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Howdy All, I have been painting one-shot fades onto Gerber cast vinyl for about a year now with no problems until yesterday. The paint is peeling off the vinyl with the application tape and it looks really bad. This is a pretty big job in a high traffic area. I want it to look great.
The only difference that I can think of is that I have moved into a new shop without a controlled environment (no A/C yet). I read in the tech. section of the letterhead.com and it says to use krylon with Frogjuice.
My process: 1. Cut text in Gerber High Perform. Red 2. Cleaned area with 99.% Alcohol 3. Mixed One-Shot yellow with about 25% mineral spirits and airbrushed fade. 4. Waited until tacky to spray with frogjuice and let sit overnight to dry. 5. Taped next morning with R-Tape Control high tack. 6. Graphics sat in shop for about 1 week rolled up.
Any help - suggestions? Thanks Dennis
-------------------- Dennis Baughman Midtown Signs LLC 3840 Warwick Blvd. Kansas City, MO 64111 dennis@midtownsigns.com Posts: 14 | From: Kansas City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yup, just like George says. Buy the GV series Nazdar inks and forget all the problems. Goes on great, actually looks likes it becomes part of the vinyl and dries to a high gloss to match the vinyl. Best way to go!
The only problem is you have to buy it in quarts. A quart of this ink will last me 100 years!! Hahahaa.....well, maybe not quite that long,
-------------------- R.T.Thomas,AirDesigns/Sign And Airbrush Studio rtart1@earthlink.net
Hattiesburg,MS 39401 Shop 601-584-1000 Cell 601-310-5901 Proud supporter of LETTERVILLE!
"Ahhhhhh.......Juicy Fruit." Posts: 547 | From: Hattiesburg,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've used the Krylon/clear method for several years and have been fairly successful. I've never bothered cleaning w/ alcohol (not saying it's a good or bad idea). However, I do NOT use hi-tack transfer for ANY reason (low or medium paper type exclusively, assorted brands). Soak tape before removal with H2O. I also dust (not too heavy/wet) with a few coats of Krylon clear, it will blush otherwise. I've even used lesser expensive spray bomb clears (for racecar stuff) with excellent success. Just about the only recurring failure has been with a particular shade of Krylon light purple (lavendar). It refused to stick in the "heavy" spray areas on various vinyls for some reason, so I simply quit using it.
Just my $.02. Good luck.
-------------------- Pete Sharkins MotoArts Decals and Signs New Kensington, PA motoarts@yahoo.com * All vinyl, all the time * Posts: 138 | From: New Kensington, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Hey Dennis, I've always cut the vinyl then mist a double coat of frog juice then airbrush 1-shot. No top coat of clear. Let it dry 2 hours or overnight and install. The frog juice bonds to the vinyl and the 1-shot bonds to the frog juice. John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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What John said. Furthermore, some other posts have stated that One Shot clear has less solvent / more clear than Frog Juice. It takes a little longer to dry, but more protection.
Another method that has worked great for me is to FG or One Shot clear the vinyl before you cut it. You can brush it on with a foamie and get more protection. Then cut it, then airbrush. The clear won't weld the cut lines back together.
I've wanted to do the screen ink thing, but that stuff is expensive and like George says, sold in quarts only. Wish you could get it in 2 to 4 oz bottles.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I've used Krylon clear or One-shot UV clear with no problems. I try to let the vinyl sit as long as possible after painting & only tape it right before I'm going to apply it. Make sure you soak the app tape before removing it.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I can't help ya on the one shot issues, maybe the other responses here will work for ya on immediate jobs. If the job is sitting for a week with transfer tape on it, it's a pretty safe bet the frogjuice is bonding to the tape.
I use screenprinting inks now, after dinking around with krylon, createx, AutoAir, FrogJuice and everything else before and still never feeling confident the work was going to stand up.
Screenprinting ink removes all doubt, to put it simply. It's designed specifically for that material and what's even better, you don't have to do *ANY* prep on the vinyl before spraying it except wiping away fingerprints - no scuffing, no tie coats, no clearcoating afterwards.
I like Nazdar's GV series inks, although they smell absolutely horrible it's almost worth it not having to worry about any technical issues. You can buy them directly from Nazdar's website, any screenprinting supplier, even Dick Blick art supplies. You can also contact Nazdar for some sample material. They sent me a pint of white ink a few years ago, I use it a lot for highlights and such and I still have at least half the can left. The ink is pretty thick so by the time you thin it for spraying you get 3-4 times the volume.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Sounds to me like you need to hit the vinyl with a scotchbrite pad to give it some tooth before you wipe it down. I use oneshot, createx and krylon in my fades and I have found that wiping the vinyl down with cleaning grade lacquer thinner seems to soften and "open" the vinlf for paint. Rarely ever have any kind of lifting or failure.
I would start with a yellow vinyl instead and fade it with red paint. The red will cover more easily over the yellow and use less paint (build up).
I cut the yellow vinyl and before weeding it, dust it with the UV Clear aerosol BEFORE doing the fade. The clear acts as a "bridge" and makes a better surface to get One Shot paint to adhere to. A light coat dries pretty quickly. The red gets faded on with an airbrush and I leave it over night to dry. Weed and apply like normal.
I've also had good results with Krylon Fusion paints on larger jobs. Just cut, spray the fade, let dry, weed and tape.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Well, Here ya go Dennis, one more way to skin this cat.
Let me qualify by saying I have tried this method to death and failed many times.
First off, Ditch the frog juice!.....Every failure I have had has begun with the frog juice lifting first, now to qualify that! I started back at the source to remove all doubt.
I, like you, used to use any color 3M/Gerber vinyl for I was told it all was enamel receptive....NOT...they sell enamel receptive and it is clear, and yes it does work better.
2nd..I do the same a quick wipe with alcohol just to clean the vinyl from dust, oil, whatever, then I lightly scuff with a scotchpad, one more step I add now is Ti-cote from Chromatic.
Once the ti-cote is dry you have to put a piece of masking tape on it and pull up quickly to see if it has bonded as a test. If the tape does not pull up any ti-cote your good to go, spray away.
I also had skipped each step I mentioned and had paint lift AFTER clearing with frog juice, It was difficult to pin point until after I added each step in order that I just mentioned. Once I did each step religiously the only thing that would lift was the frog juice, the paint stayed just fine ( i am using one-shot by the way) so I figured why not use one-shot clear? I have used the speed dry UV clear in the past with great success but with the newer clears coming out from One- shot that might change a bit, but I DO know it works without any lifting. Also like kissy I only mask right before I apply.
You can go the route of screen inks it seems with less work I do not have the ventilation to spray such nasty stuff nor do I spray enough vinyl anymore to warrant stocking another product.
If you follow my steps you will have solid success, I still use enamel receptive clear and spray white as a base, but you can experiment with the other 3m vinyls, I believe the key is the prep and the ti-cote. Ti-cote dries clear so you could do like Ray said and use yellow first if so needed. No matter if I used a colored vinyl first I always mix up the second color to blend back into the fade to control the over spray anyway.
Have fun, I know it's frustrating, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt!
[ August 30, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I use HOK striping and lettering paint on hp cast vinyl with 100% success. Airbrushes great and hand letters great on vinyl for all kinds of neat effects.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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