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anybody here get thier a$$ reamed for being too expensive, i got it today, from a woman that owns a small used motorcycle shop!! she claims she can get my work done for $400 cheaper from another painter in the area!! i wanted to ask why ya callin me then, but kept my mouth shut. i dont know what the situation is, because before she ripped into me over the phone, she complimented me on how good and pleased she was with the work, but then it came. "YOU JUST LOST ANY MORE BUSINESS FROM ME CAUSE YOU'RE TOO EXPENSIVE, AND YOU SHOULD REMEMBER THE AREA IM IN." hmmmmm do i really need her business, not really if the work is that good right? oh, yeah i think she called me cause her other guy holds on to the parts for awhile before they get em back, and she needed them for a show this weekend!! who wants to paint for nothing id look at those parts for awhile too if i was only getting paid $300.00 to overlap flames, pinstripe and do a first set of clear!! MY QUESTION: am i doing something wrong?
-------------------- Brian Antonik@adelphia.net Posts: 11 | From: Nanticoke, Pa. | Registered: Feb 2004
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You get what you pay for. I would've asked her why she was wasting my time if the other shop was so much cheaper, obviously they know what their work is worth. I've told numerous people "if your only concern is price, not quality, you've called the wrong place"
Where is Nanticoke?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Apparantly, some other painter gave her the usual after quote. "I woulda done that for BLAH BLAH.. cheaper".
It happens but when she goes to him again she will find a higher price. Or, he will screw up the next job somehow. They always do.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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"After quote". I like that. Gonna have to add that to my vocabulary.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Grow thicker skin. Never let a total stranger or and asssshole dick tate your self worth....Its a game that will always be played as long as there is money to part with.
I'm fortunate to have a reputation of being expensive. Keeps all the whiners away and I like that.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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As the saying goes “Long time listener, first time caller” I have been an avid reader of the BB and this is my first post. So greetings from New Zealand.
On a slightly different tangent we have a sure fire way for our customers to get a fantastic discount, we just get them to mention our name when they are at one of our competitors and the price is usually about half of what we would charge.
It can be disheartening when a customer feels that you are charging too much, as mentioned above being thick-skinned is also the answer for me.
-------------------- Johnny Taylor All About Signs Ltd New Zealand www.allaboutsigns.co.nz Posts: 13 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2004
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i know what youre saying joey, the funny thing i was trying to make the price look good to this lady because, it could lead to more work from her being she owns a used motorcycle shop!! the other thing i thought, was since she's in the bike business she wouldve known its expensive, and this price for this work looked like a deal!! haha, what ya gonna do, ya know, cant please everyone!
-------------------- Brian Antonik@adelphia.net Posts: 11 | From: Nanticoke, Pa. | Registered: Feb 2004
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You could try this...depends on the type of person she is...Turn it around on her. When she mentions it again, just say, "Well that is what I heard about YOUR shop. Your prices are WAY too expensive!" Do it with a smile on your face and then wink. (This works better when you're face to face ) Then explain to her, I have to make a living too and I am charging for my time, expertise and my RELIABILITY (which she has complained about from your competitor). Try to make her see you just want to make her look good and improve what she is able to offer to her customers, but not at your own personal expense. Might start a dialog where she sees that you are both in this to make money and you can work towards that goal as partners and not butting heads and accusing each other.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I find persons saying that either their town or their shop or this shop or something always calls for a lower price for whatever reason. This is not what bike painting and pinstriping business evolved to. Prices are high, how high you ask, whatever the market will bare. Your work should speak for itself and nothing but your last job will be your calling card. There are many real talented persons in Pennsylvania getting big dollars, even persons coming in from another state recieving big dollars to do your type of work, I know I was there doing it when I lived in NY.
Persons who get your work and complain about prices are the same as those who do not advertise your work and only advertise theirs
BTW, your logo should go on all your work
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I've had people during social functions, etc. that I was at say "Oh you're that sign lady! I was gonna call you, but I heard that your prices are too high" When I ask who told them that, they usually pause for just a heartbeat and then reply "I can't remember" Cheap people suck. Good work speaks for itself. When that lady comes crawling back to you, quote her even higher. If she balks, say "Well, you said I was too expensive". Don't let your customers set your prices. I always add in the AF when needed. (A$$hole Factor) It's always an additional $100. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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First, she's not buying something off the shelf. She's asking for custom art.
Second, no two atrist will deliver the same finished product.
I remember once as an apprentice asking a local journeyman how much he'd charge for doing a boat I just finished. His response was something like "I don't know, I'm not bidding that job." I thought this was a smartass lazy reply at the moment, but as time went on I saw more and more wisdom in that comment. After the fact prices are not in the same league.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If she's the only one that's whining about your prices (after the fact no less - LOL) forget about it!
Everyone has a different perception of what value is, and no matter what the cost there *will* be someone willing to pay it.
I hear the "in this town" line all the time. Well, it's true that the residents may or may not have what it takes, but there are a lot of people willing to travel here from a nearby area specifically for a service, and they're the ones to cater to.
Many of the "big shops" in the custom industry are located in rural areas. It's cheaper to run a business in an area like that and it cuts down on the number of people snooping around.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I got it from a guy who had me pinstripe his new Dakota pickup. "$60!! I never would have agreed to that terrible price!! I'm gonna tell everybody I know how high your prices are, and call the Better Business Bureau" All this he said AFTER he paid me and left the shop.
Here's my take on it: Chances are, his friends already know how big of a jerk he is, and probably won't listen to his rantings anyways.
In talking to others on the BB, $60 is very fair for what I did. I can stay home and starve. I'll be darned if I'm gonna work and starve.
It's hard not to be bothered by these people. But, after a while, you learn to appreciate the good ones, and avoid the losers.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rick, $60 to me is 1 double line panel repaired to pre-accident condition at a bodyshop. I would rather stab myself in the chest with a pair of sizzors then open my kit for a regualar customer for less then $150 for whatever amount of work they want. Last Monday I did a double line repair on a hood with a design for a bodyshop at $155. Design took an hour from a photo they gave me.
How can one charge a customer less money then they would a dealership or any account that gives you more work on a daily basis? This is how poor business practices work there way into the pinstriping world and prices come down. The object is to make money, not friends..
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Turn it around on them, by asking them questions you know they will answer only in a certain way. i.e.
The time frame we agreed to, did I/we live up to your expectation?
The work I performed, that we both agreed to that I would do for you, did it/we live up to your expectation?
The work you perform in your motorcycle repair shop, do you meet your customers expectations?
Do you meet your customers time frame requirements?
Do you expect to be fairly compensated for your work?
Are you in business to make a profit?
Me too.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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Brian I have had experience with Motorcycle shops in the past, The last 7 years i was a sales rep for a large wholesale distributor, that sold to motorcycle shops and also all the dealers, I covered the east coast of North Carolina and the southeast of Virginia. They want things as cheap as they can get it. when you left their shop I know she called other sign shops and said, This guy can do the job for x amount what can you do. than she Would call another and play all three of you guys. I quit that job in started my own business, Promotional products,and Sign shop. Got tired of giving stuff away and doing favors for my customers , Just to be sold out to another supplier because they may be 5 cents cheaper on a tire. I didn't need it and you don't need it. The advice today is to let her go and don't look back. I had the same thing happen to me, I wanted this persons business because they did buy alot. I lowered my price to get the business, #1 The price was never cheap enough even though I was just making pennys on the dollar. I was to busy with her stuff and I had to turn down other jobs that would have a better profit margin. Rest assure if someone offers a cheaper price she will drop you asap. let her go and don't look back. Their is a Value to what you do. And they need to know that. I finally got smart and let someone else have the headache not me. If she calls me today I am to busy,
Ray Life is to short for some things
-------------------- Ray Williams Key Advertising /Signs by Ray 301 Elberon Court Chesapeake Va. keyadvertising1@cox.net Posts: 26 | From: Chesapeake Va. | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Similar to Mark's... "You don't have to be ashamed if you can't afford us." Not as nice, but definately gets the "big spender's" wallet out!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Phone rings. "Are you the sign shop on Main Street in Butler?" Me: NO "Do you have their phone number?" Me: NO, there is no sign shop on Main Street in Butler. Why do you need them? "I need Golf Outing signs" Me: I do Golf Outing signs all the time. "Well how much do you charge then?" Me: $22.50 on 18x24 Coroplast with a step stake, no logo. "That's too expensive!" Me: Sometimes I charge $25! "I'll call around and get back to you" Me: The next time you call, it will be $27.50. CLICK
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I think Jill is right on! These bozos that take up our time and then come crawlin back to us saying they'll take it, we should add $5/sign or a decent amount and if they whine just say "Hey I donated X amount of my time when I explained what the process was before and now you're asking about them again - time is money and either put the $ down or hit the road, I've got paying customers work to do!"
Sorry about the rant but we've all been there and I feel like ranting (LOL)...
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
Would'nt panic about the repeat business. Spent first four years of my career some twenty years ago, signwriting for a local truck body builder. Did an average of 3 bodies a week at lousy rates for long hours. He was never happy and a slow payer as well. Took me years to tell him where to shove his work ( had to wait till account was fully cleared). Best days work I ever did. Don't even speak to him whenever we meet on the street. no one should have to put up with ignorance
-------------------- Kevin Gaffney Artistik Signs Kinnegad County Westmeath Ireland 044-75187 kevingaffney@eircom.net Posts: 628 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2003
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It's classic. I know I've said it before but... we're ARTISTS. It's not considered a real profession. We are seldom appreciated until we're dead. THEN our work is worth something! We'll have the last laugh... wait a minute, we'll be dead!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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thanks for everyones input, i know i dont reply, or post alot but ive been reading this message board for awhile and i love it, sometimes i just gotta tell someone that can relate to this type of problem in the custom paint business!! we'll see what happens in the near future here with this bike and woman's attitude, i'll be showing some samples of art this sunday at a bike run in my area, and the motorcycle shop also will be there showing thier bikes!! im curious to see how much they are asking for this bike, and how much they will adding to their final cost for a custom paint job. i'll let ya know sunday eveing what went down!!
-------------------- Brian Antonik@adelphia.net Posts: 11 | From: Nanticoke, Pa. | Registered: Feb 2004
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don`t worry if your too expensive brian,i lost a big job because my price was too low, the customer tought that i want to sold her **** because the price was very lower than the other,but it`s just i don`t have try to f**k her, na na na na na life it`s life
posted
LOL, Hey Brian, you ain't doin' nothin' wrong . . . that was just that woman's crude way of tryin' to haggle the price with you.
Sometimes I like to aggrevate these people by sayin' . . .(very politely & business like). . .
"Hmmm . . really? Well, I was just gettin' ready to go WAY UP on this price and you were the last person who was gonna get it at that deal. I'm glad for you tho' that you CAN get it cheaper somewhere else because I can go ahead and work towards gettin' a better class of customers."
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My dad owned a sign business for 20 years. (He didn't do pinstriping). After several years of working for LESS than minimum wage he decided..."I'm gonna make money or do something else." Later on he was able to make this appropriate observation: "You don't lose money on work you don't do."
However, ALWAYS treat the customer with a professional attitude (unless they get physically violent). My dad rarely smartmouthed a customer over price. He'd probably encourage them to take advantage of the great deal (knowing that they'd probably be back--but if not, oh well).
I guess Letterheads NEVER shop around for the best deal. Letterheads ALWAYS go to the HIGHEST-PRICED supplier, etc. I wouldn't make fun of the customer--they may be ignorant of what it takes to produce quality work, but we don't know everything about every kind of business we deal with either.
Ever cuss out a cashier at a fast food restaurant? I work at a fast food restaurant--you probably have no idea what we have to deal with as employees there. We have NO control over the types of products, the method of food preparation, the procedures (that some guy in a office invents), how many people decide to come through drive thru at a certain time, etc. But we get cussed at frequently. And people call the 1-800 number to complain about US (not about the system).
Also, you don't know what personal events a customer may be dealing with. When I was a clerk at a department store a customer yelled at me for asking WHY she was returning the item (it was a gift for grandson that DIED).
If you're prices are FAIR, stick by them. Helping her understand what goes into your work might be a good idea if you can do so professionally. Professionalism is ALWAYS a good idea. You expect it from EVERYONE that YOU deal with. What if WalMart starting charging extra to customers that have cussed out a cashier or complained about a product or a price? (And I'm not saying that YOU were unprofessional, its just that many posts seemed to encourage smartmouthing the customer.) I frankly disagree. Stick by FAIR prices, but be courteous in the process.
Thats my two cents.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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a FAIR price. Now that's a tough question. It had better be FAIR (profitable) for you. No, I PROBABLY wouldn't try to match the other guy's price just to win this one customer over. But that would depend on countless variables.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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Second, Pay no attention to her, because as soon as the Low Ball Specialist goes broke, then she'll be back! Add 25% to your old prices, plus a 10% Agravation Fee on any "Rush" work and gon about your business.
Here where I live, a transient Texican came to town, took all my "Dealer" pinstriping. Stuff I was getting $175 per car for he charged $25. Well he's gone, "couldn't make any money", but now the dealers are whining 'cause I charge too much . . I say pay or go find the Texican!
posted
Mr Bill Bass - I hope you are OK - but you ARE in Pensacola, so I trust not too much will reach you.
I like what you say, and agree in general. As a matter of fact, I plan to print out the saying:"You don't lose money on work you don't do" as soon as I'm done with this not, and I will hang it up in a prominent place with other true admonitions for healthy living.
I confess I could not quite stay ladylike yesterday when a woman I did not recognize pulled a sign out of her trunk which I instantly remembered. Yardsign, d/f, black and white on baked enamel yellow. In a frame, in great shape still after many years.
"Can you change this phone number for me?" She asked unceremoniously. "Sure" "Are you going to charge me?"
For reasons I can only guess at (hard week, Friday afternoon, haven't felt all that great) I started laughing uncontrollably.
She looked at me funny, and I then told her that she had given me a great idea to try to go to places where I once bought something and see if I can get more stuff for free.
We settled things. I quoted. She agreed and then, I swear, she asked me: "How much would it be to change the background to pink."
This time I laughed til I cried. Bless us and save us, I don't make this stuff up.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Okay. Well, maybe the sign business isn't 'zactly like WAL-MART!
(Pensacola is actually having very nice weather--just a little wet here)
Helping a customer understand (in a fairly nice way) that they wouldn't dare expect anyone else to do work for free is a good thing--and requires great communication skill. I think you did well. I'm sure it took some restraint on your part, which you understandably lost on the second question. hee hee.
But if you could hear my sister's stories (she's a customer service agent at Wal-Mart), it might not be as different as you imagine--customers are just ignorant of what goes into something. We tend to make fun of them but forget that we are ignorant customers, too.
But I will admit, people have the strangest tendency to think sign work is no big deal. If it's no big deal, why don't they make their own? (But I wouldn't dare ask them that)
Yes. I love my dad's saying--"You don't lose money on work you don't do."
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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in reply to william's response, i assure you all that i was professional in the matter at hand, i didnt even argue with her on the phone, i just said thats fine, and i let her know that the price was less than standard rate, i assumed she knew what she was looking at price wise being she is a used motorcycle shop distributor. i know i shouldnt assume anything anymore!! believe me, its ok if this shop does not send me anymore work, im trying to weed out the people who want everything for nothing, its kinda shocking how people think and view things anymore. ( they have it, its worth a million bucks, on the other hand, they want it, it isn't worth sh*t)
-------------------- Brian Antonik@adelphia.net Posts: 11 | From: Nanticoke, Pa. | Registered: Feb 2004
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I always get frowned upon for my statements but William, You work at Hardees, your sister at Wal-Mart and its been many years since you worked in a sign shop. Not all sign shops do motorcycle or custom painting, if they did they wouldn't be doing signs as their main ticket. An excellent custom paint job on a motorcycle sells upwards of $3000. This can take less then a week and the profit margin is huge if you're good enough. I hear persons speak of sign shops as if the plotter and sign program is going to revolutionize their way of selecting colors, designs and backgrounds, well it won't and therefore this is why one shop gets business and another shop doesn't. Not all customers shop prices and just like someone who weeds out letters, that same person can weed out persons who price shop. You get what you pay for. and no everyone knows custom stuff.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
i know i should be getting more for my work, but this area of pa. is a bit slow on reality, ya know cause im not a feature painter on the discovery channel, how good can my work be right? at least thats what people think around here, unless my work would pour them a beer they are gonna complain about the price. like i said before im in the process of picking up a couple steady clients, and weeding out the people that want the work for nothing. after sunday, i should have a pic or two of this bike, hopefully, unless the shop wont let me around thier stand at the bike run, i dont think it will be a problem.
-------------------- Brian Antonik@adelphia.net Posts: 11 | From: Nanticoke, Pa. | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Brian I have a sign in my shop that works great.
PRICES Subject to change according to customer's attitude.
It does work. I had someone come into my shop for a price on a 4x8 sign so I gave her a price. She called back the next day to tell me she could get it for a better price someplace else.
Well a week later she come back in the shop and tell me she wants me to do the sign for her so I told her the new price, she said thats more than what you told me a week ago. I said yes it is would you please read the sign next to me.
She did get the sign and more work later.
-------------------- John TheTagMan on chat Thomas Signs & Custom Graphics Posts: 29 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2002
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John Thomas, I'm intrigued. Where are you in NC? And are you MOVING to Canada? Or expanding ...? ---------------------------------- My son had a sign in his shop that said in effect: Deposits 50%, Jobs $100 or less have to be paid in advance He worked in the basement of his home, as I do. He said it worked like a charm for him to just point to the sign, shrug, and say: Here are the rules. He swears to this day that people did not connect the dots to realize they were HIS rules.
Duh.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't think any of your comments sparked my Wal-Mart speech. Actually, I thought your comment to Rick Beiseigel:
quote:I would rather stab myself in the chest with a pair of scissors than open my kit for a regular customer for less then $150
was hilarious .
My dad told me tonight about one of his strategies, which you might appreciate. If the customer complained about price, my dad would say something like:
quote:Oh. Well, if a cheap price is what you're looking for, you need to go talk to [insert name of the cheapest sign painter in town]. He has really cheap prices.
He said the customer would usually come back later only too glad to pay whatever dad charged. However, dad didn't charge him an "aggravation fee."
By the way, Brian, I never said that YOU had treated the lady rudely, and I apologize if you thought I did.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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