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A client sent me a bitmap of his logo which I have to cut in 1/4" acrylic. As I was preparing the vector file for cutting I noticed some pretty raggedy details in this font. I thought this was the stock Garamond.ttf that came with CorelDRAW. I can't believe after using this font for so many years I wouldn't have noticed this before so I suspected the font was either damaged or maybe some junk version I had acquired along the line. To my surprise, upon closer inspection of the bitmap image, the exact same irrugularities seem to be present in his logo. Can this be right? Is yours like this? Should I cut it as is or clean it up?
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Garamond is an old typeface; I think it dates from the 16th century or so. Unlike more modern faces, it was originally hand-drawn, with all the quirks and inconsistencies, and in some versions (and their are dozens of variations) these were either digitized as is, or the digitizing itself was a bit sloppy. I would think there's nothing wrong with cleaning things up if it bothers you.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In general, I have found that Type 1 fonts have cleaner lines than True Type. I tried the word "GARAMOND" in both T1 and TTF. My Type 1 version is vastly superior.
For years now, I have used almost exclusively Type 1 fonts because of the higher quality.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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LOL Booner . . .the client is going to be stunned to even discover the word "serif" exists, much less irregularities within them
Anyway, I never noticed this before Joe! Now you're makin' me wanna go magnify all kind's of typestyles!! I know I personally have been disturbed by Caxton and Goudy bolds.
You might be a Letterhead if you are deeply offended by irregularities within the smallest details of some computer-generated typestyles.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Nobody's perfect. Gerber was established for quite some time before I mentioned to them that their "flag" was backwards on their upper case "U" in the Dynamo font (not that anyone uses it, obviously). Even the mighty Gerber!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Pretty much every major foundry has at least one version of Garamond. Most of them digitized their versions with the thought of being "faithful" to the original drawings they worked from.
Other foundries, notably Adobe, like to "regularize" their fonts and will have cleaner looking versions.
So if you're looking at irregulatities it's most likely intentional. If you're looking at more nodes in the TTF version vs. the Type 1, then that's inherent in the standard for defining curves set down by Apple when they created the TrueType standard. The font should still produce the same result in print or in cut as the Type 1.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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Do you mean the sqared-off effect? If you don't then there isnt ANY problem. If you do, it really seems like no big deal (but you're a sign guy because these things are a big deal to you).
How big are the letters going to be? From what distance will these letters be viewed? How much are you getting for the job?
If the letters are small or will be viewed from some distance (do a scaled printout to get an idea), then this is probably not worth a second thought.
If the letters will be viewed rather closely or are really big...well...maybe clean them up, but the customer has never noticed it before and probably wouldn't now. So I'm still in the don't-clean-them-up camp.
It's his logo...if he's a letterhead, he WILL notice and get ticked off. He wanted wierd serifs and you messed them up. heh..heh
If you have Type1...look at it and see. Seems like my Garamond (on a previous computer) had oddly shaped serifs, but I don't remember the squared-off thing. Seemed rounded, as I recall. On that computer I had mostly Type1 (back then they were vastly superior to TT (produced fewer nodes and stayed faithful to original shape...never knew what a TT font would do when converted to curves...but TTs are okay now).
Don't know if I would buy Type1 for this one sign (unless its fairly reasonable--like $5...maybe $15 if youre making good money on this or think you'll use Garamond a lot) and, unless its fairly easy to clean up, probably wouldn't bother with that, either.
Sheila's reply was hilarious and very appropriate. I REALLY doubt the customer knows or cares. Probably wouldn't know what you were talkin' about if you showed him the same thing you showed us...took me awhile to see your problem (the squared-off thing, right?). They just want their sign.
You have to magnify it for us to notice, but in real life...the letters will likely appear fairly small when being read...much like your unmagnified version. Besides...the overall word usually prevents these little abberations from being noticed.
Have you ever hand-lettered anything? Sign painters know it doesn't have to be so perfect. TIn handpainted signs, the variation from letter to letter can be rather tremendous...but the WORD produces an overall effect that prevents such variation from ever being noticed.
The computers have made us too nit-pickin'. IMHO.
Good luck, either way.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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Well...it may seem silly to some... but.. About the time you figger yer customer has the brain capacity of a mushroom.. yer gonna git bit.. Its HIS logo...he deserves the attention he is PAYIN ya for it and..yes...this is experience speakin...
posted
gotta go with Boone on this one, or like William said "It's his logo...if he's a letterhead, he WILL notice and get ticked off He wanted wierd serifs and you messed them up. heh..heh"
...but IMO it's a lot more then a "squared off thing"... total asymmetry in a very unintentional looking way.
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I'd say it really depends on what it'll look like when viewed from the distance it will be viewed from. As Si says, "it's a sign, ya read it, ya don't smell it." If it's gonna be a billboard, read from the highway at 65 mph, a slight imperfection that you have to put your nose against the sign to see, isn't gonna matter.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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If I'm not mistaken, Corel has both True Type and Type 1 versions of each font. If you prefer the Type 1 look, load those. For me, I prefer the clean Type 1 look. If my customer is up close smelling the sign or is just nearsighted like Mr. Magoo, I don't have to worry either way.
Keep in mind that until Corel released their last service pack for versions 11 and 12, it had a bug that did not display Type 1 fonts properly if the identical True Type font was installed.
When I say "did not display properly", I'm quoting Corel's documentation for their service pack, written by their marketing department. The bug was absolutely maddening. Sometimes copy would disappear, sometimes it would be unable to be edited, cutting and pasting the copy would weird out, changes would not be saved, etc. It drove me nuts (a very short trip) until I accidently found out that uninstalling the identically named True Type fonts cleared it up. I discovered my work around while trying to reproduce the problems so I could send a bug report to Corel.
That problem was on Corel 9, 10, 11 & 12. I do not know if they have patched versions 9 and 10 on this issue.
Up through W98, Adobe Type Manager had to be loaded on your computer to use Type 1 fonts. From W2000 on, ATM was part of the OS.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Garamond has funny, asymetrical serifs. But I dont recall them being squared-off. I tried it in my Corel 12. Youre right...that IS terrible. I opened the Bitstream Navigator software that Corel 12 comes with...it does have type 1 fonts, but not for Garamond. Garamond does not have the TT or T1 beside it...it has "O". I don't know what "O" means...several fonts have that. So, at least in my Corel 12, it APPEARS not to have the Type1 Garamond.
It seems that the logo I used Garamond for (TEN years ago so I could be mistaken) had wonderfully mishapen serifs (which I happened to like) but did NOT have those ugly squared-off serif tips. I'm pretty certain it was Adobe's Type1 Garamond. That was one of my favorite fonts at the time.
I went to the Adobe web site. I didn't stay there long. Looks like you have to spend $30 to get ONE instance of Garamond (give r take 5$). Seems like theres ways of gettin' em cheaper than that but I dont know they are. I got my Adobe fonts on a special deal for buying Adobe Photoshop 4.0. Maybe someone knows where you can get it cheaper.
Cleaning them up MIGHT not take too long if youre good at node editing. Try a few serifs (on a copy), see what kind of results you get and what kind of time you make.
If its going to be viewed from a fairly good distance (if it would appear to be about the size of your illustration, for example) the serifs just kinda blend away. But if its going to be viewed from a fairly close distance...tough call.
Let us know what you decide to do.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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Wow, this got more replies than I expected. Thanks. So I'm not crazy and there's nothing wrong with my font. Wild that I never noticed those lumps and irregularities. There's actually more than I illustrated, That whole font has a very hand-made look to it. I'd have to say I kind of like it. It just surprised me is all. So subtle it looks like a mistake.
These will be 7" letters cut in 1/4" acrylic and seen from as close as 6 feet at right about eye level (a fascia sign over the bay window of a sunken brownstone-type building downtown Boston). My dilhema is if I cut it 'right', as provided, the property management company (my client) may think I did a poor cutting job, and if I 'fix' it the client may object. I've got to go out of town for a couple days anyway, I'll sleep on it and figure something out by Monday.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes--due to the size of the letters and the closeness with which they may be viewed, I would seriously consider talking with your company contact about this. This was Michael Boone's advice, I believe. I would show a corrected letter and an uncorrected letter side by side on a print out to point out the differences (a well-designed attachment to an e-mail might do the trick, also, but make as clear as possible the difference between a corrected and uncorrected letter--I would magnify the serifs a bit more I think, but I liked the insets that you used in your original post).
I always hated talking to clients about stuff like this because I was always unsure how much they cared. Their eyes usually glaze over when approached with this sort of info, but at such a viewing distance, the company will probably be glad you brought this to their attention. They probably never noticed the ugly serifs before (by the way, Adobe's Garamond is beautiful) because its so small on a business card. They probably wouldn't notice in this case, but just in case they would...
Really, clean-up shouldn't be too hard.
Good luck.
[ September 03, 2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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It won't bother them until it's brought to their attention somehow, YOU might as well be the one to do that before the job is done.
Shoot... You never noticed it before. I've never noticed it before. Many others here have never noticed it until now. Statistically, the customer would never stand a chance at noticing it under normal print sizes. When ya blow it up you notice it and your customer just might too.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I cleaned up an "M" based on what my Adobe Garamond looked like and e-mailed it to you. I hope you got it with no problems.
This corel font is awful. I wouldn't dare produce 7" letters using this font without first cleaning them up. The "M" had more problems than squared-off tips. It had some curved areas that were made of several short straight lines...it had jaggies along what should be smooth strokes...flat or angled areas that should be rounded.
I wouldn't bother talking to the customer about this. I would just clean it up (or, if you can, get a friend with Type1 Garamond to e-mail you a curves file of the text). I seriously doubt the customer is a letterhead (I was joking about that). They arent going to care about these details (unless you dont clean them up). The fonts problems just arent noticeable at 12 or even 48 POINTS but at 7 INCHES all these problems will be noticeable.
This isnt a case of a font maker being true to some old-fashioned style, this is sloppy digitization. Its ugly...very ugly. I recant my earlier joking, light-heartedness in the matter. Sorry.
Good luck.
[ September 03, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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well seeing as Monte has looked at his gerber fonts I will have to say mine might be a true gerber font then. Mine has a few inrregularities in it as well. Not quite as bad as your Joe but it's not consistant like other fonts.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Garamond has inconsistencies. Its like Times Roman with a touch of casualness. There are swells in the strokes. The serifs have rounded tips and may be asymmetrical. However, the Corel font is just badly digitized. Its fine for printing--I wouldn't use it for sign production.
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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