I've just been asked by Steve Shortreed to discontinue our "First Monday of the Month" SignGold Chat Nights in the Letterville Chat Room.
Oddly, the reason that he gave me was that it's because SignGold pays me to be there. I never found that odd, because as a rule, SignGold pays me for my time. When I'm at Trade Shows, Open Houses, Answering Questions on the Tech Phone, or addressing concerns here, I get paid for my time. He said that if I "take off my SignGold hat and put on my Letterhead hat", that I'm welcome.
Apparently Steve's upset because some people at my meet this past weekend called him and told him of some "Letterville bashing" that was going on. I'm reasonably sure I know who called Steve, and of course, I'm disappointed, but let me say this out loud:
I did not say anything about my issues with Letterville in private, that I've never said here in public. And I've said them 'till I'm blue in the face.
Yes, I heard other people saying that they wouldn't do what I do, coming in here every day to look for SignGold inquiries. Some people here did indeed say some harsh things about Letterville.
I still maintain that Letterville is a good value at $500.00 a year. But it still sticks in my craw that anyone can come in and promote a product without paying 500 bucks. Steve says that's ok though, because $500.00 is a lot of money to some people.
Will the person to whom $500.00 ISN'T alot of money, please raise your hand!?
I don't question this sight's value, but rather it's values. The rules should be uniform, and should be the same for everyone here. If you pay to be a merchant, you can utilize the sight as an advertisement. I pushed SignGold into spending an additional $500 PER MONTH last year, to run a banner ad. Had it been directed to the right page on our websight, as I had asked, I could have shown the people that I answer to that it was a good value. Sadly, it wasn't, and that page (unique to Letterville) got no hits. Additionally, if Steve had taken down the banner at the end of the agreed upon three months, and not run it an additional three months (without anyone's approval from SignGold), he probably wouldn't have been so upset when SignGold wouldn't pay for the later quarter.
Stop me when I'm wrong Steve.
Steve says that Letterville is a "non-stop on-line Letterhead Meet". Well ya know what, it costs money to come to a letterhead meet and promote your product as well. Steve says he doesn't like the chat room being used to "increase revenues"...Give me a break. We're not increasing revenues..we're making ourselves available to our customer base, in yet another form, to answer questions and address concerns. I should do that for free? Why. I'm providing a service to SignGold, and they're happy to compensate me for it. Maybe it's this awful business sense of mine that has kept me going for 25 years now.
I'm not saying that Steve has less business sense than I, rather, that we view business from different perspectives. I'm in business to make money. Bottom line. And when I'm working for SignGold, my job is to:
A: Interface with our customer base, and address concerns.
B: Increase sales through increased use, increased users and new applications.
I found the chat nights to be very rewarding from the interfacing vantage point. As opposed to emailing back and forth several times...I could have an online conversation with someone, and help them out. And yes, people came in specifically to ask me SignGold questions.
I would ask that you refer all further questions to: SignGoldTech@yahoo.com
or call me on the tech phone, 585-415-7496
With the elimation of the SignGold chat nights, I'm going to eliminate the monthly drawing prize of the SignGold Starter Kits. It only makes sense, as they too, create goodwill, and frequently get people to try the product for the first time. And I don't want to be accused of using the monthly drawing to "incease revenues"
Steve...I still think you're a great guy. I've always enjoyed shooting the **** with you in person, or on the phone, but we operate in two entirely different realms of commerce.
On a posative note, I'm looking forward to becoming just a plain ol' resident.
Keep on keepin' on.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Well Brian I can say "Welcome as a Resident" I enjoy having your expertise here on this site and hopefully this will evolve into a more positive situation over time. I absolutely agree with you in regards to how you view business, I as well love my craft but I do this for money first, that is how we all feed our families. And I understand your position on stepping out of the merchant role and removing your prize as well(although I think you should continue to supply it as it gives customers a chance to try a product that many never would for whatever reason...and I already use signgold so that is not directed as me wanting something for free)but again I understand your position as well, however I would just like to say that in your frustration with this situation (the politics...the situation....we all know the drill and it doesn't need to be repeated) try to focus your frustration in the right direction (as I am sure you will) and not at your customer base that is here or may be in the future. This seems to have been a couple of rough weeks here in letterville and I for one think that all of us (including myself) should deal with these non sign other type of situations in a more private manner out of professional courtesy for each other, our products, our services, and our businesses as it seems like they never lead to anything good only people choosing sides and taking away from the purpose of this site (I think this site is about the sign industry, but am starting to wonder) ....if that fails to correct the situation well then I guess we take the next step whatever that may be to address the situation, but the politics around here have just been crazy lately. I for one appreciate all of your support and direction on this site and am glad to hear that you will still be active here, thank you for all that you have done and will continue to do in other ways, I really think this is a sad end to a great merchant, their product and their support of and on this site, too bad that it came to this and couldn't have been solved in another manner So "shake it easy, and keep on keepin' on!"
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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I'm here for information. And I've gotton more than my share. Some of it was even correct information. I have learned tips, shortcuts and methods of business administration and organization. But the most valuable information is what products best fit my signage needs. I have seen products introduced, lauded, questioned and bashed, not neccessarily in that order. This helps me decide on its suitability and affordability. One of the newest products I have used is Signgold. I learned about it here. I talked to others who have used it here. I have read about its alleged shortcomings here. And ultimately was able to express concerns about its application to an upcoming project to its representative, in an informal chat room, HERE. But I'm just a non paying visitor from somewhere in northern New Hampshire. What the heck do I know?
-------------------- Ron Costa Sign and Design 28 Ingerson Road Jefferson, NH 0358 Posts: 620 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2002
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Well Brian thats a real bummer because I feel you've always given your best helping persons who've used SignGold, and in the early hours so it wouldn't conflict with Letterhead chat which usually starts at 7PM pacific time.
Well theirs always Lettervillelounge on MirC which was put up some time back by OldPaint Joe, we used it for personal stuff when chat would get too many suits.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Sorry to hear of the decision that has been made Brian. I, for one, enjoyed yacking with you on the monthly "event" and never felt that you were pressuring anyone to buy SignGold, just answering questions and offering tips. AND participating in the general chat mostly.
I hope that you will, occasionally, continue to visit Letterville chat just to "shoot the ****". You are an interesting and knowledgable guy to talk to.
The only thing I can say in Steve's defence of the decision is that "Letterville" is his party. He created it, he maintains it and therefore he should be able to make the rules.
I still think this situation is a shame though.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I pay myself for running my business. When I'm there each day, I log on here several times. It is one of the costs of doing business in that I feel it has benefitted me & my bottom line far more then it has cost me in lost production, even if I do spend a bit of time writing on OT threads
So, if I'm getting paid to browse the site.. do we have a problem here? It's no ones business who makes what for what. Steve has a chat room, people occassionally send IM type invitations to join in chat, banning signgold chat is the most illogical rule I've heard of yet... but it is Steve's party as dave said. It's still illogical IMO as I said.
On the other hand, Brian has often referred to his superiors he has to answer to regarding the cost of various marketing expenses etc. It seems to me that however justified his salary was for signgold chat... it was still a gravy job (everybody uses that term right?) anyway, a sweet deal getting paid to chat. Now Brian's sweet deal for a few hours a month is gone... so? It seems Brian doesn't want to play anymore because one small part of the game has changed. Did his "superiors" (or whoever there called) participate in this decision, or was this just a quick retalitory decision Brian made as a result of a illogical imposition of a new rule that took a little easy money out of his pocket? (I'm sorry... but although I fully agree that his being paid is justified... I have no qualms about calling it easy money)
posted
Face it, Letterville has taken a turn in an unfortunate and terrible direction in the past month. I can only hope that those parties involved can get together and work out their differences and maybe make all this ugliness GO AWAY.
I for one dont feel good about losing Brian or upsetting Steve, but I see a division of Letterville looming over our heads right now, and I dont like it at all.
I have also noticed that certain people are not only allowed to tout specific vendors but they shove them in my face on a daily basis, maybe theyre getting paid or compensated to do that????
I have heard many peoples opinions of letterville in the years that I have been here and attending meets, everyone has an opinion and they're just like something else (you know what I mean) and they all stink
recently I have heard a few people say how they despise letteville. I personally love letterville but I see an unfortunate division of opinions growing at a rapid pace in the past few months. I sincerely hope Steve and Barb can pull in the reins and fix it before it gets worse.
Some of us already know the final outcome will be nothing short of total failure.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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I for one, hate to see Signgold leave. It was nice chatting with you and I wish more merchants here would do that. I never felt any pressure from you to buy signgold. If I remember correctly, the "pressure" was several of us pressuring you to get signgold to make a film with realistic turns.
We're always talking about getting new merchants to set up a storefront here and join in on the bb, so they have a face & voice, not just a store. While I respect Steve's decision on this, personally I think this is a step backwards.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Steve, this is just one (paid in full) resident's point of view, but if the once a month gig doesn't cost you or the residents of this site anything, why should Brian as a rep of this (paid in full) merchant need to justify anything? I was at Brian's meet and heard all of this so called Letterville bashing. Opinions were expressed by many people, but they were just that, opinions. Nothing hurtful was said and I think that if there are merchants of this site that are given preferential treatment in the form of reduced or waived fees because they "just can't afford $500." it's just plain bull****. You do own this site and set the rules, but as a (paid in full) resident, I'd like a list of the merchants who don't have to follow the rules so I can get a discount or freeby from them because "I just can't afford" to pay full price for their products. That goes for residents who think they can hawk their products without becoming merchants as well.
[ June 16, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Terry Baird ]
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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There's always 2 sides to a story. Fortunately, most of you in business have the luxury of conducting your business affairs in private. I try to do the same, but a few feel there is some benefit to be gained by discussing our business here on the BB. I'm not going to take the bait.
Brian and I have been chatting via email all day. Certain demands were made that I refuse to do. I've been waiting the last few hours for his response via e-mail. Instead I get a phone call telling me to come see what's on the BB.
SignGold and Letterville have had a great relationship for several years. In that time I've dealt directly with Bill Crowley and other reps without a problem. SignGold is a wonderful product. I've used it and endorse it highly.
Brian and I have been bumping heads since Day One. Part of the problem is that there are 2 Brians. Brian the PinHead and Brian the SignGold rep. I'm never sure with one I am talking to. I'm fed-up with the stress and arrogance. SignGold and Letterville will be going our separate ways when our present contract is up.
That's all I have to say. Those of you who love to bash Letterville are free to continue this post and get it out of your system. There's an old saying..."People of integerty expect to be believed. When that fails, they will let time prove them right." I like that quote. It's been almost 10 years and we're still here. Just lucky I guess.
Barb and I want to apoligize to the many, many readers of this BB that are forced to put up with nonscense like this. Pass this post by and concentrate on the posts that have questions and/or need answers.
Terry...when you have names to go with these Merchants who get free, or cheaper rates, I would like to know who they are too. We have an ad exchange deal with SignCraft, AutoArt and I think AMAL is now in that group. Who are we talking about?
[ June 17, 2004, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Steve, I'm not now or ever have been a Letterville basher, so I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I've got nothing but great things to say about what I've learned and who I've met at this site.There are many people here who take advantage of the loose rules (that is not a jab). Many residents (and non residents) pitch their CD's, flashlights, rolling carts etc. and don't find it necessary to fork up the merchants fee. As I stated before, it's your site and I rarely become involved in the grumblings and rantings. I'm not privy to the relationship that you and Brian share, but I've known Brian for some time now and find him to be an honorable and trustworthy friend who is never too busy to help someone. I know that he is more than a little opinionated, but so are 90% of the people on this site. As you can see by the lack of posts on my part for the last few months, I've stayed out of what I feel is a marked downhill trend in what I was led to believe was the reason that this site was founded. "Brotherhood of the Brush" is sadly not what I see when scanning the posts these days. At any rate, my post was certainly not a personal attack, and If that was what you perceived, my apologies. As a further disclaimer, the products above were not meant as personal attacks and are only a few of the dozens that I've seen while here. I think that the people who frequent this site need to sit back and think about their motives before posting (before it's to late).
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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Well actually Terry, I was a merchant here when I had my KillerKarts up for sale. I haven't made any more of them to sell since my first 250 and they're all gone. Its those who own and use them who have promoted their use. I only said this because you mentioned rolling carts in the above reply.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
bummer... I wish more vendors were like you Brian. All too often this site is a place where questions are asked and vendors never chime in or even check the boards to receive feedback on their products. Signgold was different.
I agree that the rules should be the same for everyone. Whenever you stand to make a profit from information or a product you offer, you should be held to the same rules as a vendor. Otherwise respond to inquiries with your sales pitch in email.
That's not to say that an individual should be stopped from directing another person to a company that can help with their question, as long as no personal gain is sought.
my thoughts.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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civilization, in all it's forms, seems as though it will always include some margin of what could best be described as anarchy. Sure there are rules... and exceptions to the rules, & circumstances that challenge the intent of the ruls, or the interpretation of the rules yada yada yada... but in the end most people play by the rules most of the time, as they understand them (which differs)& on the fringes... some people don't, some unintentionally, some more then others, some blatently... thats life & I don't see any organization ever being able to completely define & enforce any set of rules with 100% success.
That said... I think sometimes that it sucks that other guys will run sign shops from their garage, never use premium products, never invest in education & training, use cheap, old, un-maintained substandard equipment delivering marginal quality... & hold themselves up to be offering better value based on the "same" products at lower cost. It seems to suck sometimes to think that some sucker will fall for that, but in reality I will continue to spend huge gobs of money on presenting my place of buisness & my advertising image in the most professional manner possible & have no doubt that it is made up for in the people that find a sense of security, respect or confidence in that image & justify spending more money in order to do business with me.
My point if I am so obtuse now, that it needs further explanation, is that Brians company is very professionally represented here... joe-schmoe and his home digitized boat outline collections with free fonts & how-to-market-boat-outlines-at-home-for-fun-&-profit training videos is really no competition anyway... so big-deal if they are playing the anarchy-lets see-you-enforce-yer-stinkin-rule-on-my-ass game... we all see what goes down here, & in the big picture, the value of investing in doing anything right is really not diminished by the number of schmucks who don't. Kinda like the "crime don't pay" theory... seems false when some of these losers get away with schitt... but it all comes out in the wash.
BTW... my first ever signgold came from this site, & I've bought it twice since as a result.
posted
No problem Terry. I always take a few seconds to check the BB and see what has been posted while I hunt and peck out these posts. I saw your comments about nameless Merchants getting free advertising.
I've been hearing this stuff for months, but nobody would ever give me a name. As you can imagine, it's awful hard to make changes based on hearsay and secondhand information. Thanks to your post and some info off chat, we now have a better idea what that part of this post is all about.
Look folks. Barb and I have been going to Letterhead meets since 1983. We held the first meet here in Canada and started this website in 1995 as a hobby. It's sole purpose was, and continues to be promoting the Letterhead Movement and with your help, encourage others to get involved and provide a place where everyone could have a good time.
The website has grown from 22 people to several thousand. It now takes up more than 1 gig of web space and new people continue to join us everyday. It's the most popular sign related website in the World! As a result of this growth, we have a new fulltime job. It all sounds really nice, but we have some problems in Letterville.
All two often, we see people bumping heads instead of thinking together. Not a day goes by lately that we don't hear about someone getting a nasty email or phone call. Their crime? Posting an idea on this BB that someone else disagrees with. This sort of behavior is really upsetting and stressful. Some say they are actually afraid to post due to the actions of a few bullies.
One way or the other, it is going to stop. This BB is not the place to attempt to embaress or degrade others. We've worked hard to create something good here and are not about to see our dream tainted by a few with their own agenda. Attack me if you have that need, but please stop infringing on our guest's privacy anonymously.
Why was SignGold's Monthly Chat cancelled? Here's our version for whatever it's worth. This was just a small section in the last email Brian and I exchanged today. I know I am breaking one of my own laws by doing this, but they are my own words. Fact is, I never opened this can of worms.
quote:"That brings me to a discussion on what Merchants get for their $500 a year.
- A listing on our Merchants Page. - A changeable banner at the bottom of the BB. - Your photo and text that clearly identifies you as a Merchant. - An opportunity to take part in Monthly draws and get additional free promotion. - And the new Merchant Forum.
You gotta admit. That's quite a package for the money.
You'll notice using our chat room to promote products is not included. Our chat room was started in 1995 as a place where Letterheads around the World could gather to just chat. It was never intended to be used commercially. I've allowed it because I just assumed it was Brian The Brush, a fellow Letterhead, was just joining in the fun. I had no idea you were charging Bill to use a chat room owned by us, and free to all, to generate additional income. You can imagine how you would feel if I setup a fruit stand in your parking lot. I'm not interested in any compensation, just that you discontinue the SignGold chat and join in wearing your Letterhead hat."
So why today you ask? In a nutshell, Brian and I have been going back and forth via e-mail today about another post and a discussion between him and another Merchant. Certain demands were made that I disagreed with and refused to do.
Since we were already at loggerheads, I made the decision to remind him that company promotion in Chat was not part of the Merchant deal. Yes...you are right! I should have shown some backbone and nipped this in the bud a longtime ago. I'm guilty as charged. It needed to be done, but I set myself up good by doing it today.
One last request. If you have a link or any text in your signature file that links or mentions a non-Merchant, please remove it.
[ June 17, 2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
I hope my point isn't lost on you (and others). Letterville is a great value to a merchant. I have never said anything to the contrary. I have close relationships with people from TransferRite, West Systems, 1Shot and other companys, and have always urged them to become and remain Letterville merchants.
My issue was with the "free" promotion that goes on here. You want names...well just watch the board.
I wish I knew how to grab parts of an email, repost them here and use them out of context the way you do. I'd post the part of your email yesterday that said "I've read Roger's post three times and can't find anything that contradicts SignGold's instruction sheet."
Apparently, as you stated in your email, the FOURTH time you read it, you found it.
I asked you, not "demanded" as you say, as moderator, mayor or leader of this board, to ask Roger to recant his statements about applying SignGold with Rapic Tac, and not having to edge seal it. You refused to live up to that responsability, nay, OBLIGATION.
I presented Roger with a legitimate query. How will he know if the SignGold was applied with Rapid Tac. Barb even added to the thread noting that was a good question. And what about the Silver products, that must be applied dry? My point there, was that one merchant, Roger, had certainly overstepped his boundries by contradicting another merchant, in this case, SignGold's instructions, suggesting people by-pass an important step (which is required for warranty), and you wouldn't do anything about it. Yet you feel that I'm the bad guy because I get paid to come into the chat room to help people. I have to question that double standard, and obvious lack of consistancy.
I never intended to end SignGold's relationship with Letterville. I never knew that was your plan until this last post of yours. I'm certainly sorry if that has to happen, but again, it's your playing field.
I'm curious to see if I'll be allowed to become a resident, or am I "too far on the outs" with you.
You mentioned that you never butted heads with Bill or Artie. Well, neither of them had ever made the commitment to be here 4-5 times per day on behalf of the company. I'm the first SignGold person to try to get the most out of this venue, on behalf of both our end-users, and the company. THAT'S why I ask the questions I ask. THAT'S why I was the first one to get involved with the monthly drawings. THAT'S why I gave the banner ads a try.
Why does it bother you so much that I'm compensated for being here? Let me add fuel to the fire Steve..I'm getting paid to type this, right now.
I attended my first Letterhead meet in 1988. I believe in what the original aims were, within the movement. I still share my knowledge daily. Ask anyone who's ever made an inquiry of non-SignGold related products. I always try to help. I get paid everytime I address a SignGold question here. I DO NOT GET PAID when I respond to pinstriping, gilding, paint and automotive refinishing questions. I do more community/charity work in the Western NY area than any shop I know of. I'm a good guy. I do that because I give a ****.
There aren't "two Brian's" as you suggest Steve. I'm one guy. I have deep-rooted convictions. I'll fight for what I believe in. I put my money where my mouth is. I believe in this trade more than you can imagine. But I'm also not afraid to make money. You spout off about having been here 10 years. That is an accomplishment, one you should be proud of. I admire you for your commitment. But would it be a bad thing if you made a few more dollars while providing this great service? I just hit the 25 year mark in business. Money isn't an evil thing. It doesn't make all men bad. I live a pretty fat life here, with all kinds of nice stuff. It all has to be paid for, and I do that by thinking on my feet.
I hope you reconsider your latest decision about not allowing SignGold to remain a merchant. If you don't I understand, but at that point, it almost becomes a "you can be a part of this great community, as long as you don't upset Steve" thing. There's a fine line that exists between administrator and dictator. For everyone's sake, please don't cross it. It would be a shame with all the hard work that you and Barb have put into this site.
That being said, I am going to take full advantage of what parts of Letterville I am allowed to conduct business in, in the time that remains on our contract. If that makes me a mercenary prick; sobeit.
I thank all of you who have supported me on this and other issues. I thank all of you who have disagreed with me. Stand up for what you feel is just. I've relished the banter, both negative and posative. We can always be reached via our website (www.SignGold.com), my email, SignGoldTech@yahoo.com, or the tech phone, 585-415-7496.
Steve, your last request for non paying merchants to remove the links from their address lines, THAT'S what you should have taken a stand on a long time ago, not disallowing a paid merchant to help your constituents in the chat room.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is a wonderful, resourceful and predominately useful forum, and I can't emphasize enough that everyone should pay your dues, whether as a merchant, or a resident. You won't find more bang for your buck within the trade.
Keep on keepin' on.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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I'll just add to this post the fact that I enjoyed signgold chats on occasion, and it will be missed. It's also sad to have this aired out in public, I respect both Steve and Brian and choose not to judge either on this thread.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I appreciate the merchants that make it possible for this site to be continued. When this site started requiring operators spending numerous hours daily, seven days a week, the support from merchants became needed. I liked it far better without the commercial influence, but the revenue was needed and ad space was given to merchants that have genuine quality products and sincere intent for us end users. I appreciate the selectivity of whom the ads were permitted to. I'm glad Shortreeds didn't sell ads to McDonald's or Wal-Mart. The original intent was a non commercial site for folks to network on a friendly basis. Like in any family, we need to overcome obsticles that interfere with growing relationships and this is just another of those.
Brian, I sure hope you continue in chat and as a member of this site and that Sign Gold can continue as a sponsor. I'd also like it to have some non commercial aspects.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I appreciate your comments, as I do all the others.
Sounds like all you want is everything!!
Ya can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say.
With commercial sponsorship, comes commercials. It's like television...there is commercial free TV, if you're willing to pay for it. Outside of that, the free television purveyors have a responsability to their advertisors AND their viewers.
As for the Chat nights..that wasn't of my choosing. Steve asked me to discontinue them, and I have to respect his wishes.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I gotta hop in here. I just want to add my 2¢ and ask some questions. In the mean time, I hope SignGold, Brian and Steve can try to work things out I've observed over the many years I've been hanging out here is that Steve is a good natured person that doesn't like conflict. He really doesn't like rules and he hates to enforce the rules he has. The problem is when someone bends the rules a little too far and forces Steve to take actions that really shouldn't be necessary if we acted as professionals and adults. When it comes to advertisers. Steve has always made his point crystal clear. Letterville welcomes advertisers and appreciates their support. However, Steve's allegiance and support is to the 'heads that frequent this site. If an advertiser starts dictating terms, like they do in the trade mags, Steve will have nothing to do with them. This may be interpreted at being unprofessional. Knowing Steve, I feel it's his passion for sharing the truth of the trade.
Brian, Who are these free advertisers? I'm here daily, but have yet to recognize who these freeloaders are. Because I have a link to my companies web site and have suggested that a fellow letterhead contact me about a project they're working on, am I considered to be advertising for free? If you're referring to someone suggesting a good vendor that they use, I feel that's a tip, not an ad. A clarification on this would be nice. These tips should be followed up with call from the letterhead needing the advise to say "hey, I found out about your site at Letterville.com. You may want to talk to these people, blah, blah, blah". The one thing we all need to remember is that this is Steve's meet. It's open 24-7 and all are welcome to attend. Just because it's online, it doesn't mean that the same rules don't apply that would normally apply at a live event.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Its such very weak link from someone hawking an article that makes him or her coffee money verses a merchant promoting a mass produced corporate owned product. Is it unfair to attempt to link the two?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The only meet that I ever attend having vendors is one hosted by my primary supplier. A gathering I consider a Letterhead meet does not have vendors.
For many years Kent Smith represented numerous products and some were sponsors here. I find the concept of SPONSOR to be rather different than a vendor trying to promote his wares rather than to hold up the name of their product claiming to support what we do here. The difference is whether the vendor is supporting US or THEMSELVES. I understand we're all trying to make a buck, but the more confidant approach is far to my liking.
I'd be making signs for free if I won a lottery and didn't need to work. I'm not here strictly as a money hussle, I love what I do and I hope our supporting merchants can assume a similar committment.
I appreciate being able to use products where there is a person that I can know that represents the product that I can contact and ask questions and get support when needed. I think Chromatic might have been the first in this new wave of giving human form and personality to a corporate product. Then Todd did the same with Signs of the Times, and many others followed suit. Brian, I appreciate your participation and use the product more confidantly knowing you're a phone call away. Consumer support and information are vital, but mostly when asked for on a need to know basis.
I do not listen to radio stations with commercials either, and don't do television. Most of the products I use are the result of word of mouth and informational flyers and calls from the supply houses we deal with. I get lots of info about Sign Gold from PSS.
'nough said. Good day.
[ June 17, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Then let's elimnate ALL fees, resident and merchant, and see how long this site can operate.
I love what I do as well Rick. And no, it's not all about the money. But I've NEVER been to a Letterhead meet that didn't have vendors/sponsors. Even the smallest of meets has someone supporting it, in some fashion, be it materials, supplies, or righting a check.
And c'mon man..GET TO A MEET!! Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Brian, I get to least a half dozen meets a year. Meets where folks come from far away places and the charge is often $15 a day to cover the porta potty and donuts.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Steve is an easy going guy who hates confrontation....but you pushed the matter too far, causing him to act on it!
Chat Channel is/was designed to be a social spot for people to exchange ideas, jokes, and other information, NOT a commercial venue!
Most 'chatters' now wind up using the "green button" because in an effort to keep out commercial spammers, mIRC has become too difficult for many to properly set up. setting up your very own little "vendor nite" is in the same vein! can you imagine what "chat" would be like, if all the other Merchants set up their own nites?
My suggestion...set up your own chat channel! Just think...#SignGold! You could be on every nite!
Just my own humble opinion!
[ June 17, 2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I fail to see how I pushed anything...but perception is everything.
And from where I stand..if the other merchants got as involved as I tried to..everyone would benefit.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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so true Brian, so true you can bank on it, but when your peers suggest that this private business be handled in private... now that is another "point well missed"
... but not missed by everyone I might add.
BTW, glad to contribute to the banter, I think the issue is of interest to us to a point. I like your products & your posts... but, I think you have a tendency (like I do in a big way) to take things past the point that is productive. As a merchant, I think you have more to lose then I do... & you are not the first merchant I have shared that observation with.
It's Kinda like me trying to not drive as aggressively with my vehicle lettered with my company name.. not that agressiveness is to the point of danger, or even disrespect... but possibly to the point that the "perception" that it might be could be counter-productive to my business.
[ June 17, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Stress is a killer, do yourself all a favor and quit while you are ahead. High blood pressure is fueled by anger and harsh words. our world is stressful enough without "friends" causing grief. Letterville is a hub of creative,wise,mature people, many highly respected in their communities and fields.All this is not productive, give your selves a break.pull the pin on this string..fiddles
I read through some of the posts, and I do not know about the "Letterville" politics, but I am sorry to see that you will not be with Letterville anymore as a Signgold rep. As you know I have chatted with you a few times about questions & concerns reguarding Signgold, and I always found it an asset to Letterville to have you here as both "the brush" and as a Signgold rep.
-------------------- Devin Fahie Sebago Signworks Rt. 302, Raymond, Maine 207-655-6622 devin@sebagosignworks.com Posts: 96 | From: Raymond, Maine | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I'm sure other merchants are looking at this, not the best use of this site, imagine holding a sign that says "This guy conducts poor business" in the middle of his shop....justify it or take sides, this is poor judgement and a bad business move.....
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Brian,.....#Letterville chat is a public webnet internet chat room maintained by volunteers along with Steve ad Barb. Those volunteers along with Steve and Barb have kept the room open with their continual efforts for several years now. Those volunteers usually have to keep order and maintain the room so there are no unsolicited intrusions and or rude behavior. Someone has to take this responsibilty so that people,...even you,...can come and have open disussions on a daily basis,....24/7. Folks drop by from all over the planet,....at all times of the day and night. The rules are simple,....drop in,....introduce yourself,...Chat and be nice. I won't go into detail much further,but it takes alot of work to keep out those intrusions from unsolicited intruders,...anything from porn spam attacks to rude visitors,wanting to impose their own morals/philosophies/politics. Upon occaision there are disputes that have to be dealt with to keep the room hospitable for the majority rather than the individual. Mistakes have been made but for the most part the results of the efforts of these volunteers have kept the chat room open and available to those so interested as to participate.
I guess the key word here is "unsolicited". The chat room has been a place for years where folks come on a nightly basis for help and advice,..."without bias". Every week folks drop in asking for help and advice on trade related issues ranging from tech advice on software to proper trade practices. Many the night I have seen someone profit from the simple effort of typing out a question and listening to the "unbiased answers" they recieve. We often as not discuss traditional gilding practices as well as the use of the product you represent.Where do we draw the line here? At Letterhead meets the merchants can particpate for a fee, but rarely are they allowed to rename the event. For that fee they are not allowed to come back to the meet sponsors' shop and or venue and hold subsequent exhibits and or seminars on a weekly basis. If any integrity of the "non biased" nature of discussion and learning atmosphere of the chat room is to exist then the responses given in the chatroom have to be just that,..."non biased" . While we both have had many great discussions on #letterville chat, and I have personally seen you assist in a very admirable fashion on all occaissions I have had the pleasure of chatting with you, I have to side with Steve. The chat room #letterville should not be for sale and or advertising space should not be sold there. It would create far to many conflicts of interest and open the door to corruption of the intent and purpose of the efforts of those who participate.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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