posted
I go to a bankrupty auction of a large Pager manufacturer that has its own advertising department. I bid on and get two fairly new P4 computers complete. They come with the operating system discs,license sticker on side of each computer, and all the software, books, disks, etc. On the hard drive are literally hundreds of paid for type 1 and true type fonts from many different fouundries. Now do I erase all the software, delete all the fonts, and just keep the operating system? Do I keep everything as is? This is not a rhetorical(SP)question. They sit on my work table as I speak.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
My humble opinion....THEY paid for the fonts...YOU bought the computers from THEM with all the stuff loaded on. So I figure YOU paid for the fonts too!
Keep everything!
Edited to say that there is still only one party that will be using the purchased fonts, only now it is YOU and not THEM!!!!
[ September 16, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
On most software and fonts license's it usually stated that the purchaser (original) has the license and probably does not allow 3rd party or sub-licensed unless an authorized transfer is made.
[ September 16, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I guess it all depends on how big the gray area is of your black and white.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Got this from Adobe's site which is pretty much like the rest....the gray area starts at "You may..."...which requires a little work to completely ease a delicate conscience....
4.4 No Transfer. YOU MAY NOT RENT, LEASE, SELL, SUBLICENSE, ASSIGN OR TRANSFER YOUR RIGHTS IN THE SOFTWARE, OR AUTHORIZE ANY PORTION OF THE SOFTWARE TO BE COPIED ONTO ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL OR LEGAL ENTITY'S COMPUTER EXCEPT AS MAY BE PERMITTED HEREIN. You may, however, transfer all your rights to use the Software to another individual or legal entity provided that: (a) you also transfer (i) this agreement, (ii) the serial number(s), the Software and all other software or hardware bundled, packaged or pre-installed with the Software, including all copies, upgrades, updates and prior versions, and (iii) all copies of font software converted into other formats to such individual or entity; (b) you retain no upgrades, updates or copies, including backups and copies stored on a computer; and (c) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this agreement and any other terms and conditions under which you purchased a valid license to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may not transfer education, pre-release, or not for resale copies of the Software. Prior to a transfer Adobe may require that you and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users of the Software. Allow 4-6 weeks to transfer. Please visit http://www.adobe.com/support/main.html or contact Adobe's Customer Support Department for more information.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Did the fonts come on discs, & are those among the discs you mention?
The software is on the discs you mention?
I don't know what you got, but take Adobe software for example... having the disc doesn't make you the licensed owner. The original registered owner can still pay the reduced price for an upgrade & get another disc (& of course he may have all that software (& fonts) loaded on another computer from those discs he gave you. Adobe does allow a transfer of ownership & it requires a signature from the previous owner transfering registration to you so you can continue to upgrade your new second-hand software at the reduced rate.
posted
If it's like most auctions, you bought it where is, as is, and in it's entirety. I purchased a pay type locker unit at an auction for use as a tool cabinet. There were no keys to the lockers, therefore they were sold with all contents, which were assumed to be nothing. When I drilled out the locks I found $98.00 in quarters in the coin shute. I had given $20 for the unit. The locker was mine, along with the quarters because I purchased it legally, "as is, where is."
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
The original license holder no longer exists. Maybe that means the license dies with them, anyone think of that yet?
Seems to me if you have the computer the software was originally installed and licensed on, you would assume the license. Obviously there's no copies of that software with the same serial number anywhere else but on that one machine, unless an employee of that company swiped a copy but you have no control or knowledge of that.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
William, I'm a real stickler for copyright and licenses. In my opinion (for what that's worth), Ricks "Adobe Policy" says it all. They have transfered the rights to you, since you bought the computer. Whether it was $8 or $800 it's legally yours. I say use it and enjoy it.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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I think that since they own the copyright and intellectual property...the answer is no, you do not own them or have the right to use them....UNLESS....you and the original purchaser follow the steps that Adobe requires to do it....
The question you are really asking is:
Who is responsible, the seller or you? You may not be responsible but, anytime it is used it will be an unauthorized use of thier intellectual property.
[ September 16, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Your bought the computer, hard drives included (a mistake in my opinion, not yours but theirs), and it has software on the drives. Fine to this point. Any reasonable person would think that, ethically, you bought the computer, drive and all the included code on those drives and can use it how you see fit.
From your description I believe a lawyer for Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft and/or any number of font foundries would think otherwise.
If you really want to keep using the software, fonts, images etc. then follow the money back to the source and ask for the documentation, if it can be found. Past that you could ask the software license holders (Adobe, etc.) about ownership in this situation.
Personally I would never sell a computer with the hard drives included. Too many people can find/use all kinds of information from supposedly wiped drives. Really want that drive clean so no one can pull your financial information off of it sometime in the future? Pull the drive out of the computer, pull out your trusty cordless drill an put a dozen holes in it. Alternately, you can break out your BFH and whack it a few dozen times.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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[QUOTEPrior to a transfer Adobe may require that you and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users of the Software.] [/QUOTE]
Again, the key word is "MAY". Rick, I reread the policy and I think the main concern is that the original owner DOES NOT retain any copy on his computer and that he is not COPYING this program but IS transfering it. If all original disks exist, and were transfered with the computer and the program, and you are in posession of all, you have abided by Adobe's requirements except for the "MAY" part. I believe that's in there so they heve the OPTION to request the documentation if they suspect you of piracy. If you are abiding by A,B and C, then you are in compliance. That's MY interpretation of their rules without trying to stretch them. They were VERY concise in adding the MAY into this policy. Use it.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gene, if you think any vague wording in legalese creates opportunities for the consumer instead of limitations... well, I would have to wonder what country you're from
If the word "may" answers this question at all... it is where they say you "may not" do anything... except we MAY permit somethings.
Like dave said, I too also have went through their transfer of ownership policies. You can think what you want, but if you ever want to upgrade, you WILL need a sign off from the previous owner.
posted
You MAY...provided that you A, B, and C. And then they add the "may require that you confirm in writing" thingy. Okay, before an upgrade they MAY request the info... but as far as owning the license to USE the program legally... satisfy A,B and C. Again, that's my read.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
And you MAY continue to use the software, and the BSA MAY not show up on your doorstep, and you MAY not have a court order against you ordering you to pay Adobe and others the full license fee plus penalties.
Maybe and Maybe not, the choice is for each to make on his or her own.
posted
I wonder if that ADOBE legal statement is applicable to FONTS. It's looks like it is for software. Fonts are not software. They are (I believe.) intellectual property like artwork. Subject to more normal but no less complicated copyright laws.
quote:Pull the drive out of the computer, pull out your trusty cordless drill an put a dozen holes in it. Alternately, you can break out your BFH and whack it a few dozen times.
That's silly. None but the most advanced computer user can pull old information off of a drive once it's been properly cleaned out or wiped. Even then only with special proprietary software and tools.
A quick Google search for disk erasing software will give you plenty of results and options for getting rid of anything on a HDD before you sell it.
That even is overkill. If you simply run FDISK, and format the drive no one is going to be retrieving information from the drive...or no one is going to waste time trying unless you are some kind of CIA operative or the like.
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
If you want the right answer then NO. The office that sold the hardware were irresponsilbe in not deleting the fonts, and that does not give you the free access to the rights. If I bought a car with your wallet in it I bet that You would not want me to use the cards inside.
posted
Having some publishing contract experience, my take on William's situation would be this.
The transaction that has transpired, is not much different than say, I purchase a font collection, and without making a copy for myself, or otherwise duplicating or infringing on the rights of that font collection's manufacturer, I give it to someone else, or even sell it to them for an amount equal to, or less than what I paid for it, because I have decided I'm just not going to use it.
When, in a publishing contract (and that is essentially what a software license is), when they specify that the purchaser can not "sell", that is in reference to repackaging and redistributing. It's much like, when you buy clip art...you can sell an image as an integral part of a design or job, but you can not make a copy and sell it.
The fonts that William posseses right now, were more than likely obtained legally (i.e., purchased), and are therefore fair game, both from a legal, and ethical standpoint.
It's about the same thing as anyone buying a used VHS copy of Planet of The Apes, or a used "Frampton Comes Alive" LP at a garage sale...whoever purchased it originally, paid the toll.
posted
A ittle note of clarification here. This was a Sheriff's siezure and sale of a bankrupt company. Almost all ligitimate liquidation auctioneers will see to it that the hard drives are wiped with the exception of the OS if discs and license sticker are present. The sheriff in this case just "siezed and sold" "as is where is". Auctioneers only job was to "call" the items. First time I have ever bought a puter with anything on it, let alone with all the documentation and manuals/books. Over eighty computers sold at this auction. Each from their individual office cubes. Each cube had the books, disks, and manuals appropriate to the computer it housed. I imagine that many of the fonts were purchased over the net.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Clip-art can be either rights protected or royalty free. Really read the terms of most clip-art makers, many have clauses, like not for use in signage, logos or over a certain amount of imprints.
Fonts are protected, and thier intellectual property, it was never the auctioneers or sherriffs unless they lrecieved a tranfer of rights, use the fonts and it is unauthorized usage...
So if I, per say but DVD's, CD's or tapes at this auction, does thet make me the legal owner of the rights to do as I wish..I can show them in public, make copies, whatever, because the original owner accepted the terms but I am free and clear as a third party purchaser?
I hope I don't quadruple post this time....
[ September 17, 2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Steve, The trademark is for the NAME of fonts. That's why we have Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, etc. The font software is only covered in the WAY it interprets the curves and lines that represent a font e.g., where the nodes are that represent curves and what determines the spacing between the letters; that code is patented as software.
As far as the "MAY" argument goes, the lawyers didn't make a mistake. Law is all about semantics and vocabulary. MAY allows Adobe to take certain actions or to NOT take certain actions if they desire. It leaves them open to allow your transfer because: You bought it at auction and have all of the discs (proof of ownership without having to prove prior ownership), or you father died and left the computer loaded, with discs, and you are ready to upgrade. A,B, & C, again, give you outright permission to use the software as the new owner with documentation. You have satisfied their conditions for transfer as they state them. You have no way of proving that the original owner doesn't have a copy of the files on another computer, but since YOU own the discs now, you retain the rights inherent in ownership. YOU NOW HAVE THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM in its entirety.
We deal with semantics daily in producing proper signage, such as: All passengers MAY be searched for illegal substances. All passengers WILL be searched for illegal substances.
Rick, As far as the DVD,CD copying goes - you are allowed to do with those discs, the SAME things the original owner was allowed to do with them as the new owner of an original version. No more, no less.
Doug, Yes, you probably have to satisfy Adobe or any other software provider before they will allow you to upgrade, but that in no way precludes whether you MAY use the program you currently own.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Is it ethical for the computer people to lay all these new outrageous ownership legalisms on us? Seems to me there's more creativeness in their legal departments than on their workscreens.
Ya always get what ya pay for, no more, no less. You got a good deal on the compters, but here comes the dillema, as now you have to figure out this damned license ownwership crap.
I say feel free to use the software as it was on the computers when you purchased them, and you did get the original discs, manuals (and hopefully any serial or CD key #s), and you do have a bill of sale (and hey, is not the bill of sale in effect the previous licensees 'signature of transference'?). And is not possession 9/10's of the law?
So if you decide to not go through the manufacturers resale/license transference protocols, does that in itself make you a criminal? It seems to me if the manufacturers have any beef, it should be with the previous owners whose business practices allowed the ownership issues to get out of their control (shhh, Billy Gates might read this and get the idea of getting your p/l statement and bank acct info before he sells you the Windows version!).
However, I wouldn't load this software on another computer, nor expect to be able to upgrade it until you do iron out this license ownership crap. I just don't see using the software on these computers to violate any ethical boundaries.
Concerning the fonts now, I would contact the font houses and see what they think about your owning their fonts in this situation (I say keep those font folks fat, can never be enough fonts in the world, ya know?).
(Billy, if your reading this and do adopt my idea, then you'll owe me 10% royalties)
I hope my analogy wasn't misconstrued. I didn't want to imply that if someone buys a secondhand video or album, that they are exempted from the same responsabilities as the original buyer; just that they don't need to send the record company any money, or even notice...and that the artist isn't entitled to another royalty on that resale.
I'm guessing that William wasn't asking if he could do whatever he wanted with those fonts (i.e, reproduce and distribute freely), I think his was inquiring as to whether he would be violating any licenses or laws in using them himself, which he would not be.
Let's say he KNEW the fonts were on the hard drive. He could have been bidding on the fonts at the auction, and the computers would have been nothing more than the vehicle o nwhich they were transported.
posted
Are you guys kidding me??? Why on earth would he delete something he bought and paid for? When/if you sell your signshops, are you not planning on ever selling the programs, etc along with all your equipment?? That is ridiculous!
Enjoy em William...you bought them!!
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Shop length dongles... I will admit that the mental image did pop into my mind. LOL!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
If it were me, I wouldn't worry about using them. Part of the "lot" you bought at auction included original disks, manuals, etc. of the software. Common sense tells me you bought the software from someone who no longer needs it, much like buying a used car. Do you have to ask Ford's permission before buying a used truck from your neighbor?
I suspect Adobe has the "may" wording to give them a defense to people using pirated versions. If you decide to upgrade, call and explain that you bought the software (ORIGINAL disks, etc) from a now defunct business. ASK if you can upgrade it.
If the disks were copies or the software was only on the hard drive, no disks that would be a different story. In that case, I'd delete it.
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but this is what my ethics say.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
If my 15 yr old son wants to buy a car & the previous owner left his license & registration in it... is my son licensed & registered because he got a signed receipt? I'd worry a lot less about using pirated software then driving without a license, but the analogy of buying car is not that close IMO. I've driven without insurance & I've even driven without a drivers license, but I was not in denial about it being illegal. We don't own software, only a strict license to use it.
Right now, like many of us, I have over $10,000 of software licensed to me... that I actually spent over $8,000.00 on, (plus I got a few good deals for license transfers like Illustrator & Casmate)but I'll admit that I used copied versions of most of that software for a short time before I bought it.
I would agree to "not worry" if you want to use software on a second hand computer... I just think some of the excuses of why folks think it's not a violation of the end user licensing agreement are pretty unconvincing to me.
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