posted
Kinda lengthy post and I'm not looking to get slammed but I'd like to see if I can find some insight from the diverse group here. Just got my butt reamed by a local sign guy, complete with swearing and absolutely no reasoning with him about my use of a healthy amount of local plywood. Couple of calls close together out of the blue with fixated enthusiasm. He's old school, excellent with layout & a brush. I've had nothing to say to him or anyone else but good things and recommendations. I'm new school and in business to make a profit. Did I miss a law written somewhere that as a screen printer first, then sign shop, my business model and needs cannot change? I got the impression that I was told to go back to my press and stay away from signs and especially if it meant doing that many of them. 10-15 4'x8's a month in either digital or vinyl is not uncommon for us. This happened to have been a good month and almost doubled that. I got the distinct impression that if I didn't hand render each one of them with an old world touch & paint, that I was breaking some sort of taboo. I don't want to start a vinyl/digital jockey versus brush artist argument. I have nothing but respect for the successful brush artist, creative vinyl shop, and even the franchisee sign shops. But is the distance between artist & businessman that far apart to cause that much anger? Or should I just blow this incident off as too much lead exposure?
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Craftsman sign people and Screenprinters have a totally different mentality...both should be appreciated.
Without seeing your work I can't respond, but you saying plywood already spells "hack" to me. You can't compare an experience sign person with a newbie or self taught-semi-newbie. I don't know how much experience you have, so I can't answer that.
I like hand rendered and painted signs myself, but am occasionally impressed with a vinyl or digital layout. Maybe he is responding to bad layout and cheap materials. You would not be the first person to do it, but it makes it harder for an experiences sign guy with a quality product to compete if you are in a small town. Keep using plywood, cheap vinyl and charging 1/2 the normal price, in a while you'll be out of business, or change through experience, or be super hack discount signguy...and hopefully you can all get along if he can send the cheap stuff to you, and you can send the craft stuff to him.
As far as his anger, sounds to me like he has the problem, Sign artist can make a lot of money and give guys like you no thought at all. I personally would not see you as my competition...but thats me. Maybe when there is a sign you can't handle, send it his way....it may lead to a decent business relationship....and likewise you may still be able to do his screen work.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Excellent viewpoint Rick. That was the kind of insight I was looking for. Just to clarify what we do. We do not solicit local business long term signage needs. We know the limits on our abilities and the small amount we do comes as a result of repeat referrals and is not our primary business. When I say plywood & these quantities, it is all project based and is not related to the local signage market in any other way. We do routinely refer the quality work to him and many others in the area. We do larger quantity signage to compliment our screen printing products for temporary projects, (months to 1 year). The quantites involved are also not something a local one or two man operation would like to handle, (4-15 pcs, with short (very short) lead times). As an extension of our printing and providing a service to our customer. I have also found our pricing, (for what we provide and the quantities involved) to be very much within the local market price range. But I would hope he would not want to compare high quality signage against promotional signage programs in either a quality or cost argument. As we were in differing markets entirely. I've been trying to put this in perspective on how we may be affecting the local market. I'm in business but I'd like to be a good partner locally. I'm afraid he has developed an impression that we are a large corporation. When in reality we are just a few people with the same bills as everyone else.
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Almost forgot. Been in the business for 20 years and pulling a squeegee in my teens before that (on MDO too:), but my skills need work every day to keep up. If I hope to make anything like what I see on here daily.
[ September 05, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Unless I misunderstood, you been pulling a squeegie for 20 years, and only been doing signs for a while, and he was one of your clients? If you have a screenprinters mentality toward signage, this sign painter has nothing to worry about. He should just adjust a little but I see on;y small similarities. Promotional signage (well all signage) is cut throat here in California. Screen printers can bang out a few hundred and collect thier money. I wouldn't want to touch that, it's not fun.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thank Monty, Your right, first time it's happened and it rubbed me the wrong way. I don't believe I'm leaving anything on the table but a bunch of unfinished job tickets that make money, so I'm blowing it off and getting back to work! Thanks for the head clearing all.
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Invite him to lunch. Be his friend. Give him a chance to appologise. He probably feels really crappy about blowing you off because of something else that set him off first.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Maybe the sign guy got po'd because you used all the local supplies of plywood and there was none left over for him...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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On the nail head I think Bruce. You can sure bet I'm now looking over my shoulder at 7-11 when I grab the last gallon of milk! (Rick, I give that a go after things cool down a bit, tks)
[ September 05, 2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Um...how does plywood = hack? My dad ran one of the best sign shops in a three city area. His most usual substrate was MDO plywood ~ good both sides, primed, edges sealed, and coated with a high-quality enamel. Those were some of the most durable signs ever, and they looked terrific.
What is your most usual substrate, Rick?
[ September 05, 2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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William, right there plywood or MDO? Yes, it's technically MDO plywood, but I can't remember hearing 1 signmaker referring to it as plywood, it's always MDO. "plywood" generally implies the junk ya get at the lumber yard.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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That's sure a crummy way of presenting that he'd like to learn screenprinting! and, maybe he was needing the plywood for boarding up windows and you took it all! and you know if he was extremely satisfied in life, he wouldn't have anything negative to say about you; He could have gone about it a better way, right? Maybe you can get lunch on him! I just live and learn, sometimes letting them all think they're right. And they're not all right.
[ September 06, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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What Kissy said.... lower grade plywood can not be termed MDO....it would be a bad substrate for most sign applications...unless it's up a week to maybe a month. There are sign companies that pass that off plywood as MDO, or even believe it is the same. If you have been in the business any length of time you usually <---added) call it MDO.
[ September 06, 2004, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ron did refer to MDO on his third post. after Rick mentioned the "hack" equasion, but before Chris raised the queston of weather or not the plywood in question was MDO or not.
Although I agree that most sign professionals call it MDO, even if Ron enlightens us to the facts of that plywood, & even if it was NOT MDO, as it seems it wasn't, I still don't think that equates to a hack job.
I can seee why Rick would say that & I don't disagree that the term often does spell "hack"... but in the context of Ron's stated role as a screenprinter that doesn't solicit sign work but accepts the short term stuff that comes his way... I think some jobs aren't worth a sheet of MDO, but can be crafted with a good layout & priced economically while also profitably.
Screen printing may not be as ancient an art as hand lettering... but it sure goes pretty far back before computers & is one of the traditional crafts we "keepers of the craft" need to respect.
I was enroute to an architectural career & stumbled into architectural signage, later branching into more diverse signage. Most architects would not be particularily impressed with an awesome sign that we would drool over, but awesome signs have there place just as awesome buildings do... and simple afordable buildings or signs are equally in demand if not more... which of course illustrates Ricks point anyway... Ron is not really "competition" to the local old-school letterhead anyway.
posted
Yeah, without all the information I threw out "hack" as a term for lowballing, poor material, bad layout hacks, and the usual reaction to most sign guys is a little less than welcoming. I did not mean that personally to Ron. Promotional signage and low end signage is not "hack" worthy, but needed products, and who here has to do their share of it, but it is in a different realm or expertise than craft signage or architectural...I didn't say better, just different. I also have a screen set-up, but to say I'm a screen printer in the realm of Ron's experience would be wrong. And when I have the occasional promotional signage job that needs to be done, I don't call a craft sign company. I'm sure the sign painter that yelled at Ron has other problems then Ron's signwork. As far as raising the bar, well Ron's in the best place, since there are plenty of accomplished artists and designers willing to give tips and pointers, especially at a meet, I'm sure if we see him around more often, we can learn from him. Some of what I see lately on other boards are questions based on which cheap plotter to get and what clip-art, they show horrible layouts and get applauded for it...we should be free to speak freely but respectfully, my "hack" comment is just my reaction to the really bad stuff I have been seeing on other boards lately, and not necessarily on sign boards either.
Anyways, that signpainter can't be that good, he's not here and Ron's been here since 1999 <-----this was a little attempt at humour
[ September 06, 2004, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Plywood = Temporary, Silk Screen = Not so temporary.
I have done quite a bit of silk screen work over the years.....mostly hand cut. This is an art in itself, using a knife and squeegee instead of a brush. I not only cut screens for myself, but cut them for four other Sign Shops in the area.
I have even done 5' X 15' screened on aluminum for application to trucks. Have also screened Fleet Logos and Graphics on Commercial vehicles before computer cut vinyl. Have also painted on vinyl back then for application on vehicles when they couldn't have their vehicle out of service for enough time to hand letter it.
I think silk screen printing still has its little nook in the sign business.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Maybe this guy needs a little education on getting along with others in the advertising business. It wasn't a plywood issue, as it was so much that he didn't feel respected about his craft. You were just in the firing lane.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:I'm in business but I'd like to be a good partner locally.
I think that pretty much sums up your integrity. Otherwise if you were a jerk, like the other guy is implying that you are, you would never have said that.
My father was a wizard with a brush but he did plenty of silk screening over his 40+ year career.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Thank you all for the kind replies. I respect all the crafts people in our industry and hope respect, reason and profitability can all coexist. I due lurk often and believe me I'm taking all your successes and experiences to mind and applying them daily in my little corner. I couldn't live long enough to get the experience I'm getting here!
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:"I due lurk often and believe me I'm taking all your successes and experiences to mind and applying them daily in my little corner. I couldn't live long enough to get the experience I'm getting here!"
Ron, that's why I've become a resident! I couldn't afford to buy or spend the years to get the information passed on here! I just hope that when I get to the level of most of the people here, Letterville will still be here!
-------------------- Scott Daniels That Sign Shop Rockton, IL 815.624.7271 Posts: 19 | From: Rockton, IL | Registered: Dec 2002
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However, I am just a know-it-all and lurk around and get into trouble... Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
But, still, money well spent.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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and Ron's been here since 1999 <-----this was a little attempt at humour
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