posted
Todd, you have said what I have been thinking for the past few days but couldnt put into words.
Face it, Roger your beginning to sound like a traveling Snake Oil salesman. Give it a break.
If you feel your product can be used in violation of a manufacturers installation recommendations then I suggest you offer up samples to the manufacturer and ask them to test it. Then leave it up to them to decide if they want to recommend use of your product with thier warranty.
This will keep you from ****ing off too many more RT users and potential users.
Your products work great, but dont shove things down our throat without facts to back them up. Your testing isn't good enough evidence to most people here considering its your product. Let tha manufacturer of the vinyl test it and then recommend it if they feel its safe to use with thier product.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Perhaps Tim can check back in with us and correct me on any technical miscues I make here, but I wanted to try and answer Jeff's question. I love reflective vinyl and all the great effects that can be achieved with it. I have an analytical mind anyway, so I've casually researched the stuff for many years. Think of it in terms of the layers-- beginning with adhesive, then the color layer which some (all?) manufs combine with aluminum particles, on top of this is the layer of glass beads which are sealed/suspended in the clear top layer. The spherical beads diffuse light, both incoming (source) and reflected, thereby magnifying it. Seems logical that aluminum would add to the reflective properties of the color layer. Diameter or layer thickness of the beads probably determines reflective and/or viewing angle. And quality of adhesive and other matls determines the various grades.
That's how I see it, anyway.
I've never had failure with wet apps (20+ yrs), and by now I've probably made it clear which solution I use , but that is probably irrellevant. What IS important, I think, is to get all the moisture out as quickly as possible to prevent interaction with the aluminum. Squeegee hard and thoroughly and then heat it up with a heat gun if you cant put it somewhere in the sun. (translation: do not do it wet, in the wintertime, in Canada).
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Actually, Avery tech support has been emailed and they responded early to this post giving the reason wet app is not recommended.
A year or so back, I had a lengthy phone conversation with a knowledgeable rep from one of the major manufacturers on this very subject. While still not endorsing wet applications, he did tell me that Roger has done his homework and Roger’s product was of high quality and not likely to produce problems.
Whether Roger or the manufacturer warrantees the work, we all have to remember the first rule of entering any aqueous environment, “Swim at your own risk.”
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5101 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks David, that's a damn good rule and couldnt have been more perfectly placed in this thread.
I was kinda tryin to CMA since my post was based entirely on observation/assumption and not from any direct contact with a tech rep. My guess is that a lot of the things I'm running on about are trade secrets. I've always been curious about how they manufacture the beads and maintain a uniform diameter. It's probly very simple.
I'm also guessing that the brand of soap in the app solution is a factor. I use only joy or baby shampoo- but I would bet the ranch that additives in some brands might accelerate the oxidation process. Aluminum is one funky metal- anyone who has ever splashed a mercruiser outdrive in salt water knows what I mean.
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I'm gonna bet it all comes down to the Warranty Game. If anybody is gonna warranty something, they are gonna do everything possible to limit their own liability. Roger could make the best thing since slice bread and the vinyl manufacturers are never going to cover a failure if RT was used. Everyone is always going to look for something to blame other than their own product, plain and simple.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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David,attempting to alert some on this post that this guy has already posted an answer:
Tim Doyle Avery Dennison 8695 Seward Road Hamilton, OH 45011
and if i may add has gotten completely ignored,probably a blessing for him,would prove to be probably about as easy getting bears not to cr*p in the woods but you deserve credit for at least paying attention. But why o why would we bother to listen to either a manufacturer or anyone who works with them???If we took the collective attention spans on this post over the last week or so that actually related to the topic,mashed them together and stuck em up a flea's a*s it would look and sound like a bb rolling around the inside of an empty cargo container. And now,because we apparently have people who gave up careers as nobel laureate neurosurgeons and do signs now merely to pass the hours,we resurrect this thread time and time again not to give further answers or expand on what was said by those who know,we keep dancing around the original point of the whole post for no other reason than to try to prove that you're smarter than someone else....a vision no doubt that came to you during the hours and hours you spent in intense formulation of your own backwoods cousin ernie versions of every commercially available sign product and one that hasnt been clouded in the least by the fact that none of you are in the app fluid biz, reflective vinyl manufacturing biz....... or even have a remote prayers chance in hell of entering. But why stop there?????? Hell quick tell us how to stack the sheets of loose leaf paper and how much weight we need to put on top of it for how long so we can all make our own MDO? Or how many times we actually have to roll over coke cans before they get to .040 and we can glue em to coroplast and make our own alumalite. Hell,a few books of gold,some elmers glue and a roll of vinyl and a long wall and the hell with signgold too. Its absolutely hysterical that you're pretending to be so upset that one manufacturer will say something that voids another manufacturers warranty yet its ok for you to do the exact same thing then contemplate the diameter and thickness of the spherical beads in the reflective and the refraction index of the light??? How ridiculous can this get?TRADE SECRETS???? WTF Gus the only thing anyone is looking for at this point is for someone to step in and tell you you're right and you hope that by continually harping on the same points over and over its gonna happen.....if any of the self serving cr*p that went on and got said in this post is a trade secret then its time for a career change for a lotta people b/c this biz is in deeeeeeeep you know what.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Gavin- It was late and I felt like typing-- just tryin to give a diff view of the product and maybe help others to look at from new perspective. After all, the thread IS about wet/dry reflective apps. I'm always curious about how things are made, especially when I depend on em for my work. What exactly is it in adhesive that makes it sticky? (yeah, yeah- the glue!) I think about things like that, so what? As far as trade secrets, I doubt very seriously that you could get 3M or Avery to explain exactly how they manage to get one side of a layer to appear red while the back is aluminum. And what's wrong with wonderin how to manufacture a tiny glass bead?
I guess my engineering degree is partly to blame for making me think like I do. Didnt mean to get your panties in a knot. Decaf?
That Signgold thing was hilarious- you might be on to something!
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Here's a different look at this whole thread....
How many of us in Letterville use mineral spirits, auto reducers or turps in lettering enamel, despite the manufacturers suggestions to use the reducer they formulated for it? Ever skip a step becuase you're in a hurry and have it actually work? Have you mixed paints from 2 different manufacturers and had them curdle?
I'm guilty of all of the above...more than I'll ever admit in public.
Bottom line is, if you want to do something outside of the manufacturer's reccomendations, play mad chemist, or even delve into an aspect of signmaking that you've never tried before, without doing a fair amount of DIY testing, you not only can void a manufacture's warranty, you may end up eating the whole job out of pocket as well.
I have little doubt that Roger, Avery, Signgold, Orcal and others have done thorough product testing. It's the foundation of their warranties and installation instructions. It ain't rocket science...if you think your going to have to "fudge" with it, either look into a better product, learn to use it properly, or pass it up for someone else to do.
Going back to the first post on this thread that asks "why not wet?", a basic question. There's been a lot of interesting information on warranties, how fabrication of reflective films is done, risks and benifits, and unfortunately, some "difficult" communications.
Although I've never worked with reflective vinyls, if and when I do, I'm one person who's better informed that a week ago.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night, when you pass by a bus stop, and you see three people waiting for the bus.
1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die.
2. An old friend who once saved your life.
3. The perfect partner you have been dreaming about.
Which one would you choose to offer a ride to, knowing that there could only be one passenger in your car?
This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job application. You could pick up the old lady, because she is going to die, and thus you should save her first; Or you could take the old friend because he once saved your life, and this would be the perfect chance to pay him back. However, you may never be able to find your perfect mate again.
The candidate who was hired (out of 200 applicants) had no trouble coming up with his answer. He simply answered:
"I would give the car keys to my old friend and let him take the lady to the hospital. I would stay behind and wait for the bus with the partner of my dreams."
Sometimes, we gain more if we are able to give up our stubborn thought limitations.
Never forget to "Think Outside of the Box."
However, the correct answer is to run the old lady over and put her out of her misery, have sex with the perfect partner against the bus stop, then drive off with the old friend for some beers.
[ June 27, 2004, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Jay Nichols ]
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Jay your one twisted individual but I like your way of thinking.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bob, do youself a favor... paragraphs are a good thing, but struggle through Gavins post if you want a good laugh from an original thought.
oh yeah.. before you give Jay too much credit, go to google & type in "However, the correct answer is to run the old lady over..." You can take your pick from dozens of sites to copy this twisted way of thinking... (already in paragraphs too)
...the job-winning solution is rather obvious, but if you need some help, the twisted, sexist, off-color "right" answer will gain you the respect (or at least the fleeting attention) of the other drunk guys at the bar.
posted
Next time i'll use braille...it wasn't hard really
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I came in, anticipating giving Todd and Harris a little bit of credit for standing up and saying "the Emperor's NOT wearing any clothes".
They picked up on what I'd been trying to say for over a week. The majority of the people chose to hope on the "Brian's just a wind-bag who's in it for the money" bandwagon.
I commend Todd and Harris for being able to see through the smoke and mirrors. All I'd been trying to do was defend my product's instruction sheet. With all the mob-mentality pro-Roger and Steve crap, I ended up having to defend my own integrity.
I would now suggest you read Roger's "Product INFO" post. As soon as everyone stopped kissing Roger's ass on the playground, he got upset and took his ball and bat home.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Even when you "recanted" your statement about your "SignGold Warranty", you had to get your jab in about a "product that will delaminate withy or without the use of RT products".
Like I said, a couple of people agreed with me, and all of the sudden you don't have the mob on your side...so you announced your departure.
That's too bad. Rapid Tac Products are good for what they are.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by BrianTheBrush: I came in, anticipating giving Todd and Harris a little bit of credit for standing up and saying "the Emperor's NOT wearing any clothes".
They picked up on what I'd been trying to say for over a week...
actually they very well may have come to that conclusion independently of anything you had to say Brian... in fact I think most of us here are intelligent enough to figure out on our own NOT to disregard your products instructions when another vendor says he thinks you could get away with it.
quote:Originally posted by BrianTheBrush: ...The majority of the people chose to hope on the "Brian's just a wind-bag who's in it for the money" bandwagon.
I commend Todd and Harris for being able to see through the smoke and mirrors. All I'd been trying to do was defend my product's instruction sheet...
I think you've been defending more then that lately... it seems like you've been running a defensive pattern every since the signgold chat issue & it's tainted every post with a "victim" mentality... which is a shame because we all know your a exceptionally talented guy promoting a great product, & you are obviously well liked by all who have met you & many who have not.
quote:Originally posted by BrianTheBrush: ...With all the mob-mentality pro-Roger and Steve crap, I ended up having to defend my own integrity.
I would now suggest you read Roger's "Product INFO" post. As soon as everyone stopped kissing Roger's ass on the playground, he got upset and took his ball and bat home.
I've read all the same BS you've read & if there was any "pro-Steve" commentary, relative to you, it had to do with support for his right to ask you not to charge your company for hanging out in chat once a month. Any "Pro-Roger" commentary amounted to many people value his products, as many value yours. I don't believe I've seen anyone taking sides between you & he on what I think most here would agree was a non-issue regarding his edge-sealing opinions.
You make it sound like anyone agreeing with you deserves credit for figuring out what YOU have been saying for a week, & anyone who agrees with Roger is "kissing Roger's ass on the playground"
quote:Originally posted by BrianTheBrush: I'm being forced off of the websight. I don't have any choice. I would have remained here if I could have.
speaking of "getting upset and taking your ball and bat home" you have been repeatedly posting about "getting your ass kicked" off the board. IMO I think you were too stubborn about your viewpoint on the chat issue to play by the rules. Now you should be dignified enough to take responsibility for choosing that stand & refusing to stay under the terms offered. We often compare notes here about "firing customers" They may be accustomed to coming to us to have our professional help in meeting their advertising needs... but if we have our own policies for doing business, we don't owe them a continuing right to have our help with their advertising if they disregard our rules.
Oh look... we've circled all the way back to "disregarding rules" I guess other people don't like that either Brian.
Once again, you're sharing your knowledge and insight, on something you don't understand, or have all the facts on.
A: Roger's "opinion" as you called it, being a "non-issue", was actually Roger's announcing that he would warranty any SignGold applications that were installed using RT, and not edge-sealed. Does that sound like a non-issue to you?
B: My being asked to leave was indeed the result of some issues, including the fact that I had been paid to be in chat once a month. But was I asked to leave because I refused to stop being paid, as you state in your post above? No. I was never even offered that option. Steve is not renewing with SignGold/Me, because as he states, "he's tired of butting heads with me".
So don't make it sound like I'm having to leave because I refuse to follow the rules, your self righteous crap ain't even close to what has transpired. I play by whatever rules are set down, and I was never told that I couldn't be in the chat room and be compensated for it. Even when I told Steve this 4 months ago, he didn't ask me to stop, or tell me I was violating any rules.
ALL of this, would have never happened, if, on day one, when I emailed Steve, out of the public view, and asked him to take control of this situation, he had done something. He chose not to.
So, with all due respect; and I usually do respect your input, you are wrong.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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, but that is probably irrellevant. What IS important, I think, is to get all the moisture out as quickly as possible to prevent interaction with the aluminum. Squeegee hard and thoroughly and then heat it up with a heat gun if you cant put it somewhere in the sun. (translation: do not do it wet, in the wintertime, in Canada).
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