posted
Hi, Last week I tried to get an actual bum who paints signs a few times a year here to get a business lic. The county and city did'nt bother having him get one. He's a sloppy lowballer. So, I'm putting an ad in the Advertiser that says:
posted
Don't wanna appear as a Smartass, but coming from an old Painter that quit when I had to compete with low balling vinyl cutters on every corner, I have to say;
"What goes around, comes around!"
There is no such thing as a Quality Vinyl Sign . . .
posted
This may be a but off the original subject, but, I beg to differ with you John. Go to some of the websites of Letterheads who do vinyl or both. There is quality! For example, check ot Bob Rochon's pages
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
It's not just the guys that will do a simple banner for cheap.....I just bid on some welcome signs for our city. The other shop in my little town which has been in business since 1957 priced a 6' x 8', 2" thick sandblasted wood, three colors, installed using 6"x6" posts for $3000. My bid using routed signfoam was considerably higher. If I'm going to go broke I'll do it sitting on my couch drinking a cold one, not doing big jobs for nothing
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
John, mabey you could say there's no such thing as a quality "economy-grade vinyl" sign, LOL
I have a good many hi-end, quality signs out there, for example: hand-painted pictorials on automotive finishes and premium grade vinyl copy that still look good bro., even after 7 years. I know that qualifies as quality.
To reduce glare on your comment, consider editing or ammending . . . :x
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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There is no such thing as a Quality Vinyl Sign . . .
I'd be more worried about appearing as a dumbass with a comment like that around here, but since you used to paint... well where is that groveling "we're not worthy" graemlin when ya need it
This just in... Low-balling idiot with vinyl cutter spotted in the vicinity of Niagara Falls Blvd and Military Rd... Considered dangerous...
Last seen driving white 1977 Plymouth Volare wagon, Florida plates ICU-812...
Stay tuned for further developments...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6466 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
John..With all the complaints that we hear in recent times about the quality of lettering enamels..I definitely find your comment about vinyl signs to be kinda ill-researched.
I have many many vinyl jobs out there that are 10 years old and still look fine. And guess what??? Some of the layouts are pretty good too!
Maybe not as pretty as your faded paint layouts but still pretty good.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Actually John, the more I think about it the more offended I am becoming. I have been in business since 1982, and have used vinyl as well as paint.
Maybe the vinyl guys in your area are inferior, but I am here to tell you that design is the first priority. i have seen many many poorly designed PAINTED signs, and some awesome vinyl work. Perhaps you should rethink your opinion and edit your reply.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think Johns entitled to his opinion. Just like the low-balling idiot, it has nothing to do with me.
I think if I had the chance to work or design handpainted signs only I would, and I think most if not all of us would, if we could make a living at it.
My personal opinion is a vinyl sign can be just as attractive as most well crafted painted signs...I prefer a nicely crafted handpainted sign.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Gotta weigh in - this is just too good. I can't keep a strong opinion bottled up inside me... John, I am in complete agreement with Rick and others, on the subject of paint vs. vinyl, and here's why: In much the same way that the success of a business can't be attributed to only locale or the nature of the business itself, but rather to the individual(s) that operate it and what they do to make it successful - a sign's quality doesn't hang entirely on the choice of materials used. How many other factors go into your definition of "Quality"? Layout/design? Color Combinations? Lettering style? Readability? Negative/Positive Space? Proper amount of copy? Effectiveness? Overall appeal? If the definition of quality is so narrow, then think about the painted signs on rural roads that say, "Eggs 4 Sale" or "Fresh Produce". We've all seen them. They used paint, didn't they? Yeah, seems like it was black paint on that piece of scrap plywood from the barn. 'Nuff said. Sorry to reduce it to the ridiculous, but your comment was a bit offensive.
Moving on to another topic in this thread...
Perhaps equally offensive to some, is the fact that our shop owns a lot of technology, no enamels or brushes, only been in business since 2002, and I have the nerve to call myself a signmaker. Who cares that we are in what many consider an "economically depressed area"? Who cares about the cheap cutters on every corner? If it gets too bad here, maybe I'll pack up and move to a bigger market like, say, Pensacola and do the same thing we did here. Create Demand. Diversify. Do good work. Shake every last hand in town. Hand out of all the business cards you have, then have more made and move on to the next town. Hire good help. Ignore the negative. Ignore limits, break barriers and believe in yourself. Practice 'Coopetition', not competition. Outwit, Outplay, and Outlast. You aren't limited by the economy, the business you're in, or anybody with $5,000 to spend, with the idea they'll make a killing doing signs. Limits are self-imposed.
Off my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent.
-------------------- John Stagner Action Graphics Salem, MO agraphics02@earthlink.net Posts: 98 | From: Salem, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2003
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-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
comon down..johnny....you gona makea big mark in this town.....hahahahahahahaha oh just a side note, ive been in this business most of my life and full time since 86, i paint, am an artist, and seem to have a good business sence, or i wouldnt have been at it this long.i also was an outside salesman for NAPA jobber stores from maine to fl, also ive had all the sales picth/course/motivational retoric. so your 2 yrs of experiance is powerful mojo...when you heard this same stuff in 20 yrs from the other "business minds" and see there places come and go..and iam still here.....then ill listen to you........again i didnt want to hear about chest beating ego...i was just puttin this up there....to show where the IDIOTS are takin the sales.....you did read dat didnt you.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Johnny just offered some great advice. Granted, he dosn't have "all your experience" but, he does have common sence.....Not too common today. No doubt he carried his prior experience from another career to form his well worded opinoin that he graciously shared with his peers.
And yes Joe, we get the point, there are vinyl hacks out there. You need to pick your battles and just do jobs you can turn a profit from. Everybody can function at a different profit level. If the hacks can do it for less, maybe their overhead is lower than yours, or maybe their wife is a school teacher, and they don't really need an income. Maybe they are working for cash and not reporting to the IRS? Well then, they can work for less.......ON TO THE NEXT CLIENT!
As Bob Rochon stated, don't be too stubborn to see places where you can improve. "If you always do what you did, you will always be what you were"
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
For anyone who has it in their minds that you can't do a good sign in vinyl, I suggest you look up Universal Signworks or Art Attack Signs in NH. Take one look at some of the outstanding design work these shops do in vinyl and I guarantee you will be sorry you ever uttered the thought. For years, they have set the standard for quality work around my way.
OP, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but there are people "doing what you do"....
Making signs, same as me.
Whether they use vinyl, paint, gold, airbrushes or any other materials isn't the issue.
I've had it up to my eyballs with the "I live in a depressed market" mentality. I live in the middle of East Nowhere, but have decided that it's no longer an excuse that holds water. I truly believe that when you can produce better quality work and build the reputation for it, the customers will seek you out, regardless of where you are. It's not all about "location, location, location". It's about setting up a professional job for EVERY customer, wherever you are, and building a solid reputation for quality and design.
Drift away from that basic mindset....well....you only get as good as you give.
Hope Ivan didn't hurt ya bad. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
again....you want to stay on me..fine....iam the one who dont know nothing......you wont just stay on the point....iwasnt posten bout me....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Heck, I just try to create nice stuff priced to afford me a comfortable living (complete with with vacation time and a savings account!) and don't concern myself too much with what other people are doing.
My aim is to cultivate good, long standing relationships with customers who can grasp the concept of value with regards to my skills and services. In this, I feel respect begets respect.
Part of my job description is to educate and strive to earn their confidence ... with words, examples, portfolio ... and patience. I take this part of my job as seriously, as the design and execution of their work. Sure it takes time, but proves well invested for the long term.
Quality? .... hmmmm. Paint, vinyl, wood, hdu, plastic, paper, ink .... whatever WORKS for the job. Folks can create masterpieces with car parts for pete's sakes. The job of a good design in our biz is to catch attention, convey a message, function, be in tune with it's environment, hold up well, ... oh yeah, and look good doing it! "Quality" ultimately stems from decisions made and skills applied with all these factors in mind.`
That's just how I've been seeing it. Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Joe, glad to see you are still on line. How did you fair?
I consider myself an Old School Sign Painter, BUT, I started using vinyl with a 4B in the 80s.
Vinyl has been around since before I started in the business in '62, although it didn't jump up there until the vinyl cutting machines hit the market. I was applying vinyl on tractor trailers back then. Most of it at that time was either diecut or screen printed. I used it mostly when you had a lot of mandatory small lettering on a sign, or for DOT numbers on trucks.
Back then, when there wasn't much layout capability with the cutters, you didn't see anyone but professional sign people using it.
Only when the computer programs that allowed easier layout and design came about, and they got a lot cheaper, did you see the people with talent they got out of their wallet come on the scene. Most of the cheaper vinyl plotter companies started spouting the line, "Complete Sign Systems, no skill required, all instructions included".
If you were around back then, you probably felt as most real sign painters did about the signs flooding the market with obvious lack of design skill and material that held up for a month before the edges curled.
The Sign painters I knew then were concerned about the bad image they gave the Professionals who were around at the time.
As you all know, a lot of customers haven't a clue about the difference between a quality sign and one that has a gazillion colors and really looks flashy.
There are still a lot of no skill people out there pumping out signs, but many now have realized the need for design, and are turning out some really great stuff.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
After reading over the first part of my previous reply above, I'm thinking it may sound kinda preachy. But I don't want the point I was trying to make be missed.
OP, I know it's frustrating, but don't fret the ignorance of the other guys out there. Focus rather on building stable relationships with clients that you, in essence, "train" towards thinking in terms of value. Take the time to truly earn a customer's confidence. They will network and build you more of the same kind of clientele.
I'm finding, especially more in this past year than ever, that patience with customers is high on the list for skills to succeed in this business.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
i just want to say i appreciate all the advice, but you all got to understand iam 59,been doin this full time since 86, worked at signs since i was in my teens. ive seen, heard, done, exactly what you seem to have just discovered recently. i think thats what i been tryin to say to all who want to give me proper direction. and the last couple day i have not been me...scared, afraid and tired....the psychological imprint of this hurricane will forever be ingraved in my mind. i grew up in a bar, my mother was italian, card shark, pool hustler, and all around money gruber. her favorite saying when i was growing up was in italian, translated it said "trust was a good man but he died." this was her way. she would take money from people, con people do to work for her for a couple beers, and never feel a twinge that she was usin people. so i know how to seperate people from their money better then most...if i choose to. i also worked outside sales for NAPA and they have meeting on sales practices....motvation, and product knowledge...so iam good to go there...i can sell ice boxes to eskimos....hahahahaha. any of ya who have met me, iam far from shy...and i do get along well with customers. i went thru the APPOLLO LIGHTING SALES seminars,AMWAY CRAP,HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLe phase, EST, IAM OK YOUR OK,CARLTON SHEETS, more psycobable then most shrinks know. so iam far from inept in dealin with people, but again i apoligize for some of my outbursts...its been a ruff couple day....just relaxin to nite.
[ September 17, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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You are hilarious Joe!
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