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Need help. The Gettysburg Borrough (the "Burro" is more like it) requests sketches with photos of a building and sign superimposed onto it. Pain in the butt, but I can deal with that. Today they requested drawing of a free-standing sign (which I had already provided a sketch of) placed into a photo with the building. Since the only shot I had of the building was straight on, I had to go back and shoot the photo again, on an angle, allowing for the placement of the sign in perspective 72 feet from the building! I played in Photoshop for a couple of hours to produce this. Here are the dilemmas: 1) How do you justify asking for 50% deposit if you've already done all the necessary "normal" sketches for the customer and could basically begin his sign? It may be 6 weeks in some cases before the boro makes its decision (depending on the cycle of meetings). 2) How do you charge a customer for sketches of a sign that may never be produced if it's rejected by the boro? 3) How do you charge when the boro requests additional sketches? Many more questions, but I'll leave it at that for now.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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1) How do you justify asking for 50% deposit if you've already done all the necessary "normal" sketches for the customer and could basically begin his sign? It may be 6 weeks in some cases before the boro makes its decision (depending on the cycle of meetings).
Your answer is right there....."normal". Additional work is additional work, not defined as normal or out of the norm. Bill for it.
2) How do you charge a customer for sketches of a sign that may never be produced if it's rejected by the boro?
Charge a seperate design fee. You'll be paid whether you do the sign or not.
3) How do you charge when the boro requests additional sketches?
The same way yo do for any sketch.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gene, This will come in the way of experance. Maybe you eat this one, but next time you'll have to explain to your customer that the drawings are where the work starts, and a deposit is necessary. This is where you take you time and explain to your customer the long hard process of jumping through hoops. I always tell the customer that the drawings are the most inportant part of the job. Have fun John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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You'd think after 28 years in business... but, this whole approval thing is new for me. Whenever we had to request a permit in Baltimore, where I came from, it was a simple effort. It was objective, if it fit the parameters and criteria, then it was approved. Here it is subjective (and suspect, if you ask me). Add to that a double layer of bureaucracy, an Historic Architectural Review Board AND the Borough of Gettysburg. The HARB looks at everything first and makes recommendation to the Boro. During this particular month's cycle since the Boro met already, it will be about 5 weeks until an official decision is made. Drawings are actually due a full week before the HARB meeting. I feel this is way beyond the cost of doing business for my customers, and I feel like the bad guy for all the delays, even though the customer is fully aware. I guess that's why I'm reluctant to request the customary deposit for work involving the boro. I do charge for the "boro time" I do incur. The worst part of that is, $100+ boro fee (not including the actual permit fee) added to a $300 sign just ain't fair in my book.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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It may not be fair and it may be a pain in the butt, but is a sign shop supposed to eat these extra costs and burdens?
If the customers don't like it, they need to move somewhere they don't have a money-hungry Historical committee to contend with. Until then, plan for the extra costs, the extra goose chases, and pass the cost along to the customer.
Or, force the customer to do all this running around crap. Maybe once they have to do the legwork they won't mind paying extra to have someone else handle it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Your time is valuable. Our shop always charges the customer anywhere from $30.00 - $120.00 (prep time) to pull the permit plus permit fees. Not only do you need to provide a drawing but most of the time a detailed site plan which sometimes requires a trip to the site to check the set backs. In our contract with the customer we note that all permit fees are to be determined and billed on a seperate invoice. This way you won't come up short.
Sharon Halbert
-------------------- Sharon Halbert Argyle Signs Company, Inc. 19500 W. Davison Detroit, Michigan 48223 (313) 835-6630 Argylesigns@Yahoo.com Posts: 11 | From: 19500 W. Davison Detroit, Michigan | Registered: May 2004
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I don't recall ever getting a sign permit in 30 years of doing business. Lucky me I guess.
My way of thinking is to offer the job of getting the permit to the customer if they want to save some money. If they want you to do it I would definitely charge for the service... a set fee if you can accurately determine the time and effort, or a serparate hourly fee if there's lots of hoops to jump.
Time is money.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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The first thing you do is justify the deposit before you do any sketches. We ask for a design deposit before we start working for a customer. Customers understand you're not going to work for them for free. This deposit applies toward the purchase on the sign (whose cost include the design time incurred) but is non refundable. This means you are paid for the design whether they purchase the sign or not.
Once the design is complete, we provide a complete quotation with itemized cost that include a $150 fee to present to the Historic District Commission. We state clearly that we cannot guarantee design approval (no one can) and additional work would be at additional cost. Again, customers understand this and don't find it unreasonable.
We don't currently charge for the zoning and building permit applications, because they're pretty easy in our town. But I just pulled a permit in Cambridge, MA that easily took ten hours to complete, (and took 15 pages of drawings and forms, in triplicate) so we may start charging for other towns.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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I believe I can state with a fair amount of certainty that Florida has the most stringent permitting regs in the country. Many shops I've talked with here have a full time permitting person on staff because of the paperwork required. When I put together a quote, I double the estimated price of the permit (it varies if city or county, and from county to county) add engineering fees (plus 20%) if applicable, and add administrative fees based on what I know we are gonna need for that particular county. It's part of the job, charge for your time.
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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On one level you are right - it isn't fair to a business to have an extra coupla hundred bucks added to a $300 sign just so a bunch of nitwit official busybodies can justify their salaries. But YOU are not the source of these charges, and customers have to understand that the time spent on paperwork is a cost of doing business.
How about turning this into a pitch for upselling? Like: "You know, the approval process is just as time-consuming and expensive on a $300 sign as on a $3000 sign; if you are going to go to the trouble, you might as well get the kind of sign that will make it worth your while and really get some attention."
Under no circumstances do these for free. You didn't create the problem and you can't be held responsible for it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Some of the stuff I have done have taken more time in planning than to design it. Variences are the worst, and when some self proclaimed "sign guy" shows up against you at a hearing, or on coucilman doesn't like the project, it can get messy. Always charge for this, including hourly for standing in line at Engineering and Planning. There should be an estmated line item, but should be charged according to the time spent and material used.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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We have a Historical Review Board that meets once a month. Applications are a six page application and seven packets are required. Someone needs to be present at the meeting to answer questions and make the presentations.
Right at the beginning, I find a way to inform my customer of possible services we offer and the fees associated with them. We have a design fee. We can fill out the applications and coppies and turn it in and make the presentation for a set amount, and then we charge them for the sign and installation.
Many customers find the review board intimidating and gladly pay me to do that for them. If I can get several apps going every meeting, I can make more than a lawyer that night!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6736 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have a historical downtown group of nitwits I have to deal with now too. At first, I just sent my clients with all the info needed and let them fend for themselves. That resulted in catastrophe and ill will. With one, they were furious after they failed the first try and blamed it on me, which I countered with: would you have paid for my time to be there, answer:no. Now I just add the price into the total cost of the job and say its included, or occasionally I ask for a separate design/permit/review fee. After that we write up the sign order as usual.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'm beginning to see a pattern and I'm going to try to incorporate all of these ideas into a shop policy. As of now, it is 2 pages long and kind of intimidating. I don't want to post it here because of its length but I would appreciate an email from anyone willing to peruse it and critique it.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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I just drafted my shop policy and would like some constructive criticism and suggestions. It is on my website. This link should take you to it. Look on the left side panel. Gettysburg Signs
[ August 16, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Very well put Gene. I like the fact that you 're up front about design fees, fair use and intellectual property. Nice work on your site too.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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