posted
Hello Letterheads, I did this small house sign with a granite background. i put a coat of 1Shot UV clear on to protect the granite finish. Then i put on a GMI paint mask, did my carving and when i peeled the mask off the clearcoat was very sticky and now won't dry after about a week. I've been baking it in the sun for about 4 hours but it's still tacky.
Any suggestions... Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Try taking it out of the sun. Are you guys running AC? Maybe put it in there.
I'm sure someone more qualified than me will chime in. I just know when I was having the epoxy problems a couple months ago putting in the sun was the total wrong way to go. I eventually cured in time.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
...If the "granite" (faux paint, right?) was totally dry, then maybe the adheasive from the mask stayed behind. ...If so, perhaps you could remove it with a solvent of some sort. (like RR ?)
posted
Steve, I don't use that much one-shot but they apparently do have a catalyst for their paints. You might try wiping off the existing uncured clear with thinners, or at least wiping "some" of it off.(as long as it doesn't attack the granite finish) Then try adding some catalyst to some clear and then re-coating. The catalysed clear might help "kick" the original stuff that remained.
I have done this successfully with gel coat and with polyester resin that refused to kick properly.
Just another thought.
Opps, just noticed that you had tried wiping before. Maybe just do the "adding catylist thing" without wiping.
[ July 04, 2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I'm guessing here, but is it possible, that, similar to what W.R. suggested, the adhesive from the mask reacted to the solvents from the 1Shot?
THe 1Shot may have seemed dry, but if it was still curing, rising solvents could have done it.
I know that I make it a rule to wait at least 5-7 days after I paint a vehicle, before laying any vinyl on it. This policy resulted after, a few years back, we painted a funny car body, sanded, rubbed and lettered it two days later, and the following season, when we had to change some sponsors, the adhesive from the vinyl had formed some "super-duper-monkey-snot" barrier, that I could barely cut through with lacquer thinner. I blame(d) it on the rising solvents and the adhesive interacting.
Strange as it sounds, try freezing it, (like in the freezer), and then trying to remove it with a grey scotch pad and a strong, slow-evaporating cleaner (like PPG DT440 - Ditzo).
You can always re-clear it after ya clean it up.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Also, I'd make a call first to check, but this might be an application where (and don't ever let it be said that I'm closed-minded, spiteful New York Pr*ck), Rapid Remover.
I'd check with Roger Bailey first though.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Another possibility is that the clear was only dried on the surface you can touch. Underneath, it was most likely still in a somewhat liquidy state (nowhere near fully cured). Then you applied a paint mask. When you pulled off the mask, it could've also taken off the top surface of the clear. If you took off the drier layer (not sure of the technical name), you removed the skin portion. You may have a long wait for the rest to dry, if ever. Just a guess.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Thanks a lot guys - i'm going to try all these suggestions - i baked it again today for 2 hours, no change - maybe the freezer will help - or the catalyst - or rapid remover - i'll let you know the results.
Thanks, Steve
[ July 04, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Steve Racz ]
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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but scrape it off & start again... tedious but it works! (& don't ask me how I know!!!)
P.S. did you use any IPA on the sign by any chance?
[ July 05, 2004, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Don't put it in the chicken coop to dry. (Just trying to add some levity) I'm with the adhesive reaction theory as it just bit my friend in the butt 2 weeks ago. For some reason, both the UV clear and the Super Gloss clear always feel the slightest bit sticky to me even a week after I clear-coat things with them. Gorgeous sign, BTW, Steve. Sorry it's been such a pain for you. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Could you use a single edge razor blade and scrape off most of the clear without damaging the faux? Then allow it to dry and add a small amount of catalyst to a topcoat of clear.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In my 25 years of painting signs, I have never uesd a clear coat! Why would you think that the actual clear coat will last any longer than the paint you did the sign with. All you are doing is adding another layer. The more layers, the more chance of failure. The layers under the clear may not be totally dry. Paint the sign, put it up and enjoy it!!! Get away from this clear coat obsession!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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Thank you all for your help and for the nice comments.
Ian - Thanks and what is IPA?
All - is catalyst a product i can buy?
Tony - agree on the clear coat - my only reason was i thought it might protect the faux finish from the paint mask especially since the faux finish had an irregular surface. I had a bad experience with paint mask peeling up paint on a sign (probably because i dumbly left the mask on for a week while we were on vacation... )
Brian - the sign's in the freezer as we speak.
If that doesn't work it's off to the scraper...
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
A catalyst is a hardening agent that is added very sparingly to enamel. Never add it to the can, only the amount you intend to use and throw away any remaining. 1 Shot makes some, and other hardeners intended for synthetic enamel (not acrylic enamel) will work.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd phone one-shot, I'd also have to guess that the mask adhesive chemically changed the clear.
and after 2 days if it's still tacky...well sorry to say but that is not normal and I'd be stripping that sucker and repainting it, without the clear this time.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This is probably an ideal time to add my voice to Tony's...and I understand why Steve did what he did, but it sure seems like an awful lot of people are clearcoating signs.
I see a significant number of posts regarding this subject, and it has always baffled me.
I've never cleared a sign, beit hand lettered, or done in vinyl, or any combination thereof. The exception has been when I had to surface gild something that would be placed in "harm's way", (arm's reach of those damned humans), in which case I just cleared my gold.
In all seriousness, I'd like to hear why people are clearcoating signs.
And, I hope everyone had (in the US anyways) a safe and enjoyable Independence Day.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
When I do small panels to give away prior to a meet, that will be shoved in my suitcase until given, I clear em. And once I clear-coated a sign with UV clear at the customer's request as it would be in a strong sun area and was a bright color. If gilded lettering is at a touchable level, or vynull at a pickable level, I clear it. I also clear window splashes that have been done in flourescents. But other than that, I generally do not clear over signs. I believe that Edge prints have to be cleared over? I dunno, cuz I don't have one. Just my 2 cents. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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In 14 years doing signs i have never cleared a sign (except for the one above... ).
But... i remember a few threads that mentioned the fact that today's paints aren't as good since the lead has been removed, so to compensate perhaps people are clearing???
Thanks, Steve P.S. the sign's in the fridge till tomorrow morning...
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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No, you aren't stupid at all. Brian suggested that (actually in the freezer) in an earlier thread so i thought i would give that at try since just letting it sit for a week did not good, nor did baking it in the sun for 3 days (2 hours each day).
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Actually,i dont think either heat or freezer or catalyst is gonna work on this one...usually,and i'm not answering for 1shot, uncatalyzed clears like that have a 30day or so timeframe before theyre fully cured and dont just feel that way...its just like 1shot and needs exposure to oxygen to cure from the bottom up....slapping the mask on too soon wrenched the monkey and stopped that from happening,the top skinned over just enough and whats left under there is still soft......i would seriously doubt the adhesive has anything to do with it. Sometimes the heat or the freezer will cause a 'kick' and speed up the process but if it hasnt happened by now its not going to. Sometimes,and i say sometimes,you can slightly scuff the surface and 'break it open' to get air exposure,but on a panel like that you're obviously not going to polish it after the fact so youre going to have the scuff marks to deal with....not to mention it sounds like its to soft underneath to do anything but ball up and make a mess. What I would be worried about in the catalyst suggestion is that whats catalyzed is going to try to bite downward into whats already there,and being uncatalyzed and that soft it probably an over 80% bet that its gonna wrinkle and pull up all thats soft under it....if what you're going over is catalyzed and just hasnt kicked,it works great,in this case i would guestimate that it wont be pretty. Sometimes if you're spraying you can make a catalyst/reducer mixture and mist it on like the old peroxide trick..... and sometimes it will save your ass b/c you can spray it sorta evenly...you also have the gold areas you need to worry about. See how stripping it goes before you redo the whole thing. Just an $0.08 gues from the non paragraghable side
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Steve, IPA is isopropyl alcohol, often used as a cleaner/degreaser/vinyl prep agent.
Clearing- I do it over something airbrushed, especially where the paint is thin, dry, foggy, or faded and where it was not possible to put the thin faint coat wet-on-wet. Rightly or wrongly, I use it as a binder/glue/protector especially against someone later washing the sign with a scouring pad. When I've lined & striped a horse- drawn vehicle, providing the owner wants to pay for it, I'll varnish the lot- it improves the look, 'magnifying' the whole thing, and is a protector of a sort. It certainly adds beauty if well done. I'm not meaning to contradict anyone here- interesting replies! best wishes
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Although I selcom clear a sign, some of the reasons to are that several of the current clear coats contain ultra violet inhibitors which would add to color retention and durability. Also, some clears are grafitti protection. Sometimes the appearance of depth is also desired.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Not trying to be a smart arse here and I don't know how much time you have it the panel. It seems to me that in all the time you spent trying to figure out what when wrong you could have made another and not cleared it and had it out the door. I love coming here and learning new things. And it is important to try and figure out why something happend so it can be avoided in the future. But sometimes S#*$ happens and it could be for any number of reasons. Many time just a freak one time deal that goes undiscovered. I really hate wasting material but I hate wasting time even more. Just my 2 cents
posted
Try a FOG coat of Krylon Clear. Dont get the surface wet, just fog it a time or two. I have done this in the past and it seems to activate the dryers that do exsist if any. Sometimes the batch of clear can be off by some chemical imbalance.
Ya got nuthin'?, ya got nothin' to lose.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thanks for the new replies. So much good knowledge on this board.
Here's the update.
The freezer didn't work.
I don't have any rapid remover to try but i've been meaning to get some anyway (i have rapid prep (which i tried with no luck) and the installation fluid). I'm also goint to try Ian's suggestion of IPA.
lol Steve N. - you are right - by this time i could have redone the panel. But i'm learning so many new things this week!
Crazy Jack - i'm gonna try the Krylon.
Gavin - thanks - the reason i initially thought the mask adhesive was part of the culprit was i have had traces of adhesive left behind from the paint mask before which i've had to clean off. However, to further reinforce your theory, this is way more than a trace of adhesive.
Also thanks to Rapid Ray who called me this morning to chat about this little faux pas / faux finish and other cool sign stuff. Sure is fun to talk to another sign guy with a passion for our great profession.
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
actually Steve, I was going to suggest you NOT use IPA, in case it was a culprit, getting itself absorbed in a lower coat and softening it, then failing to evaporate & dry before the top clear coat set.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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This morning, after letting the sign sit for another 4 days with no apparent change I decided to try to scrub the gunky mess one more time with mineral spirits.
After much rubbing with a paper towel soaked with mineral spirits, changing the towel frequently, I was finally able to remove the clear coat completely.
Also, the faux granite finish wasn’t harmed!
I have to touch up a few places on the gold but other than that I’m good to go.
Thanks again for all your help. Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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