posted
...not sure where to start, but it's about a job. This job is killing me. My soul anyway, & my patience & any passion for my work. That is a deadly combination of sacrifices I don't want to make.
I'm in a hole & not sure where to go. The client is a great guy, & I consider him to be my friend. The job is the Van wrap I posted about last week. It's 3:30 am & I am finishing it tonight. It is probably the 5th night I've worked almost all night till morning on it. I will probably finish around sunrise. I've had nearly a hundred mosquitos swarming my face for the last 4 hours & I'm sure that has contributed to my frustration. I knew several dozen hours of work prior to tonight that I was not making any money on this job to speak of. I've had hours of trouble with defective Gerber Vision material, & related failure & subsequent testing & experimentation earlier this evening that delayed my beginning this final phase of installation on this van.
So I said I need help, but I'm not sure what to ask for. I guess advice first. The real source of the problem is that I agreed to do 2 vans. I took a few days off this project since I posted about it last week to catch up on other stuff. I met with the client to discuss a revised completion date based on the unexpected amount of time I'm spending on it. I told him that I had bid too low for the amount of time it turned out to take, but also mentioned that I had every intention of following through with the second one to keep my word.
The problem is that I know now I will not do that van. I can't. I would be borderline suicidal if I take that on & I'm not joking. I tend to carry a lot of stress around, & some aspects of the workload I take on are to blame, but other tasks in this business are part of what keeps me sane. If I take on another van, it will consume me for over a week solid, maybe almost 2.
My remodeling project is also both a source of stress & an enjoyable creative outlet, but I created turmoil out of the normal orderliness I had. once I began moving in the expansion, it went from a fun weekend project that I would start & stop as needed, into being a project in urgent need of completion to reclaim the level of organization that will allow me to work efficiently at a level of productivity that I have become acustomed to, & that my workload depends on.
I could just tell my client that I can't do the other van because I will lose money at the $3200 price I quoted him. That is not something I would ever want to do,but there is another factor that makes that an even more difficult thought. My client operates his Maui business from Arizona. He travels here a lot, but lives there, & when he decided to pick up a few used 15 passanger vans, he found them in Arizona. He also found someone who told him they could do his vehicle wraps for $3200 each. So I asked him to let me do them & so he shipped them over instead of getting them wrapped over here.
So that explains my predicament. I always seem to have plenty of work, & I am usually pretty good at getting prices I am happy with, so if I dump another 100+ hours into this van, thats probably another $5000.00 I won't be making on something else, so I've considered giving the $3200 dep. back to the client & apologizing for flaking out on his second van. Then of course the first van would have been free, & I'm not to keen on that idea, but at least I could get on with my life & put this nightmare behind me. I've also thought that if I was willing to spend that much money to deal with this, & could even pay airfair for a letterhead to take over this job. There is one guy on this island that I might be able to find who offers vehicle wraps. His brother has large format equipment in Seattle & he ships it in to do vehicles. I don't know if he's done much in Maui yet, but I saw his own van & he can do it.
Somehow I want out of this opressive trapped feeling i've gotten myself into & I don't know what to do. I did a good job on this first van & I am allowed to put some good size logos of my own on it. I don't really want more vehicle wraps, but I'm sure it would be good exposure far any kind of sign... that is, unless the owner of the van becomes dissatisfied with my company.
WTF I'm at a loss...
well i gotta go back out in the mosquitos now 7 hope I don't start throwing my tools.
posted
Doug...The only advice I can give is this....
Complete the job that you agreed to do. It may be painful and depressing but your reputation is at stake here.
The second van will go faster, I am sure.
Several years ago I contracted to do 100 53' trailers for my best client. I contacted 2 local signmakers to help me with the project and the very first day we managed to ALMOST finish 3 trailers between us. And that took from 9am till about 10 pm. Talks about feeling frustrated!! But as the project continued, it got to the point where one person could pump out a finished job in about 4.5 hrs. In the long run, the job became extremely profitable, albeit mind numbing with the repetitiveness.
Keep at it Doug...You'll thank yourself in the end and your pricing on future work like this will be a lot more realistic.
As I mentioned before, I'd like to get into that type of work but, after hearing of your situation, I wouldn't even try it without witnessing/assisting with one to learn the ropes first.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Hang in there buddy! Try to finish what you said you would do. They do get easier second time around. I'm just guessing, but part of the time and frustration is having to register and apply many paneled edge prints.
If you're thinking of giving back the $3200 deposit, and not doing the second one, why are you even finishing the first one?
Maybe you could get alittle time to regroup before you do the next one. Look into getting some large format prints done for the second one, probably $1000-1500, and that leaves plenty left for you to hire someone to wrap it.
The job gets done, and its not a total loss to you. You can make money on these! Maybe not this time, but what you take away from it will have you better prepared when your client ships in the next dozen vans
Stand up and fight brother! You're one of the good guys! Act like it!
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Find a solvent printer and get them solvent printed. Then tell him thats what you are going to do. Them bigger sheets will go much faster.
Solvent prints is how they do em there. And $3200 bux is a little low for a 15 passenger van considering the local guys get $3200 or more for a mini van size.
Did he really get a 3200 bux quote? hmmmm From who? maybe you can get that guy to print them for you.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
thanks for the encouragement guys. Yeah, I'll try not to act like such a loser too often This things kickin my but. Oh well, its daybreak... rainy, but I got eaves that are keeping me dry, the skeeters are finally outta the picture, & only 2 more small panels to go, plus one more line of reflective lettering on this first one.
I'm glad to hear that $32oo seems low to someone else. I realize that cheaper material costs from other technology, cheaper labor from shop owners that don't have to do it themselves, not to mention faster install from larger prints (& from experience) all contribute to making it a better job opportunity for someone else. (& a worse one for me ) I did get quotes on scotchprints & would have paid $2000 per van just for the prints.
I do want to see that the job gets done... I just don't want to do it myself at this point. I will see if the guy here on Maui who advertises vehicle wraps wants to do it. If he offers it for $4,000, I'd pay the difference just to keep things rolling at the shop instead of lettingggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
whoa, hahahaha I actually fell asleep at the keyboard. I'll leave my g's for laughs (if I'd have dozed off on the Z key you'd never have believed it)
beter go finish that thing so i can get some sleep
just edited my g's to get the screen back to fitting the monitor... left them in because it's a reminder to myself of why my wife told me not to drive home after those all-nighter installs (I had to laugh as I retraced the steps of how long my unconscious trigger finger was snoring on the job.. I think the UBB even abreviated how many g's there really are)
[ May 30, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Not sure if this helps, Doug, but I just resolved a similar situation here...
I'd gotten myself in the position to go in over my head on a large dimensional sign last fall. With advisement from some of the folks here in Letterville, I found that the HDU, once carved, would not hold up well and was likely to split if it was struck hard enough. To get through the job would involve a second HDU sheet, metal framework and a lot more attention to structural integrity. After spending hours with a Dremel on it, and coming to the conclusion that I would be spending an eternity using it, jobbing out router work became the best solution. It's far different than anything I've done before, and although ambitious at first to tackle this particular project, the reality of what I've set myself up for eventually sunk in. In all honesty, I put this one on the back burner until a couple of weeks ago and finally found the way to present the situation to the customer, but not before coming to the same decision you're looking at.
How much do you want to spend or lose to keep your "reputation"?
In my case, I invited the customer to sit down and re-evaluate the costs and apologize for the situation. I explained that I could complete the sign, what the material and subcontract costs will be to do it properly, and even offered to restart the job using different materials that I was more experienced with.
The customer stated that he appreciated, first and foremost, that I had given him an apology and was willing to keep to my word to complete the sign. After that, we worked out a solution that we both are happy with. He is willing to cover the cost of th additional materials and I'm covering the subcontract work.
There's more than one kind of reputation out there in business. You can be known for being "professional", "prompt", "talented", "honest" or any number of definitions. I guess the real question is...which reputation do you value the most?
Figure that one out, and what it's worth to YOU...the rest is money and details.
Be cool.... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I just left you a voicemail and dropped you an e-mail...hope the suggestions will help.
gggg-go home and get some sleep!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Go ahead, throw in the towel and quit. You've only got the rest of your life to hate yourself and that's what will happen if you give up. Hang in there and see it thru my friend. Good luck
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Doug, you can contact Gergory Inc for some good quotes, all you need is the file on CD or you can email it to them, see what they charge, their number is 1.800.835.2221
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I know how frustrating it can be. Back in the 70s in Denver I had to do 26 20' straight reefer trucks...all polished aluminum, in the middle of the summer with more lettering than I have ever done before or since on a truck.
Touch the truck on the sunny side and the hair would stick to the truck.
I even considered skipping out and moving to Australia...That still sounds like a good move sometimes.
I sure was happy to pull the last stroke on the last letter.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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1.) You need help...from a friend. I don't recall seeing any suggestions above about getting a buddy who will assist you in the application. Most friends would help for free just cause they would want to help you out of a bind. I know I've called on my brother before to give me a hand. I've paid him, but he'd do it for free.
Let's face it...the vinyl application is not rocket science...yeah, it takes a little dexterity but you can convey that to any buddy with little problem, and he can help you hang, position and squeegee....or fill up bottles of app fluid or strip and mask parts...anything will help you out.
And the big bonus is this - just having somebody there to help and take the edge (no pun) off your incessant worrying about this project will be an immense psychological aid to you. And before you know it, you're done and it will not have seemed like you had the burdens of the world on your shoulders alone.
2.) If you're a praying man...there is abundant peace to be had in times of stress and worry by praying for peace, guidance, and a successful conclusion through this ordeal. You strike me as a very independent person, but it is not a sign of failure to admit you cannot do everything, all the time on your own. Talk to the man upstairs...he's always got an ear open....Read the book of Job. Now there's a guy who was really put to the test. His faith brought him through even though he too, thought he couldn't make it. The difference is he had someone other than himself to cast his burdens upon.
You can do it, I know you can. Personally, I'd finish out the job. Make this a VERY positive learning experience in that you know you will either never take that type of work on again...or will get assistance, charge more, etc.
But you can definately tell yourself that you weren't afraid to try something new, gave it your best shot, and made it through - - mosquito bites and all.
Good luck my friend. Keep us posted.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Hey Doug, Nothing like doling free advice here butmost of us get ourselves into a "new learning curve" now and then. I know you said you were a very detailed type of person about laying down vinyl etc.,,, and sometimes that means getting in your own way. I am not saying to get sloppy but having worked in a commercial environment sometimes you goota look at the bigger picture and sometimes things are "good enough". You should have a genuine "heart to heart" with customer (without too many details) and try to modify your estimate and let it fall where it may. Lick your wounds and move on! ......and by ALL Means get to a Letterheads meet!
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Doug, It seems that there would be someone capable of applying the wrap that would jump at the idea of a two week trip to the island with the first part doing the job. If I knew how to do it, I'd raise my hand real quickly.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd print them for you myself but shipping them from Ontario to Maui would probably cost more than the prints. I'd love to come to Hawaii again. Haven't been there since I was 12 years old but work load won't permit. I've been in these binds before - working all night - and all you can think about is giving up, but you can't... you have to stick with it. But taking a break to re-focus wouldn't hurt. Most clients understand if you tell them their job is going to take a little longer than initially anticipated.
posted
hey guys, just checking in briefly & I gotta say it feels great to have spilt my guts here & recieved so much advice & encouragement. After 2 two-hour naps, I'm up brewing my sunday morning coffee & about to head out to a memorial day BBQ jam session to break out my drum kit kick some but myself. A little sleep & not looking at that first van anymore goes a long way twards brightening my horizons, a little fun & music should erase it completely. (except the redflag for wraps that I'll never lose & a little more pricing awareness)
Rick, that travelling letterhead savior is kinda what first got me thinking of posting my troubles. I made a little headway trying to locate a moonlighting wrap-dude here on Maui that has a nice Van, but not in the phone book.
A huge amount of time was spent fiddling with the files in a manner that was probably penny-wise & pound-foolish in retrospect. I didn't want to print an excess of material that would be wasted, but the time I spent calculating what part of the image to print below the windows, what part on window film... & what little parts before, between & after the doors & windows... probably cost me more in time then I saved in material costs.
I was thinking that all that work being done would help a lot on the second van (which of course it would) but I'm also thinking if larger panels are generally considered the "right way" then maybe it will result in enough time saved on the install, as well as allowing me to "buy" my way out of the printing & prepping time making more time for staying on top of my other committments. So, even though all that file paneling calculations time would no longer represent a savings on round two... I am most definantly open to accepting proposals for outsourcing the printing, on something comparable to the "Comply" control-tac & 3M Ad-Vision that Gregory quoted on. They wanted $4000.00 for 2 vans (that included $250 for FedEx charges) I still think that sounds like too much if those large format machines are supposed to be so much lower in actual material costs... but I know the equasion that makes a business money factors in a lot more then print material costs. If anyone here offers high quality, outdoor durable 3M material at a better price, please let me know if you are interested. I did negotiate a little breathing room between the first & second vans.
posted
Doug, I've had quite a few Scotchprint jobs printed by Fine Arts Signs in Stone Mountain, Ga. Call Mark or Scott at 770-469-5587. They can probably give you some installation tips as well (they're VERY fast) or maybe they'll want to take you up on the vacation idea. Good luck.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Hi Doug, there are some top replies there. "Been there, done that" is hardly sympathy, nor advice, but as you get older,it (these kinds of misquotes) happen far more infrequently!
Your reputation is the main thing, not how much you aren't making. One job I did a few years back I recalculated I got $4.50 per hour for 140 hours work, (after subtracting materials) based on a stuff up in the original quote.
You can't wallow in misery over what's lost, but you can consider it 'very valuable' experience which may even repay you tenfold in the future.
As Rapid says, don't be afraid to swallow some pride & communicate with the customer. Honesty pays too!
Enjoy the sleep- you'll need it.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Doug, Sleep is imperative, see if timelines can be adjusted and an extra set of hands is a must. I just finished my first partial wrap. We just did big graphics on both sides of a small bus. I knew the panels were going to be 4' x 14' and it scared the pajabbers out of me. I knew what it was like to do a 5' x 8' with translucent and one one mistake and you have to start over. Talk about nervous.
Well the Avery ez vinyl was a dream to work with. It was very forgiving, re-positionable, and very stretchable. But it was still 4 x 14. With two people it went up fair easy. It was the trimming out and the fine detail stuff of the installing that slower us down. And I have since found out that our first bus was probably one of the hardest bus to do with. Two of the three windows on one side were differnet sizes and stuck out. The other side had three different size windows and a wheelchair door. We got it done eventually but not in our timeline. I would love to do another because I know that we could get it done quicker.
Hang in there. I would love to come help you. I really love doing wraps.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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you came to the right place and it sounds as though there are some solutions on both ends of the "to do or not to do"! This site saves me so much time sometimes! (and then again, I never regret the time I used to put into reading and writing too.). I am quite confident of Gregory and there may be others that do great work too. That sounds like a winner and everyone will be satisfied. You are a high achiever and it looks like you don't want to turn back now, just doesn't seem like you would. But, if you do, that's okay too, as there is always a back door to everything, I believe! Good luck, don't forget your yoga breathing! Let us know how it turns out when you come down!
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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) I did get quotes on scotchprints & would have paid $2000 per van just for the prints.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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