here is non-produtive.
If you must use one-shot, I'd suggest finding out from customer what brand clear he's planning to use, then, add catalyst from that brand. hair of the dog type of thinkn'. I'd never use one-shot catalyst to be cleared over by another product, they aren't compatible for the most part. The safest way to eliminate any problems is to add catalyst from clear he's going to go over the top of it with. I understand need to clear, but I'd suggest talking him into urethane instead of one-shot, for one reason, one-shot will come on thicker than urethane, making for more work and more clear to cover it.
Do as you will, these are from years of messing with these paints. Another one that gets alot of talk is to clear work as soon as possible, a wet on wet type thinkn'. I've had better luck with that technique than any other. If not possible, make sure you catalize your urethane, use cat from co. that makes color.
OK, that's all, back to moving.....
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I've cleared over a lot of One Shot with urethanes in the past. The key is in the application of the clear. Like Gavin siad, if they go laying it on heavy IT WILL LIFT hardner or no hardner in the One Shot. The application of the clear is the key even if you are using a urethane to letter with. Go too heavy there with the clear and it will sag like crazy.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I have to give it to Gavin, he sounds like he knows his stuff.I come from a family of auto painters but I never got into the chemistry much.One thing I do remember my gramps harpin on over and over again was prep."YOU GOT TO MAKE SURE ITS PROPERLY SANDED AND CLEEEEAN" he'd say.I like havin fun so I didn't get into complete paintjobs just lettering stripes and graphics. Gene , I usually take a stock vehicle and wet sand the areas I'll be workin on with 800# or 1000# grit.From what I've heard one shot wont go anywhere once you've done this,but I don't take chances. I always add the one shot hardener to airbrush, outline, and stripe the thing.Most of my clients usually do their own clearing(BODY SHOPS)When its left to me I get a painter in the family to shoot it but I always help, ask, watch, and learn.I want to do it all eventually.The directions on the can do say 10% by volume, but like I said not much into chem so I do the Gavin taboo of eyeballing a few drops, more if its reduced for airbrush work .Like Sheila I use Nason to reduce.One day for dry time.Gramps also harped about using the best materials so PPG URETHANES to clear with THEY make a knockoff named OMNI which is also pretty good.
posted
After reading all the responses here I'm gonna say something else,...use ureathanes if they are gonna clear coat it,....I didn't say it in the first place because you said "(I am NOT buying another brand of paint for this customer, it WILL be 1-Shot)". Why take the risk to your own reputation and the end result for your customer? What good purpopse will it serve? In the end the client always pays for the materials one way or another,...why give them a chance to blame their stupidity on you?
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just can't help it. I have to restate with more confidence, that if the One-shot is cured, and you "dust" the catylized eurathane on in 2 or 3 thinner coats and then a final even coat, you should have no problem.
~It may Take a month for the Oneshot to cure! So? The Oneshot's not gonna fade in a month. Have 'em bring it back.
You can really tell when you start to sand the lettering/art if it's cured. Because if it acts "gummy in ANY spot and you put the clear on it at any thickness, it's gonna wrinkle.
I also wanna reiterate what a little PR will do for ya when you wanna get somethin' baked at a body shop. . . .which reminds me to ax ya, why do you think body shops bake to rush a cure?
A: So they can sand and clear. Then bake again so they can get paid
And also, just so you know that I am accomplished at the art of nagging, I like to sand between clears. As Gavin mentioned, here again you can get into uncertain results meaning you can wrinkle the clear itself if stuff ain't been mixed perfectly.
I'm lucky on my paticular job, he's gettin' ready to have a door repaired so we'll get the body shop to bake the whole van as well. Then I can just lay on one even coat of clear and let it go....mabey I'll send Ju'day or someone a pic to post for me.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Timi, I'm doing it in One-Shot because, for this customer especially, I don't think it will need a clear-coat anyway. Everyone else, It seems like Urethane is the way to go, and remember, I am not the one spraying the clear, the customer is. But... if I brush on a 1-Shot clear over the image only, will that give me a decent finish or would I need to mask and spray it? I am quite proficient with a spray gun, I worked for an electric sign shop spraying faces for 2 years and then some, but I have NO experience spraying vehicles. It always seems like a foreign subject to me.
This brings up a question though. Someone (Sheila?) mentioned sanding between coats. If there is shading and/or airbrush work on the vehicle, how would you suggest sanding that - does it get sanded? Even a light sanding would expose prior layers of paint.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Hey Shelia, I will be happy to post a picture for you. I'll even give you lessons on how to post a picture. Take pictures and get a CD of the pictures too. Then you can email it ot me or I'll call you and tell you how to post a picture. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've been going through the posts and do a ton of this kind of work everyday. What I have read so far is pretty much truthful and from these individuals because they have been there and done that. That is always the big question, wether to clear or not. If you are going to clear, the surface needs to be sanded first, if not you will be sanding on your artwork and you don't want or need that. Also, if it is going to be cleared especially by the customer I would not use 1shot, unless they are knowledgeable with type paint(not too many people are). I have done many graphics and murals jobs with 1shot only and not cleared it, they still look great after many years.
This design was just 1shot....
This one cleared using HOK paints....
These two don't look much different but use totally different processes.
To be safe and it was me with the customer clearing it I would not use 1shot. Experiance wins over here. BTW House of Kolor striping paints still need to dusted on the first coat of clear too.
My two cents. Feel free to call and talk further if necessary.
Hetz
[ September 27, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Jim & Chris hetzler ]
-------------------- Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com www.jchetzstudio.com
"We are the one that makes you look good!" Posts: 137 | From: Muscatine,Iowa,USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
OK, here's an out. Mask off the panel to be lettered from the rest of the Vehicle. Abrade with 800 grit WetorDry completely. Lay out and paint your complete sign with the One Shot if you must. Let dry 24 hours, tack completely and spray 2 coats of PPG DC 3000 /3070, spraying the first coat just like you want the last to look. Your Re-Coat Window at 75 degrees should be about 10-15 minutes and then let dry for about 2 hours, abrade again with 800 and send it to the paint shop! for the Complete Clear Job!
Make sure you completely mask the vehicle before spraying ANY Urethane Enamel. It doesn't remove easily! Wear complete PPE!
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