posted
Done some work for a fella on his motorcycle trailer. He has since contacted me and wants me to build him a sign for a Bar he frequents. The owner of the Bar wants the sign to have a "Harley" theme or look to it.
He is wanting the Harley Davidson Bar and Shield with the name of his establishment in place of the Harley Davidson stuff...
Basically he wants the bar to say "Fillsdale" And above that on the shield "Bar" and below on the shield to say "Grill"
Also he wants his phone # and "open 7 day's" or something that denotes the fact that he is open 7 day's a week.
the sign is limited to a 4 x 6 either MDO or Allumacore basically a 1/2 inch sheet of something and it will hang from an existing pole.
It is to be 6' length and 4 ' tall....
He really wants vinyl, but I am at liberty to make any adjustments..
This place is far out in the country, and I am thinking of using some reflective on it so that is can be seen at night, Electrifying this sign is not an option, so lights will not be an option either.
Color is left completely to me...
I am afraid I might be treading lightly on Copyright with this, but since he only wants the bar and shield, I really do not know...
And I was just curious if anyone here has any ideas for design, I am always open for suggestion...
I can afford to spend about $250 to $300 on material and still make a good profit on this one..
I may reach a little further into the finished product than the actual cost of this sign, don't get me wrong, I am going to make a good profit, but I am also willing to make a little less on this one for business reasons...
Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated
-------------------- Leonard Sappington lenopam@verizon.net Posts: 123 | From: Clinton, Indiana | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Copyrights are a funny issue. I have a friend that has a resturant/bar. He had the same idea replacing the bbq pit for the harley stuff, then had a local t-shirt screenprinter do the logo and print shirts. The screenprinter is very big, going to shows from miami to NY city. They are doing the national volleyball trials in philly? next month. Anyway, they had no problem duplicating the harley logo!! Just FYI.
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think you are right to consider the copyright. I would tel them that it is not legal, but if they decide to do it anyway, they can take that chance. I would use original colors & not be too concerned with taking the exact shape & proportions from Harley. Do the same letter distortion in the shield & you will convey the right idea. Even with an altered shape, new colors & deferent copy... I think it does walk the line. (How far, & on which side of the "line" is directly proportional the price a of lawyer)
As for material, I'm thinking the rectangular panel would be 2 pieces sandwiching the shield. Shield could be 1/2" & both rectangles could be 3/4" MDO for extra strength... or if posts are closer then the 6', then sandwiching the posts could allow building up the shield to the thickness of the posts could add some nice dimension to it, if thats in the budget.
*edit* by "original colors" I meant original to your client instead of copying. I don't think that came across correctly above. also I was trying to say don't match the shape exactly. (an ounce of prevention...) BTW I was also asked to do this exact thing for a builder, but with just shirts & decals & cards... I didn't worry too much. If I had to do a large sign though, I would consider it possible that HD would want it down.
[ May 20, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
I dunno if this qualifies as a copyright violation or not. I think it sits dangerously on the fence. It does suggest the Harley logo, but may be sufficently altered enough to be legal. As Doug mentioned, make sure the customer understands the risks in doing something this close to a registered logo.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
wow, RAY !!! AWESOME layout !!! WHO, in their right mind, would go around a crowded biker bar to discuss copyright infringements ???? LOL very, very nice layout !!
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 817 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Ray, that was actually what I had in mind...
I have a question for all you folks... I am sort of new to the Hanging Sign concept. I have never hung a sign of this size. What is the best way , cosmetical and functional to atach such a chain to MDO ?
I think I will go with Stainless Chain, since I really could not find the chrome, and it would probably push the envelope of budget to use chrome.
Do they make such an attachment ?
Everything else I have hung has had a solid wrap frame, and attaching chain would not be a problem...
-------------------- Leonard Sappington lenopam@verizon.net Posts: 123 | From: Clinton, Indiana | Registered: Mar 2004
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I'd drill holes where needed in the MDO and glue washers on each side with Gorilla glue prior to painting the backround. This will prevent the sign from chipping or wearing out from the friction created when it swings in the breeze.
If the swinging is a concern, a turnbuckle and a couple of eyelets attaced from the side of the sign to the bulding should take care of that issue. Not pretty, but functional.
Just for giggles, you could use any kind of link chain. primer it, and for about 12 bucks in materials, Duplicolor makes a 2 part pray paint that would look cool. It is an annodized paint that gives a chrome look and is available in 5 colors. It's at Wal-Mart in the automotive section.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
15 years ago I did a sign for a the Hershey Chronicle in Hershey, PA The sign was a rectangle, painted brown, with cream letters. A month later they got a letter from Hershey Chocolate, they had to take the sign down and change the colors. Depends on who sees the sign. Doing a Harley look a like sign in York, PA would be asking for trouble. In another remote location, it might not be.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I know it's a typo Ray...But I use a lot of that "Pray Paint" too!!!
I pray that it doesn't run, I pray that a fly doesn't do the backstroke in it, I pray that a sandstorm doesn't turn the job into sandpaper, I pray that there aren't any fisheyes in it, I pray that it dries overnight so I can continue with the job in the morning!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
About the hanging/attachment system; instead of washers, is it be feasable to consider a half a grommet, ya know, the side with the flange? This inserted into the hole could possibly prevent chafing and ovaling out the hole... jus' brainstorming...
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Leonard, I have just the thing for hanging this sign. E-mail me.
I could be entirely off on this, but I can't imagine why Harley would have a problem with this. One, it doesn't say Harley Davidson, and two, Harley spends millions in advertising to slap that hideous bar and shield logo all over the place, and here is some goofball who's going to pay to do it himself, yet he]s not doing it to sell any Harley-badged merchandise. Harley sells a corporate-sponsored (and utterly conformist) "lifestyle" based on their tractor-like obsolete motorcycles and a sickening plethora of Harley-badged merchandise, and they count on people like Leonard's client to promote their version of the biker mystique.
This from a Triumph owner who never misses a chance to tweak Harley worshippers.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob, that Norton is still on my wish list. Rice burners and two-wheeled manure spreaders are not.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Nuthin vibrates like a Triumph. I am also so sick of the "Harley Culture" I could hurl. Nuthing against anybody's bike, but I think if ya don't own one, you shouldn't plaster their logo across your chest, your old lady's chest, your kids' chests, your front license plate, your back bumper, and the back window of your F-150. And all these yuppies out there in tennis shoes and shorts riding their hogs on weekends. When I see some numb-nuts kid in similar attire on a riceburner, doing wheelies when he pulls out from a traffic light, I cringe too. If you are gonna ride, be safe. My niece married a Davidson, I used to kid her about naming one of her sons Harley. Sorry for the rant....I feel the same way about "Dale Sr." fans who make the same fashion/vehicle statement. Now everybody will hate me! Waaa! But at least they keep us in the vynull & pinstriping business, huh. Nice design, Rabid. Love...Jill PS Actually, I hate wearing anything that has a logo!
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
copyright infringement is a weird thing, I just finished a t-shirt design that had a takeoff of the "OCC" sword. Ironically it was for a COPYWRIGHT LAWYER- according to his professional insight, his design was considered parody- not trying to represent the real thing. It made no reference to "OCC", the art was redrawn and modified, it merely resembled the motorcycle "look". Same could be said for your "Harley" knockoff- if it said Harley Davidson, or you were making motorcycles called "Harvey Davidsons" trying to pass them off to unsuspecting customers, You would have PROBLEMS!
I have used that shield and bar type design for other stuff- as parody only!
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I would try to feel out the budget for this project. If dollars allowed, I would glue two sheets of 1" HDU together with a groove to accept the chain all the way through and sandblast and carve as much as you can. WOW !!! that would look sooooooooo COOL !!!
(HONDA Goldwinger)
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 817 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I would hang the sign with as few links in the chain as possible (one is normally a good idea) and not use a side chain. The reason.....putting a side chain on a free swinging sign creates a stress point. The sign wants to swing freely absorbing the energy of the wind. The chain cauaes the sign to fight the wind energy and therefore causes stress at the point where the chain is affixed. This will, more than likely, lead to damage at that point and will pull itself away. By using only one link at both attachment points at the top of the sign....the sign can swing freely with no sidewared motion. One link may not look so appealing but it will help make the sign longer lasting.
-------------------- Brian O'Prey Brian O'Prey, Artist and Designer 5 Old Movilla Road, Newtownards County Down Northern Ireland BT23 8HH Tel. 028 9181 3517 email-brianlionzion@hotmail.com Posts: 91 | From: Newtownards, County Down, Ireland | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I was thinking the same thing, John. That would be a neat dimensional sign. I really like the idea of running the chain through the HDU. That would take away the wear and tear form swaying.
Cam, Ok, now ya got me curious. How 'bout emailing me a shot of the bracket you have in mind...just gotta know after being down to your shop. One of Scotty's?
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Drew this up real quick, a poormans dimensional sign, cut out HDU, or Aluminum, letters and border, attached to welded frame, sign hangs from welded chainlink to collar on supplied post. Lower panel attatched with chain. Upper square panel painted graphics atttached to face.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Getting back to the physics of the sign, I think by attaching the lower panel by chain will give cause for damage as it will move about at a different rate to heavier main piece. I would attach the lower panel by a fixed attachment. I agree the sign looks better with a chain but am concerned about it's practicalities.
-------------------- Brian O'Prey Brian O'Prey, Artist and Designer 5 Old Movilla Road, Newtownards County Down Northern Ireland BT23 8HH Tel. 028 9181 3517 email-brianlionzion@hotmail.com Posts: 91 | From: Newtownards, County Down, Ireland | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I agree iit should all be fixed, welding the links together works, but I'm sure a brushed stainless tube attachment would look nice or twisted wrought iron, but this is a tight budget. Would make a cool sign....
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Great construction plan. Ya blew me away with that.
Leonard, you might want to print out this whole thread and take it to the customer. It would probably knock him flat to see how cool it could come out with all this info.
Upsel,upsell, upsell. Worst he could say is no... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Man oh Man.... Well, it is too late for some of the ideas that are flying at me, and really not in the budget of this place.. This place is a small little bar in the middle of nowhere. Right now my material cost is reaching the 1/3 mark and I really do not want to go beyond that.. But I definatly want to make the best bang for the buck. These folks have been really good customers, and I want to treat them right, and save them a little money. Not to mention they serve a Darn Good Lunch that I enjoy from time to time... I will keep you all posted as this thing comes together, and I will be sure to include photo's when all is said and done...
Again WOW ! I have learned alot just today !!!
Thanks folks
-------------------- Leonard Sappington lenopam@verizon.net Posts: 123 | From: Clinton, Indiana | Registered: Mar 2004
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Hi Folks, Ive been lurking for a few days and decided to join in. 10 Mins later everyone seems to be dis'n Harleys. Gee this is going to be interesting. I love Harleys, the look, the sound, the t-shirts and all the money people bring me to paint em! Would I fit in better if I were still just lettering trucks? Haha! Danny
posted
Technically, I think you could be in violation. McDonald's goes after anyone and everyone who uses "arches" similar to theirs in anything.
They even took a guy to court once because he opened a restaurant called, "McDonalds" without any resemblance to the fast food logo...his last name by the way, was McDonald. He was forced to change the name of his establishment.
But having said that....I think Cam is probably right....Harley probably couldn't care less unless the establishment gained local or national notoriety for something that was VERY obscene or controversial....then they might put leverage on the guy, thinking it might reflect badly on their name.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leonard, if you put "Open 7 Days", please leave off your apostrophe- the 's' on days just means plural- lots of days- & not an abbreviation, nor posession.
Very nice rendition Ray!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I just happen on your post and had some insight for you. I designed a logo for a Harley Chopper shop in St. Louis Mo. some 15 years ago. The shops name is Roadworthy Motorcycles. I thought in would be neat to use a cool cartoony eagle holding up a look a like shield with the shop name in it. We used black and red in the original design. The owner of the shop and I talked a lot about the Harley issue and desided that we had a design that was way out there on the edge of the copyright thing and went for it. I'm tell'n ya it didn't take Harleys Lawer hounds 1 year and this guy had warnings and law suits coming in faster than he could keep track. with in 6 mouths he was in court trying to explain himself for his (gross lack of respect for a registered american icon ) _KAK! The owner was kind enough to keep me out of the mess and took total responablty for the design. When it came out of the wash, Harley Alloyed him to keep the logo after he redesign it ( change the shield completely ), pay for the court cost and a small royalty fee, ( equaling the cost of a small but nice house.). My advice is number #1 check out the law, #2 Ask for a release for any responabilty on the design.( Wish sometimes doesn't keep you out of the problem.)
Hope this isn't scareing you, just thought I'd share it with you. Harley does pay alot money to keep there MONEY MAKER a HOT item. Be carful and have fun doing it.
Karman karmanart@piasanet.com
p.s. The new logo is in black and white, I believe the websight is Roadworhtymotorcycles.com
The owner may or maynot comment on the whole ugly deal. ask at your own risk. KK
posted
Come to think of it, about 10 years ago there was a bar in a town near Kissy that was called "Fat Boyz". Harley went after them BIG-TIME. They had to re-do all their signs, etc. etc. For awhile they were "Bat Boyz" but that was just stoopid. I got a job re-doing their sign/logo into "Top Dawgz" and it was my first to get into a magazine. All hand-painted! I won a t-shirt. I think the bar is now defunct. Harley DOES notice. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
This inserted into the hole could possibly prevent chafing and ovaling out the hole... jus' brainstorming... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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