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Well I'm trying to expand my abilities a little bit. Want to try some gilding and then would like to outline it. Will also be outlining some masked painted letters to practice as well.
Learned a lot at Fred's Meet. But need a little advice on supplies as well as any tips you might have.
Being a Beginner, Plan on using, Patent Leaf and One Shot Quick Size, will be practicing on Alum. Panels.
Planned on using mask, Do I remove before or after size tacs?
What kind of Brush would you recommend for applying the size, and also need brushes for doing some outlining.
While I'm at it, will probably get a striping brush to start practicing, I think either the Mack 20 series or Excalibur, but you guys may have better advice for me.
Well simple questions for most so appreciate the help.
Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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I find your approach seeming backwards. Rather than practicing techniques, I think you'd be farther ahead practicing lettering.
When I was an apprentice I remember being teased by the older guys and listening to their comments as we'd drive across town. They'd see signs where the young sign folks would attempt displaying every trick they know on every sign. There would be reverse panels and script and casuals and romans and decorative bullits and some outlines and borders on one sign.
A series of well executed letters properly fitted together will get you farther than gilding with a mask.
I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but offer you some direction that might provide a continued excitement. Learn to letter!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6756 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well-put Rick! Gilding with a mask will also leave you a tall sharp ridge (when it's been removed) around the letters which can be difficult to outline neatly, compared with outlining a non-masked gilded letter. You're probably better off practising outlining some (dry) painted letters first, before trying on gilded ones, as you get no second chance-a bit of stray black on gold can't be wiped off! Best wishes!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dave, Rick's response is spot-on. Learning letter forms is crucial. So is practicing striping.
Anyone can gild from a mask. While it will teach you the rudimentary procedure, knowing how to paint your own lettering is so much more rewarding.
I had been painting for about 12 years when I first attempted gilding. That was 7 years ago. I am getting slightly better at it, but it will never be my forte. (I know I have a bad attitude)
You might want to try surface gilding some Gemini letters for a start, just to get the "feel" of it. And I would begin with variegated or imitation gold, just to get the idea. Everyone, it seems, prefers Lefranc (SP?) slow size. I've used Rolco and 1-Shot fast size and it's OK for the beginner. Just make yourself a test patch to do the old pinkie-drag in so that you don't screw up your letters.
I have never gilded using a mask but I assume the window of removing it is the same for 1-Shot paint, altho I think I've painted from a mask once.
As for brushes, I just use my trusty quills. I have an assortment of Lucos, French Masters,1 Langnickel red sable and my fave, a red sable from Germany. I prefer to use a Swirly-Q as an outline brush.
When we learn a new techinique, like Rick says, it's tempting to put it on every sign we do. I like to think of a sign as a beautiful woman. Sure, she looks nice with a pretty pair of earrings and maybe some lingerie.
But throw on bracelets, rings, a necklace, a feather boa, fishnets, spike heels, etc., and she looks cheap. Sometimes she looks best in the nude, with only her natural beauty as an asset.
Just my two cents. Have fun learning! Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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and here I am having difficulty spelling that wolf-whistle again Jill.....!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Dave, I agree with the above about learning letter forms and practicing brush techniques first.
If you're really set on doing the gold with a mask on a painted aluminum panel, scuff it a little before sizing. The size bites better to the panel. Typically, I remove the mask when wet, but if the lettering is complicated and I need to let it dry, the scuffing helps the edges of the size not to rip when removing the mask.
As for which brush, airbrush if you can. It lays down nice and even, and the edges are less prominant. Any time I've brushed over a mask, the size builds up in the corners and along edges, leaving heavy spots. it also makes outlining a pain to do cleanly. All the more reason to practice freehand brushing it on.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Everyone is giving great advise, and you should try to learn it the "ole way". However, no one seems to be answering your question. Can you use paint mask to surface gild Patent Gold Leaf? Yes. Does it look like the traditional way? Yes.
Now that I've ruffled a few feathers...heres how you do it:
First off; when you cut your mask, go ahead and have your plotter cut the outlines as well. I'll explain a little further on. Next, weed the lettering, but not the outline, and apply just like you would any other vinyl. Whats left is the mask with exposed letters, and an outline that hasn't been removed yet.
Next is the gilding. If your doing a small area, 1-Shot quick size will do just fine. If the graphic is large, a combonation of LaFranc 3hr. size and 1-shot quick size, in a ratio of 1:1 will increase your window of application time. It will also increase the time you'll have to wait for the size to *tack`up*. Do not remove the mask after sizing.
Surfacing with 23Kt. gold: Apply the gold normally, just like you would any other sign. Do not burnish yet!
Outlining Phase: Since the outline is already cut, gently remove the outline portion of the mask. This will expose the area intended for outlining. Heres the good part, when your outlining, you'll only have to worry about one edge.(the gold side) You'll see what I mean when you start outlining.
When your done, remove the rest of the mask, and you'll have a gold leaf letter, with an outline. Let it stand for a day, then gently burnish it with 100% cotton balls.
"Thats all folks."
Brushes: --------------------------------------- For size use a quill or a flat.
For the outlining, I do not recommend a pinstriping brush. Instead, use a liner brush. It will be easier to navigate the curves, and corners.
"I hope I have answered your questions clearly, and correctly."
-Rich
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6756 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I did see a few things done at Fred's meet in OKC. The guy I watched did exactly as Richard said. Mask the flame, with the outline cut. After that leaf was put on, removed the outline and put more size on the outline and outlined in silver leaf. It looked great to me and this guys work to me was amazing. So, I say to myself hey I can do that. The leaf part anyway.
As some of you have said I may be approaching it backwards. Well of course I am, I am a big rookie when it comes to hand lettering and striping, but it seemed like a good progression, in my head at least. For some reason learning stroke techniques on an outline seems like a first step to me since you will be tracing the outside of a existing font. And I would practice on painted lettering before screwing up some gold.
I'm the kind of guy who was a graphic designer (computer)first, not an artist, or pinstriper.
In my mind a lot of the people I see at meets are Artist, true artist. I mean I see some like the gentlemen I mentioned above and say that is something I could do, with some practice. On the other hand. There are some things you see and you just gotta say, I will never be able to do that. I'm not being unmotivated just realistic.
My point...is when you know nothing about something, you gotta start somewhere.
I really do appreciate the advice from everyone, you all make good points and have some good advice.
So to practice lettering techinques and forms as well as some pinstriping. Step 1. Buy some brushes, I think I got some help on that from above.
What's Step 2,3, etc... Be specific. remember I know nothing.(Just like Schultz from Hogans Heros)
Thanks for the help sorry about the rambling.
Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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This is just a note to clarify the opinions expressed about hand lettering and "tricks" of the trade.
Learning to hand letter will be a very rewarding experience. It will take years, but is worth every second.
As far as learning quick techniques to bring money into your business, learn every shortcut and "trick" you can find. Use them smartly and you won't end up with a gaudy mess. If you don't bring cash into the quotient you'll most definitely have plenty of time to learn lettering.
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Do you want to use the mask as a crutch or as a teaching aid? If you want to learn to hand letter, not just fill in the numbers, try this.
Do your lettering layout (let's say it's black text). Now, throw an outline around it (let's use blue and say 1/16"). Now, when you cut your mask, just cut the blue line. Put the mask down, and use it to put the size (or paint) on, but try to stay 1/16" from the mask edge. Mask is quicker for me to do than a pounce pattern, and my projector & I don't get along. And this method allows you to learn brush control, letter strokes, etc. instead of just how to slop paint in an open area of a mask.
If you're using this method when painting, remove the mask before outlining. Remember, this method is an aid, not a crutch.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And this method allows you to learn brush control, letter strokes, etc. instead of just how to slop paint in an open area of a mask. 
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