posted
I get so tired of clipart sites that say they are free but when you finally find the image that you need and then it pops up with a amount that you have to pay. Are there sites where the clipart is really free.
I just got another bus to do and it has been requested to do a jazz theme. I am looking for musicians that preferrably have suit jackets on and are playing their instruments...preferrably a clarinet, sax, bass, drum, and trumpet.
If I can't find the musicians then I would like to at least find some realistic instruments.
[ June 07, 2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
What, these people couldn't find some one to do the bus for free? Come on Laura, pay up. You'll feel much better buying something decent than getting the proverbial "you get what you pay for" crap.
That, or draw it. Either way the customer has to pay for it.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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You are missing PART of the point Dave. I am fed up with these web sites that say FREE. Then there are so many of them I get tired of looking thru them all, looking for the FREE one. And when you are on dial-up its even longer.
Besides, I don't draw or paint.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
This post brings up an issue that has always boggled my mind. When a company promotes themselves as one that provides "graphics and signs" .... isn't providing graphics part of that job description as a service for which one charges? What part of that equation involves relying on yet some other source to do that for free?
It would seem that the job prerequisite for a graphics person would be having the skills to come up with the apporpriate graphics for any given job, or farming out the work to those who can.
If you sell someone plastic letters, do you search the internet for someone who supplies them free? Not hardly. Yet designing a graphic entails so much more (if it's decent) and yet seems to command less value in some folk's estimation.
I dunno. I just don't get it.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
With all due respect, I have no sympathy for your frustration of looking for a free site and then finding it ain't free to begin with.
You have just fallen prey to the biggest bait trap in commerce that exists, kinda like a mouse and some cheese.
Laura I also believe anyone who is in a Professional role of owning a sign shop ought to posses the skills to provide artwork, hire the talent or possess the source for it.
If you want to do work in this area of the business then you either need to fill this void or accept this as your Achilles heel.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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You buy a signshop even though you can't paint or draw. Ok, so maybe you figure the signshop is just a business venture for you. But when you need artwork, instead of paying for it or paying someone to create it, you waste unknown hours looking for free artwork. That makes no business sense.
Perhaps you can have your accountant draw it for you.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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You also have to be careful to find the difference in Royalty free and copyright free.
There are lots of sites like clipart.com that are royality free, but the second you make a $$$ on the artwork or photo you now are in violation of Copyright laws. I don't know what the laws are, but I know it becomes a real nightmare.
I think you are better off to hire it out or to buy a CD of quality clipart.
Mike
-------------------- Mike Milos PrintSation Banner D-Signs & Graphics 489 S. 13th Ave Brighton, CO 80601 303-726-6513 Posts: 50 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Jun 2004
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Well Nettster, Bob, Chris and David have finally caught up with me, welcome to the real world hehehe Now you know how frustrated I get when I read all this crap about wanting free everything including knowledge which has taken years to come by. Experience to do the job and imagination to do something different. Its all relevant.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
But that's like asking for a free panel saw..or a free cutter.
And yes, I understand that your frustration arises from something that is proported to be free, and then isn't.
I for one, have been providing original artwork to clip-art companies for a long time. A fair chunk of my income is royalties that I get for said artwork. So from that standpoint, I thank you for not asking someone to copy their clipart collection for you for free.
But nothing's free. Clipart is an essential tool in the sign business today. And as in all businesses, when you pay for better quality tools, you can produce better work-faster.
On a personal, somewhat cynical note...sure seems strange that someone who thinks that a $189.00 admission to a letterhead meet is a great value, doesn't want to invest in clipart for a paying job.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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...Anyone that is in a "creative" business had better be able to actually create artwork... or (perhaps) they are in the wrong business. Designing art is part of the "job description" in sign making (or it is for comprehensive "quality" shops).
... If you can NOT draw, hire someone who can ! There are plenty of starving "free lance" artists out there.
...That said though, there really aren't many really creative signshops anymore, are there? Most are in it for the money - only. ... sad.
posted
Sorry Laura, I gotta agree. The reason we are in business is that we CAN create, selling a product to those who cannot, ot simply don't have the time to do so. I have an extensive library of clip art and graphics, which I did not get for free. Why should you or anyone else? Just like vehicle templates...where do we get the idea that these are free?
Pondering,
[ June 07, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Sounds like that would be a fun job to FREEhand. All in 1-Shot of course. Thank God for my mental library of clip-art! Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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You know guys, to my knowledge I can't think of a time that I ever said anything nasty or critical to any of you. But what I have found out here at Letterhead that is it always seem to be the same people that don't have a nice thing to say or that point out where some else's weakness is. You guys (not EVERYONE that has posted to this thread...just some) have a way of causing conflict here. Just remember, don't criticize me until you have walked in my shoes."
Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
ps.Bob, I did check Corel but I was looking for something specific. I do have another employee that was working on drawing something up but he wasn't capturing the look that I wanted.
[ June 07, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I'm sorry for being so snotty Laura. Please accept my apology. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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What you effectively posted here was a request for access to free artwork. Not one mention or offer of willingness to pay for that material.
Point blank.
If you feel that the "free clip art" websites(which, like the thousands of other "free" websites that are ad supported and use their free offers to entice people buy products) are unable to fulfill you needs, I think everyone here honestly has stated that the work will involve cost to you, not based on any limitations, but on the method you chose to produce the artwork with...cut vinyl.
I'm a firm believer that everyone can be taught basic illustration skills, be it cartooning, line art, pencil drawing, etcetera. If you feel that anyone here attacked you personally for you what you yourself define as a "limitation", I would suggest you examine that aspect of your abilities and do what you feel is necessary to improve on those aspects.
Your choice... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Laura, I am not ashamed nor am I sorry for the words I typed. I meant no disrespect at all, If we would have been at a live meet I would have said the same thing person to person. It IS nice to have free clip art from time to time and it is understanding that we all get projects that fall out of our limitations. but it is also good to realize these limitations and either accept them or over come them.
Also it is a major convenience to use clip art instead of the laboring job of drawing from scratch, but to spend ( which seemed to be a lot ) time looking for a free site sifting through numerous free sites only to find out they are not free, then get all mad about it?
Come onnnn!
if I'm drawing by hand or searching through web sites I will be paid for it, I will pay for it and charge for it as well.
the lesson here is that NOTHING is free! you will always pay somehow.
[ June 07, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm sorry that you chose to recieve my comments in a negative light and as a criticism towards you. The truth is though, that what I commented about does still boggle my mind about our business.
I expressed some thoughts that you took personally and perhaps view differently than I. I'm not at all ashamed of my thoughts, but regret that you took them as an attack.
That was not my intention. Let me clarify.
Laura, I do walk in your shoes in this situation. I'm asked to design stuff that is just not easy, and customers don't appreciate all that entails. Sticking in free clip art and calling it a day is not the answer to gaining their respect for what we do, nor for raising the level of our profession in general.
However one chooses to accomplish the task of creating graphics, I would only hope that they (that goes for you, me and anyone else in our biz) would put forth their best efforts, be valued for the skill, and charge well for the results.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I certainly hope you don't think I should be ashamed of MYSELF.
I don't throw stones about anyone not being able to create an illustration themselves. That's what clip art, and/or subcontracting is all about. But don't be so naive as to think that you should be able to procure a given component of a viable paying job, at no cost. It's all part of that job. Just like the cleaners, vinyls, paint and/or transfer tape.
And don't expect a lot of sympathy from the residents of this community. For what it's worth, when you're asking for free ANYTHING, outside of advice or criticism, you're asking for trouble.
And maybe I'm wrong, but are you asking for a source for FREE clipart, at a support site that you're not even supporting? You're listed as a visitor, and not a resident.
Now who should be ashamed of themselves?
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Jill apologizes? For the life of me Jill, what did you say that was so wrong. It does take character to apologize for doing wrong, when are you going to Laura? No ill intent on anyones part from what I see.
Like Bob said, this is the way we would talk if in person, nothing mean meant by any of it.
Everybody likes free, but when I finally see the result of my chasing something for nothing, I get ticked at myself for falling for it. Usually ends with " I should have known better".
I hope you get the clipart and some more money for doing so. As a sign professional I'm on your side. Help your fellow sign people by training your customers better.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
When i first visited this board,(can't remember if it was on the bullboard or the chat room) I made the mistake of directing someone to a newsgroup where they could get Freeware/shareware/copyrighted fonts by just asking for a specific font. If I remember correctly it was Dan Coplen who "educated" me on the error of my ways. I was, by my actions, reaching into the pockets of the designers and companies who produced those fonts. Commercial clip art was also discussed. It had just never occurred to me to think in those terms. A friend had told me years ago of the sites involved, and I just went for it. No more and not since. If we do not have a font in our paid for software or collections, we hunt it down and buy it. The same goes for Clip art, photo's etc. What we cant find to fit our customers needs is drawn/produced in house. The customer is billed accordingly. No protected freebies for us or the customer. We just bought three collections from Mike Jackson. They will not be copied, distributed or used anywhere but at our shop. Dan Coplen gave me a good lesson in integrity. I have had the opportunity to pass that lesson on in the shop. Do it yourself, buy it, or have someone else do it.... Then bill the customer for it...If the quoted price of the job is so low that this is not possible...Who's error is that.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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In another post I talked about something called "a checkup from the neck up." This post is a good example of what I am talking about.
At most early Letterhead meets, it was comman to see a sign posted asking us to please leave all our guns and egos at the door before entering. It's still a good idea.
Letterheads and Pinheads was born out of the belief that sharing knowledge was a good thing. There was never any cost involved in sharing this knowledge. Veterns worked along with beginners. In the process, this exchange of secrets created a fire that continues to burn 30 years later. That's the true magic of the movement.
With that in mind, we have to look at a few of the posts above. I see a few egos showing. Sharing any copywritten material is not approved of, yet I remember a time the copying machine ran nonstop at meets. Many of us learned new alphabets, scrolls and technigues from the copies we took home from meets. How young and innocent we were back then.
Point 2. Nobody should ever be critisized for not being a Resident here. The knowledge gained from reading this BB is free, just like live meets. Those that choose to be Residents get a bunch of perks in exchange for their 50 bucks. It's the same at most live meets. Your admission helps cover the costs involved in the meet. This includes food, doorprizes and other goodies. As far as I know, the knowledge exchanged is still free.
It's no secret that some of you resent today's new signmakers. I understand that feeling. At one time, it took years of learning and practise to become a skilled sign mechanic. We were a special breed and proud of it. Today's attitute of fast buck sign business has robbed some of that pride and appreciation we once received doing something very few could.
In the beginning, I learned by copying other's work. It wasn't uncomman to see Steve out in a cornfield taking a photo of a sign or tracing a tuck door when nobody was looking. I'd make patterns and practise with them. We bought everybook we could find in ST Magazine and subscribed to SignCraft as soon as we heard about it. My first signs were awful by today's standards. Many were painted for free or a box of beer. Not smart financially, but I had a dream of making a living from a signbox and I was doing something to get closer to my dream.
What we need to do here is teach new Letterheads how to fish. Catching that fish for them will only result in feeding them for a day. Teach them how to fish and they'll soon learn to feed themselves.
Laura asked a simple question here. If you were offended, why not just remain silent? Why all the sarcasm? How long does one have to be reminded of something they said or done in the past. Unproductive critism, especially in a public forum like letterville, does little to promote the ideals of sharing we all profess to embrace.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Go to Google Search CLICK images type in search box jazz band multiple pictuers to choose from.Some Line Art Double click the image(thumbnail) Print TRACE in black outlines on tracing paper (fix to your specs) Scan
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Somehow, I missed this part when I initially read your post:
quote:I just got another bus to do and it has been requested to do a jazz theme. I am looking for musicians that preferrably have suit jackets on and are playing their instruments...preferrably a clarinet, sax, bass, drum, and trumpet.
If I can't find the musicians then I would like to at least find some realistic instruments.
I can sympathize with you on searching the FREE clipart websites. Been there, done that. Several years back, free WAS free, with little hassel. But no more! The last time I went on one of these journey's, I too, wanted to pull my hair out...
I'm not gifted, in the sense that I can simply pull images from my head. I may however, know what I want, I just need something to look at, to carry it through to the end product.
To quote my partner, who has since past away:
quote:"There's nothing new under the sun, it's all a matter of how you re-arrange it."
We, didn't own a computer until maybe 5 years ago, so you can imagine, all images and graphics were done by hand, using an overhead projector, etc. I still haven't purchased clipart and seldom work with the crap that came with our design software. Clipart, has come a long way and looks better now, than then. I'm seriously considering purchasing something, maybe VectorArt - Mega Collection...
Not sure if you are doing digital prints or straight up vinyl graphics. (?) Though, you did say clipart, which I find is usually in black and white. Will silhouettes work for your application?
In the mean time, try doing a google search for musicians and musical instruments, and click on images. This will bring all sorts of ideas, though it still entails 'research' time. If you find images you like, you can copy them to file, print, scan and vector.
As far as copywrite is concerned, I believe you need to 're-arrange' things at least 20%. When I use this method, normally I pull from several different 'sources' and combine them to achieve the end product.
Also, I page through every magazine, junk mail, etc., that crosses my desk, simply to get ideas for future applications. When I see something I like, I tear the page out and file it as 'reference material.' When I need an idea, I pull the file and have at it. I have one entire file drawer designated for this.
Another source of information I have used is a 'greeting card' application that came with my computer software. Still, I have to vectorize, 're-arrange,' etc...
Hope this helps.
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Thank you Steve. As usual they missed my first line and ran with the rest. I try never to critcize but I do gripe from time to time about the lack of integrity, scrupels, and ethics that I run into everyday. I was griping about websites that lure you in with lies.
Irish, I am with you on copyrighted material. I have bought all 4 of Mike Jackson's software and absolutely will not let anyone beg, borrow, or steal it from from me to try to steal from Mike. If I need a really neat font that is not readily available on non-copyrighted software, I'll go buy it.
It just that some here blew this out of portion. They saw FREE and their hackles went up. That is the one thing that really bothers me about some here. I have seen them go into a feeding frenzy and want to eat someone up just for asking for help (free) with a design. I know of some that have been so attacked that they have been reduced to tears and swore never to come back because of the bullying that goes on here by some.
I may not be a true sign painter but I can do things in PhotoShop that most didn't even realized could be done. People have asked for help in PhotoShop and I haven't jumped down their throats because they want their design to be better and they are asking for free help.
Copyrighted material is to be respected and free isn't always free....but sometimes it is.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Laura, let's see if I have this right. You can't draw or paint? Why? Are you blind? Are your fingers broken? None of us were born with the ability to do anything - we learned. It wasn't quick or easy or "free", it ALL costs something - time, effort, frustrastion, thinking that we'd never get anywhere, but we kept at it because in the end we don't have to go begging for clipart to do a job.
Your original post didn't bother me; what I found annoying was your "you should be ashamed" comment. Oh, yeah, that shame thing. Sounds like every other carping, sanctimonious hypocrite when someone doesn't go along with whatever their idea of what's appropriate at the moment. It all comes down to this: You can't draw what you want (because you haven't learned how) and you don't want to pay for someone else to do it, so you came here to complain and got no sympathy - and for this, you tell US that WE should be ashamed??? The nerve....
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cam, I came from a VERY artistic mother and an engineering father. I have had art all my life. I was even in art and drawing classes during the summer when other kids were out playing. When I say that I don't draw or paint, its not from a lack of trying. I have now come to the realization that when I had to draw stills, that I was looking at my subject from a very analiticial viewpoint. I think that I was trying to analize where shadows, lines, etc would go. It also could be from the very serious head injury that I had. Maybe it was just poor teachers tha tdidn't know how to teach me. I don't know. I just know that I can't even draw a rectangle without it looking like a trapazoid. All though I must say that there was someone at Mapezza last Feb that showed me something about drawing and it was like a light bulb going off. Since then I have decided that when I get some time, I am going to go get a coloring book and try to draw what I see the way this guy told me to look at it.
I also know that some people are born with this talent and others have to work at it. My oldest daughter is a fabulous artist but yet spent very little time drawing while growing up. But I also know that she a great art teacher in high school.
This is one of the reason that I have hired a designer that has his degree in fine art. If I need something drawn up, I just tell him what I want and in a few minute he has it on paper...except for the graphics that I want for this bus. He just couldn't seee what I was seeing in my head. I wanted a bunch of clipart that I could arrange and re-arrange and then give it to him to draw.
Cam, I am glad that my orginial post didn't bother you. I did go back and re-read my following post. I made this statement
"You guys (not EVERYONE that has posted to this thread...just some) have a way of causing conflict here."
I see that the part about being ashamed was made to everyone and that wasn't my intention. I have since changed "to some" and apologize to those that it didn't apply to and took offense.
Cam, I don't remember much about your posts but what little I do remember, I don't see you as a person that attacks. If someone shows a little weakness there are those that come out of the woodwork to point a finger and tell them what a lowly and awful person they are. Its to those people that I say again "you should be ashamed."
[ June 07, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Laura, to answer the original question, no I dont think there are many free clipart sites around, at least nothing with decent quality images. I guess they've all finally realized they need to have some income and giving the stuff away wasn't the way to get it.
For your future use though, House Industries has some cool retro flavor illustrations in their Shag collection. They have lots of font families actually and usually have some cool illustrations with each family. Check 'em out at http://houseind.com/house.php
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I think you are right about not many free ones anymore. When I was in college (2000-2004)studying graphics and minoring in webpage design, there were lots of free clipart and animated gifs sites around and they had good clipart. I always figured that they made their money by the advertising that was on their pages. But as you say, I think that is a thing of the past.
Its kinda like the genealogy sites around now. Afew years ago I could find all kinds of free info and ordinary people had posted on websites. Now all I can find are sites that have taken this info, and now charge people to access it.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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May not be free but being in the business, $149.00 a year subscription will have damn near anything you could need. Not free but a cheap investment and cheaper than a year round staff artist.
I typed in "jazz musicians" and came up with jazz clipart
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Thanks Bob. I only had time to look thru the first 11 pages and didn't find what I was looking for. As I got further into the searching, I was kinda impressed with some of the black and whites. Are ones like that pretty clean or is there a lot of cleanup to do to get it ready to cut. We use so little clipart but will definitely come back to that website.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Just a heads up about "free" clip art... If you were to read the fine print about the use of the free stuff, you'll find out that most if, not all, can not be reproduced for commercial purposes. That includes Corel and Microsoft clip art.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Laura, from what you say about a "certain type" of clipart. I think what you're looking for is something photographic. This is not free but they do have a huge selection...of digital photos. www.digitalstock.com buena suerte
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Now you know how frustrated I get when I read all this crap about wanting free everything including knowledge which has taken years to come by. Experience to do the job and imagination to do something different. Its all relevant.
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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