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Hi folks,I know that there are a lot of very talanted people here in conection with this subject ! I have just finished a two year part time course in signwork,for me it was mainly to learn the computer side of the buisness,i am a self employed decorator (have been for twenty two years)going back to my apprentiship days i did my City & guilds at college which included hand lettering ...gill sans & Trijan Roman.
I have kept this up over the years but recently when i was back at college we did some Glass Gilding !
This is what i know & i dont know about the subject !
First off we made a tracing in referse to put on the outside of the glass...then from the inside we painted a black outline around the letters !
Left this to dry..then made up the size with 500mls of hot water plus one gelatine capsule ! applied the size to the letter & then used loose gold leaf applied by the gilders tip.
then we used a hair dryer to dry the glass & burnished it up with cotton wool..
After this we did a double gild just to cure any misses. the steps i have mentioned above are as far as we went(college holidays) the question i have is when you gild the letter how do you remove the unwanted gold outsde the black outlne? i know that the gold has to be backed up!but what should i use ?
Thanks in advance Jeremy T...
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jeremy, after you have nmade sure the gold id really dry...get out your trusty quill ans "back up' the gild by very carefully staying inside edge of the outline. When the backup black has dried, wet it with warm water and carefully rub all the excess gold off. Now go outside and see if you missed any.
Protect it by covering with some ww window spar varnish.
Best advice is to buy a copy og Kent Smith's book on Gold Leaf Techniques.
Hope that helps.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you click on the Letterville Merchants link to your left you will find Canadian Signcrafters Supply and Letterhead Sign Supply. Both are excellent sources of information and supplies. If you are interested email me and I can send you a number of links with information on glass work. I use Dekor Ochre backup, but there are a number of alternatives. You want an oil based enamel that dries fairly quickly and remains fairly flexible at the same time. Like I said, if you want more info feel free to email me.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Thanks Si...that seems to make great sense ,the fact being that the back up black will protect the gilding when removing the unwanted gold ...Thanks a million !
Kelly thank you for your help to !..i might well be takeing you up on that e-mail...
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Si forgot to mention you said to finally varnish the lettering ..does that imply coating the whole letter plus going over the outline ...by say a couple of mil? ...thankyou again . Jereny T ...
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jeremy, Bravo! Glad you're asking the questions. First, We usually add a drop of detergent to the size if we're gilding inside an outline. The size alone tends to crawl away from the oils in the outline. The back up color is usually the outline color just to keep it clean looking on the inside. The outline color needs to be more impervious to UV than the back up though. When cleaning off the gold following the back up being dry, use a damp piece of cotton, wrung out, little moisture to clean, and we often use a tad of Bon Ami as an abrasive. When the varnish is applied as a final protection, it goes slightly onto the glass. Too much clear on the glass looks amatuer. Take great care and pride in this step also. Perhaps you might get John Jordan to speak up and talk about his jewelers brush. That was one of the most wonderful insights shared we me at a letterhead meet in years. Thanks Mr. Jordan!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks again Si & also thank you Rick I'm having great fun with this although not an easy thing to do by any means! Over the years being a decorator i have been asked on quit a few occasions when painted the outside of a customer's house,'could you gild my house name above the front door please'..hopefully soon i will have the confidence do carry this off.
It has been mentioned above ,when backing up make sure you stay within the original outline...Question?..as long as there are no misses in the gold,how wide should i make my back up outline..say on a 100ml letter?
Wish i could make it over to one of your amazing meets...thanks again.....
Jeremy T.....
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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How wide: say 2mm if you can manage the consistancy. It's to give the edge of the outline a 'ramp' so that anyone cleaning the window won't find an edge to catch the washing rag or squeegee on.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Hi Jeremy, Good to see you made it here,Glad your having ago at the gold again! Nothing more I can say these great guys hav'nt already said. Keep up the good work !
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Firstly, Thanks Rick for the wrap up, if you're at Detroit or Irishtown, New Brunswick it just so happens I may have a small gift for you.
Now to Jeremy,
Welcome to Letterville, with enquiries here you will be unindated with a wealth of information.
Now to your gold work.......I agree that you mark out your wording on a piece of tracing paper, this way you can see through it when placed in position on the outside of the glass.
Now, for say a 150mm. letter choose a #2 (which will give you a 2mm line) outliner and paint an outline (first) "around" the pencilled letter on the inside of the glass, when dry dust some Kaolin over the back of the letters. Apply the medium you are using to decorate the letter, I prefer goldsize with a small pinch of whiting or Kaolin, and put in the matt centre/highlight over the dusted Kaolin which will in turn go clear so that you can easily see and avoid holidays, as you cannot touch up the matt. When all this is dry gild normally, burnish when dry (shiny) and then patch gild. When this is dry back up the gold with Intenso black making sure that the black covers the gold and also goes half way onto the black outline. Allow to harden then clean off excess leaf with a small wad of damp, not wet, cotton wool with a small amount of whiting...
I prefer the Jeweller's brush Rick mentioned.
All this sounds a little complicated but really is very simple and quick.
If you need any further help...email me.
-------------------- Aussie John Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia
man makes a thing of beauty of that which he loves Posts: 148 | From: Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ian many thanks for your helpfull information !
Wayne good to see you here to mate..Can't get enough of this gilding info...the information you kindly typed out on this subject for me ,..i have saved & pasted it into a word document..Gilded a bit of glass over the weekend...does'nt look to bad,but still seem to be haveing trouble in removing the unwanted gold ! 'on a couple of the letters i gilded', i backed up the whole letter with imitation gold ,that seem to have helped ,when it came to cleaning of the eccess gold !anyway thats enough of me ramberling on...
John many thanks for taking the time to type out your very expert advice
with all of this help i just might oneday be able to call myself a glass gilder (Wonderfull Art indeed !
Jeremy T....
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jeremy, have you got yourself a copy of Bill Stewarts Book " Signwork"? Apart from being an essential part of your signwriters library the section on Glass gilding is excellent ( and very clear) Try handovers or wrights .
posted
Jeremy, if you're having trouble getting the gold off the glass itself, maybe you need to dilute your goldsize back to 1/2 a capsule, or 1/3of a capsule per 500mls water, as the gelatine,minute amount though it is, gives the gold it's 'stick' to the glass. Or else you could just rub it harder & with a slightly wetter rag,with some MILD abrasive as mentioned above by Mr Gold himself. (You ARE diluting the water size by about half just before the second gild to patch-up holidays, aren't you?)
Best wishes
PS Perhaps Aussie John could/would clarify the reasoning behind & process of 'scalding' the gild. I've often run a hot, very weak size over everything after the job's finished, since someone, (maybe Simon Reich? can't remember) suggested it makes the gild extra brilliant. I was never totallyconfidentI was doing the right thing though, and was slightly in trepidation of cracking the glass too!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wayne i do have Bill Stewart's SIGNWORK ,great source of information indeed !..unfortunatly i have not taken the best care of my book & there are quit a few pages missing,the book i have is proberbly about 20 years old had it since i was a grottie apprentice....think it may well be about time i bought a new copy ..
Ian that could well be the problem with the gold being difficult to remove...i will try a make a weaker size,i also used the same size to double gild the letter's...I've heard that also being mentioned about pouring boiling water on the glass to make a brighter gild ...(bit scarry i think)...anyway thank you again for your very helpfull advice
Jeremy T.....
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jeremy,My signwork is very old too ( and very well thumbed I can assure you. Do you have the edition with the odd oversize dimentions for making your own kit box? I borrowed my first read copy from our libary and had my brother make up the kit box for me . When he gave it to me it was huge!!-size of a big TV set and looked like a chest of drawers!!-My later edition has the proper sizes in it but he had followed the instructions to the letter!
posted
Wayne ,the book i have on signwork was issued in 1984,i know that they have an even more updated copy now!...as far as your kit box goes (plenty of room for all your one shot colours & brushes (sounds like your brother did a good job there !
Getting back to gilding ! did i do the right or wrong thing in backing up the complete letter in imitation gold ?
Is the inside appearance of the lettering as important as the outside ?
AS i mentioned previously , when it came to cleaning up the unwanted gold it seemed to be a lot easer to get into those intricate area's (to be removed)knowing that i would'nt disturb the gold on the letter, because it had been completed backed up ! (almost acting like a mask) to me it would be quit easy to rub the cotton wool onto the letter ( if it only had a thin back up outline,would it not be easy ..when rubbing with cotton wool to go over the outline (hence damaging the gold on the letter,...maybe my size is to strong & i am haveing to rub to hard at removing the gold & there for not haveing the same control when trying to keep the cleaning process to the right area ...Thats enough ! i'm sure you are all getting bored now ..(im not )I'm just addicted
Jeremy T...
[ July 26, 2004, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Jeremy Paul Taylor ]
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jeremy, 1st I assume you are talking about lettering with a pre painted outline which you are gilding.-if so then you gild as normal(use a weaker solution for your double gild) and back up covering the back of the letter and the outline as well (you probably will have a good gild on your painted outline as well as your empty glass so if you want it to look neat from the back side (and you should)then yes you will need to cover the whole area. If your doing gold letters (no outline) then you need to gild the glass area where your letters are going to be and then pounce your design onto the gold and back up that way. Back up with imitation gold at a pinch (if your gild is not very good and you want to make the best of a bad job sometimes) this will hide some of your problems. Otherwise(and of course all your gilds are excellent)Back up with your outline colour (often black) Clean of as perscribed by all these good people here, Soft cotton wool and warm ish water should be enough to shift the geletin size If not try (gently-especially if its not been too long)a little whiting . pencil varnish a nice uniform edge "Halo" on to the glass and all over the back of your backing up .Theres no real mystery about glass gilding thou, just another great thing to do ! As for being boring Jeremy,I wish I had this bunch around me when I was learning all this stuff -Heck I'm learning a lot from this post me-self!
I hav'nt tryed gilding a letter without an outline ! & was'nt really sure how to go about it . Practice makes perfect A ..Thanks again ..
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hi Jeremy, You are sure getting some good advice here.
The scalding, which I do all the time, as that is the way I was taught, will remove most of the clouding in the gold after it is dry. Don't worry about breaking the glass, I 've never lost one in decades of gilding, BUT it is a once over wet working top to bottom very quickly.
As for your other problems,
Hard to remove excess gold. I would guess that your size is too strong, use only 2 1/2 good quality capsules to 500 ml of water. Three quarter mix for second gild.
Cloudiness. Too stong a mix of size and /or not using Distilled Water to mix with.....a couple of drops of Ether to your size can help also.
Cleaning Off. Use as little as possible water, only a Damp piece of cotton and a little whiting. I always dampen the cotton and put a little powder in the palm of my hand and pick it up with the cotton by stroking it across my palm thus feeling that there is no grit in it. EXCESS water can work it's way under the back up and gild, I cannot stress enough only damp.
All this may sound a little confusing but in reality it's very simple and after a few jobs becomes habit, always remember.....Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
Have fun, regards John
-------------------- Aussie John Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia
man makes a thing of beauty of that which he loves Posts: 148 | From: Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia | Registered: Oct 2001
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Could you post information on the use of the jeweler's brush? Thanks-
-------------------- Catharine C. Kennedy CCK Graphics 1511 Route 28 Chatham Center, NY 12184 cck1620@taconic.net "Look at me, Look at me, Look at me now! I't's fun to have fun, But you have to know how!" Posts: 2173 | From: downtown Chatham Center, NY | Registered: Feb 2004
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All this imformation (fantastic) I am totally facinated & HOOKED with this subject now ! I would certainly love to learn more about producing matt centres ,which you mentioned above i did see an article in Signcraft recently on glass gilding the artist was called Jerry Payne.. great looking work !
I remember seeing some letters with matt centres & a bright gilded outline plus a black outline to finish it off ...superb
he sure has got the hang of applying that gold. I have been cutting my gold in half before applying it..but he was applying the whole leaf in one go ...(amazing)..anyway maybe I'm getting a little to far ahead of myself in wishing to do these other effects
Anyway thats enough of this gold talk..i better log off before i get moaned at again...
I will take a photo at some point (of my efforts)& try posting it !
Jeremy T...
[ July 27, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Jeremy Paul Taylor ]
-------------------- JEREMY PAUL TAYLOR CABURN ST LEONARDS COURT FORRES,MORAYSHIRE, SCOTLAND Posts: 73 | From: Morayshire Scotland | Registered: Feb 2004
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The jeweller's brush that Rick mentioned was a small brush, shaped like a shoe brush, when I was taught to gild some 56 years ago this was used as a very quick way to softly removed the excess leaf. Most damage to a leaf job is caused by excess water and worrying friction by rubbing with cotton wool and abrasive material.
The brush is a Jewellers Polishing Brush (purchased 50 odd years ago)and when I used it at the recent Conclave held at John Studden's Studio in Los Angeles last Febuary it caused quite a stir. Most of the attendees were taking some 25/30 minutes to clean off, where as the small brush removed the excess with no damage in less than 2 minutes.
Since coming home and on request I have searched out and found a very similar brush and will be taking a few to Detroit and The Maritime Meet in New Brunswick in August.
Hope to see you there, John
-------------------- Aussie John Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia
man makes a thing of beauty of that which he loves Posts: 148 | From: Caringbah, N.S.W. Australia | Registered: Oct 2001
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Would you bring some to Renmark too, and save one for me please?
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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