-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Woman, if you ever want to start a sideline type of work you might consider your own pyschic hotline. I'm trying to finish a big huge burdensome job, so I havn't been posting much, but this very topic was on my mind. See, I'm thinking that I should move the three tier thing more into my advertising that the public initialy sees. That is, not wait 'till somebody talks to me about a sign, then show them the three tier posibilities, but the signs on the side of my truck might say "Budget, (Standard???), and fancy." The middle word is the one I'm having the most trouble with. There might be 4 tiers, with budget being knock-out speed stroke. And before anybody gets ticked off, I can actually make more per hour with those than other more formal styles. Kinda like the splash of the 4 x 8 world, but I digress. The Fancy will probably be a sandblasted western red cedar plaque, real flowing script lettering. This 3 tier thing is by no means the biggest part of my truck advertising, just 3 or 4 words along the side of my lumber rack. The company name goes boldly on the side of the truck.
Back to those actual words..."budget, PLAIN, fancy??"...Good, better, best??...Casual, Formal, Unique?? (That was intended to be a marketing type of thing, appeal to their image conciousness)...Overalls, Sport coat, Tux?? ...Work truck, Cadilac, Rolls??... ...Informative, Presentable, Stunning???..
OK, so it's late and all, but before I go too far into the image thing, I guess I have to go back to price. Around here that's REALLY important. So budget is a likely starting word for me.
Good post.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
all my banners are teh same banana banner material
same vinyl
two diferent prices.
cheap and normal..,, hmmmm maybe i need a cheap, normal and high,,
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
"Budget"-for the customer who comes in with a set price they can spend on the job. These are usually one and two color signs/vehicles done in vinyl with simple layouts and clip art. If painting, very simple hand lettering. Customer is happy and says thanks...no tip.
"Quality"-more color and design work than above, and may include original illustrations/artwork. Better quality materials used and some hand lettering included. In my case, the majority of customers fall into this tier. Not overly concerned with the price and more open to design ideas. Customer is happy...occasional tip
"Custom"-more apt to be time consuming, but well worth the time. Things like airbrush fading letters, hand painted scrolls, hand pinstriping, vehicle wraps, specially designed mounting systems and gold leafing fall into this tier. Customer uses words like cool, beautiful or awesome...may tip, but will definitely buy pizza for lunch.
and lastly... "Top End"-specialized materials and techniques like automotive paints and clears, hand carving, glass work, dimensional artwork, detailed airbrush murals, etc. Many of these jobs are more artistic than usual and involve a great deal of skill and experience. Also includes using multiple techniques to produce a unique design. Customer doesn't rush you, buys dinner at a nice restaurant, and tells everyone you are "the best". KICKASS TIP!!!!!
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Legible but Cheap Desperate but not Serious Pinkies Up
or
Kittanning Style Butler Style Pittsburgh Style? (not sure which is the tackier of the first 2 )
or
Good Better Best
or
Mom-n-Pop (charge extra for vynulling their OSB) Trailer Trash (charge extra for Microsoft Word Layouts) Yuppie Scum (charge extra for "graphic designers")
When you figger it out, I wanna see you work it into your website, www.wildfiresigns.com
"Here at Wildfire Signs, we strive for excellence. So if you are a cold-cream covered woman in a ratty bathrobe reading this at midnight, DON'T call us for a sign, go out and stand in the backyard and wait to be abducted by aliens. However, if you are a Hottie, a man built for sin that can have a quarter bounced off of any chosen body part, you can have the Custom Deluxe treatment on your 4x4"
Seriously, woman, when you choose the verbiage, make up 3 signs demonstrating the terms you choose....simple, tarted up, or WFO. Hang em in yer new shop and post pix of them on your website. A client can instantly see which style and/or price that they're willing to pay for. Think I'll do it too!
Love...Jill PS Chris IS psychic!
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Kissy, I've extended it to a 4 tier system to compete with the cut throats and the best of the best. My tiers are basic, good, better and best. Here's a sample of the different content
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been dealing with a lot of people who have never bought signs before so they're clueless. They don't know what price they have in mind because they have no reference as to sign prices. In my case, I was going to make up a business, do the 3 tier layout & use that to make the discussion easier. I won't be doing 3 layouts for each customer, just using the sample to aid in the conversation. You know, they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
I'm not limiting myself to just what this particular design is (i.e. all tier 3 includes gold).
And Jill, that website hasn't been updated since Si was a young'un.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Chris, If you care to take the time for find it, issue 96 of SignCraft has an article I wrote about this topic a long time ago. It goes into quite a bit of detail, outlining strategies to upsell when conditions are right. We use three tier pricing to help determine the budget, not to do three different sketches.
Checkers did four drawings above. I could take his last design and give three tiers of pricing for the production of that design. Painted, Routed/Sandblasted, and Routed/Sandblasted with additional layers. Any one of those can have three tiers based on whether you airbrush elements, gold leaf elements, or carve extra dimensions.
Even the first basic one can have three tiers: Cloroplast, MDO, or Metal Coated Lusterboard, not to mention each of them could have some sort of frame.
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Left to right: OK:$25 on 12"x18" Vynull on Coroplast Fair-to-Middlin': $40 on aluminum, same size, 2 colors Vynull w/hand-painted accents on TP "Fancy-Schmancy": $75 on Alumalite with edge trim, 2 colors Vynull (yella is SignGold) ? (sorry for my crappy Gerber export! This was a real job I did, and they opted for the third one!) Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That is what I'm talking about Mike, using these to aid in the budget and customer's wants discussion. There can be many options in each tier, and even numerous tiers. I really think having a picture to look at helps when you try to explain and get the 'deer in the headlights look'.
Gotta go see if I have issue 96.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I got my puter back up and runnin! Ok Jill, can I get the nicest layout on cardstock for $37.50? Can you do it in just one color for $30. If I order 5 can I get a break on the price? Maybe $22.50 each? If I bring you the materials can I get them for $15? Does that include installation? Can I keep asking questions until you just give them to me?
posted
Buy me some Coors Light and a Snickers and we'll talk. J.
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
We do a tiered pricing approach but all with the same design. Sometimes it may only be two prices, other times maybe three or four.
The design is done and the least expensive (I never use the term "cheaper")may be vinyl on a flat background (MDO, Aluminum, etc), while the next step up is some kind of dimensional (layers) presentation.
The third price may be sandblasted or cut out letters with PB Resin and some type of edge work (cove, etc) and on up to the "Sky Limit" with the works - hand carving, gold leaf, etc.
It's still the same design, just done in different materials and procedures. We have photographs of other jobs and samples on the wall to demonstrate the various levels.
While we don't always get to do the top end stuff, this approach does allow us to do some nicer things in the mid-range. Whatever they choose, they get a well designed, readable sign that will enhance their image...even if it is a "For Sale by Owner" sign for the yard.
There is no excuse for producing junk. Even if it is inexpensive it can be attractive.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I see that I should've named this 3 tier layout instead of pricing. Although, I think the same question would apply to either.
This is to be used at the design stage to try to get out of them do they just want letters thrown onto a (probably white) background, a nice layout or a killer layout that they just can't stop staring at. I think showing them these 3 'stages' can make getting a design fee easier, unless of course they want choice 1.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm enjoying this post...and learning a lot.
Tiered pricing seems to depend on the individual sigmaker's perception of the principle.
I can see benefits to both sides. Obviously it takes a lot less time to type in a couple of lines of text and cut/weed and apply to coroplast than to spend half an hour doing a bit of thinking about a better design and still applying it to coroplast.
But the same design done on increasingly more expensive substrates using more exotic techniques also demands more money.
Then there is the aspect that you aren't going to spend much time labouring over a design for a coroplast sign anyway.
Doing a gilded sign demands that more time is spent on design, of course. Gilding helvetica/ariel letters seems like overkill to me. (But then I have seen gilded Gemini helvetica letters that looked awsome on the side of a building too)
Just thinking/typing out loud.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
A selling point - We produce firecrackers, dynamite, and atomic bombs. You immediately get an "eyebrowse raising" response. They always ask what do you mean by that? Allow them. HOOK - Then answer, well, a firecracker can be heard by a few people (potential customers), dynamite will attract a lot more, but the "FIRE" will pull everyone in a 10 mile radius.
What do you want to invest in?
-------------------- Jeff Poitevint Sign-A-Rama Augusta 4015-M Washington Rd. Martinez, Ga. 30907 706-364-6393 augustasigns@comcast.net www.augustasigns.com Posts: 102 | From: Augusta, Ga. | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kissy, in that case I would use a ficticious business and do the three different layouts but with a twist. Instead of applying those tiers to an actual sign cost, apply them to the design labor. This way you can say "Simple basic layouts like this (and point to #1) will cost around $X. Mid Level layouts like this (point to #2) will be around $XX. High level design like this (make #3 off the hook) will cost around $XXX.
Use this same ficticious business layout with every customer so you can get an idea of what they can budget without wasting the time to do three layouts for every customer.
Once you find out where they are design-wise, then it's time to talk tiers on the actual sign.
Technically, you could spend the same design budget on any type of sign regardless of the fact it could be corplast or hand-carved. You could spend 4 hours on a design and apply it to either a corplast sign or redwood/HDU, in the same respect you could spend 10 minutes on design and use it on redwood/HDU or corplast.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Personally, I think many are going about this backwards. Within about 5 minutes, I could get the customer to tell me their budget using examples in our portfolio or showroom using a three tier technique. Once I know the budget for the sign, I can design the sign to fit their budget. The design and materials are all figured toward that "known" budget. If they were to bring me camera ready art, all I have to do is work on the materials, time and labor and not the art.
You don't have to do three designs. You just need to get the feel for what they want and what they can spend. Normally, the size is not one of the variables. I boils down to how many hours do I think it will take and how much to allow for materials within the technique we agree upon.
Here's the conversation: Mike: You need a 4 x 8 sf. How much can you spend? Customer: I don't know. Mike: Okay, let's see. We can do a very nice painted MDO sign for $450, or a MDO sign with some cut out letters on the main lettering for $1200, or we can to a premium dimensional sandblasted/carved sign for $6000. Customer: Well, what can you do for $1700? Mike: Hmmmm....I might be able to make a sub-frame and overlay it with tongue and groove cedar, then add some decorative bordering, some cut out letters and outlines for the main copy and a ribbon or panel across the bottom with the sub-copy. If you can stretch to $2000, I could probably add some dimension to the ribbon or panel. Right now, this is just me trying to help come up with some ideas, of course. I'd have to sit down and firm up the design and the materials, but this sounds about right based on other similar projects. Customer: I don't think I can spend the extra money, but maybe I will be convinced when I see the layout. Mike: No problem. Would you like to go ahead and give us the 50% deposit now or just a $300 design deposit today. Customer: How about just the design deposit of $300. Mike: Okay, give me a few days to fine tune the budget and work on a nice layout. When you approve the layout, we will need the balance of the 50% deposit to begin ordering supplies and start production. Customer: Sounds good.
------------------------------------ About 80% of our sales go like that. We just change the products, prices and descriptions based on their needs and the size of the sign. Many will take a price near the middle, but occasionally someone will go with the top one...and the top one was REALLY a top one to make the middle one sound like a bargain.
Occasionally, a job is too large or complicated to pull prices out of my hat during the inititial conversation. When that happens, I like to just get the information, then ponder all the options and then give the price ranges a day or two later.
Edited addition: It helps to have a good reputation. It helps to have a quality showroom full of examples along with similar signs around town. Half of the battle is winning their trust long before going through the sales process. Also, the "conversation" above is slightly condensed, but not by much. All you are trying to do is get them to tell you how much they can spend. If installation and permits are part of their budget, you need to know that, too.
[ July 30, 2004, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Golden ]
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, I can lighten up on the price but will have to delete a couple of designs.
Would you like the phone number of another pinstriper, I know several who work cheap?
This is what I ask after visiting a future customer at their home when I go there to check out their vehicles to stripe. Are those real gold fixtures in your bathroom?
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
...Work truck, Cadilac, Rolls??... ![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
...Informative, Presentable, Stunning???..
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/clap.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic