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When you turn off the highway onto my road, there are 3 signs on your right for businesses located on my road. For the better part of a week I've been trying to get permission to put a sign there.
First I go to business #1 that has a sign there. After explaining to several people that I want to know who they talked to about putting the sign up there, I get a name. I look at the guy kinda funny & tell him I thought that person owned the property at the other end of the road. "Well, yeah" he tells me. I again explain to him exactly where I'm talking about and he tells me "Oh, that's the highway department."
I spend this weekend going through our state's website getting the info on signs. If anyone has ever tried to find information on PA's website, you understand the frustation level.
This morning I call PennDot, using the number on their website, and explain to the guy 3 times what I'm talking about. He tries telling me they have to be blue & white & ordered through PennDot. What? He's talking about the blue & white tourism-kinda signs that tell you "smith's bed & breakfast, 4 miles". I am not. I again explain EXACTLY where the signs are & that they are NOT the tourism signs, but are signs these businesses had made & put up so people know they're on the right road. He tells me the only signs that are legal are the tourism signs & that ALL others are illegal & removed during bi-annual inspections. (No, they aren't. I drive past there EVERYDAY. 1 sign has been up EVERYDAY for at least 8 years). Finally he tells me he'll send the info out.
At this point, I think maybe that isn't their property although I am 99% sure it is. Before they did massive road construction & moved the highway over, the exact spot where the signs are was the eastbound lane of the main highway through the county.
So, I call business #2 that has a sign up there. I explain to the employee I wanted to know how they got permission to put a sign up at the end of our road where it comes off the highway. I named the roads. She comes back & tells me the owner told her Dr. so-and-so owns that.
I call Dr. so-and-so, end up talking to his wife who really owns the property. She tries telling me there is only 1 sign there, it's for business #2 & they don't want to allow any more signs. I tell her about the other 2 signs & we discover we're not talking about the same location.
I still have a nagging feeling about the conversation with the guy at PennDot, so I call the main PennDot number & the operator gives me the same guy. I tell him I think we were on different pages when we spoke earlier & try to start the conversation over. At this point, he starts talking about on & off premise signs & rattling off the requirements "no more than 800 feet from...and at least 300 feet from..." I try to discuss this with him, because if I'm understanding what he's mumbling correctly, then the 3 signs are all outside those parameters. Instead of explaining to me what he is clearly reading word for word to me (same thing I read on their website) he starts telling me that the signs I'm asking about are illegal & removed during the inspections 2x a year. I again tell him that perhaps we aren't on the same issue here because the 1 has nice wooden posts in the ground and has been there everyday for over 8 years. (I'm thinking he's now thinking about little coroplast with step stakes) He tells me I'm wrong and ends the conversation.
2:00 on a Monday afternoon & I'm frustrated, irritable and ready for a 3-day drunk. This is gonna be a looooong week.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Unfortunately I have to fight...I mean work with DOT and the city often....If the converstation is not going well in middle of my sentance I hang up (not in the middle of theirs as you don't want them to think you hung up on them, and who would hang up on themselves, they think you got disconnected....works like a charm) and I recall and nine times out of ten I get someone different and a different answer. I would write down everything if you have not started already do it while the info is fresh, names dates and info will get you a long ways down the road, at this point I would just put up your sign (I wouldn't get carried away) nothing you would be completely devestated if they were to remove it but it doesn't sound like it is in a area that they are going to remove from as the others are there and if they call you, have your paperwork in order with trying to go through them and pay them whatever permit fee is needed, I doubt you'll ever hear from them....but Murphy's Law is definately in effect in my life. Good Luck dont let the sh!theads get you down. One more thing I've learned dealing with city employees and such...EVERYONE HAS A BOSS just keep moving up the ladder until you find someone who knows something
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chris..I am with Dan...Just put up your sign and see what happens.
As someone has posted before. "Easier to do it and ask forgiveness, than it is to ask permission in the first place".
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Chris, take photos of the signage both close and far, take their dimensions and go visit with the towns building inspector and PennDot, a picture is worth a thousand words. I once had a problem simular when I lived in Haverstraw NY and opened up Pandoras box with my photos. Teach'm all a lesson
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Buy a nice old van. Do fair paint job on it. Do an ass kickin' letering job on IT. Make some magnetic arrows with distance to your place info on them. Park appropriately. use arrows wisely. Drive that beast home late evening time, put it back in the morn. Dollar for dollar it might be the best alternative.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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When dealing with the county, DOT or whomever.. Just do it and ask forgivness later. They will not give you permission to put up a sign on public property.
They dont want extra work. They dont really care what goes on, and usually they leave signs up to the local government. The local gov won't say anything unless someone complains. They can only dictate what the regulalions say. dont ask dont tell.
As for the sign up there. The bizz owners won't tell you much. They know as most other bizzes that if one or two sign is there then no one will say anything. If it becomes a sign garden then the locals officials will remove them. So, they won't say anything to jeapardize their sign locations. ITs a potential turf war and unless you play the game well you will lose. Your sign will disappear and what ever else will happen.
I've been there and done that sign game for years.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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and if you do the van idea....park it at home depot on the weekend for advertising to all of the contractors and such or buy a separate van hell buy 20 of them we're all getting rich in the sign business if you ask my customers and park them all over town for advertising.....my comedic talents are growing.....Now Doug can call me MR. C for more than one reason lol (inside joke) he'll get it when he reads this post....
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dan, comedian or not, some of your ideas lately have been pretty cool.
As far as this sign goes, if I'm hearing this right, Kissy needs to find the REAL owner of the property. I would get the address as best as I could, make a map of sorts, and go to the county planning commision, or whoever has those maps with the property parcels drawn on them. They can tell you who owns them. Then get permission to put up a sign from the property owners and take your chances with the inspectors?
Or, if the sign is intended to show customers WHERE you're located, more than advertise your abilities, then you could do the RE size signs, and it wouldn't be such a loss come what may. Why heck, they might just keep re-appearing mysteriously after they were removed. Bermuda triangle in reverse sort of thing.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kissy, If there are already other signs there I'd say just put yours up too.
As far as stirrin' up any mess? We do not have to have ANY kind of permits on regular signage right now...only for anything over 8x8 & then only on the main highways. . so I don't like to rock the boat a lot.
I don't know what all you're required to have tho' it's sounds a lot like around here . . . you might wanna consider to whom you discuss/complain to . . . or you might spark a situation like some people have, where you have to buy a permit to install even the simplest 18x24 realty sign on a stake. . . . . . . . .
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Municipal employees are experts at stonewalling and red tape. Whenever you ask one of these ribbon clerks for something you will get a "No", because they don't want to do anything. It may have been George Carlin who said he prayed for years for a bicycle until he figured out that he'd have to go steal one and pray for forgiveness later.
Ssshhhh - document the existing situation like Joey says and put up your sign at night or on Sunday. Nobody official will make a move without complaints from the competition...and you know how much red tape they will face. Also stop calling them and telling them who you are. Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here's another thought -- a buddy of mine and I were putting up a small sign and got caught by the city guy - we were told to take down the sign and Bob had to pay a $10 fine. He tried 50 times (!!!) to get city approval and it never went through. At another location we got caught again - by the same city guy and again we were told to take down the sign. We did not, but Bob did pay a $10 fine. A month or so later he got another $10 fine in the mail for not taking down the sign as he was told -- he paid the $10 and never heard from them again. 20 years later it's still there, with a couple more. What they really wanted was $20 and to be the boss - but nobody would say so. We put the first sign up and Bob paid the $20 for that one, too. A buck a year (so far) to advertise in the city ain't bad...we're all happy.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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James, the question at this point is now if this property is privately owned or part of the right-of-way the state has along their roads. That isn't information I can get from the maps unless I want to hire a surveyor to give me the exact property lines.
The first business I talked to told me that was state property, thus my call to the highway department to get permission.
If it's private property, I just need the owner's permission, not a permit. If it's the state's, I need to buy a permit from them (which is basically just pay them rent on the space & follow their rules for signage on their property.) The only inspectors I would have to deal with would be the state if I use their property.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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You might be able to get a fair idea of the property line if you can see the plats, which may be available at the county court house or even online. Around here, the roads will have a right of way, for example 150', which will be measured as 75' on each side from the centerline of the roadway.
If you can find out how wide the right of way is and measure it from the centerline without becoming road pizza, you may be able to skip some of the red tape.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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So THAT'S why you don't have a sign! I always wondered. Seriously, Kissy, don't stick up ANYTHING without a permit. It's worth the hassle to do things the right way. 16 years ago I stuck a sign out front sans permit. As you know, I live on commercial property on a state highway. By the next DAY I had a certified letter AND a fine! You've already given the alleged property owners & PennDot the heads-up with your phone calls, so follow it through till you get some valid answers. Seriously, one of those Blue & White touristy things is better than no sign at all. It will lead clients back your road to where you can put up a REAL sign by your driveway...maybe at that Pampered Pets place? Just my .02 Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Actually Jill, I got permission for the sign at the end of the driveway today. Talked to the neighbor who owns it (what a sweet old man) whose only restriction is that it not interfere with the grooming salon sign (his daughter). We discussed where I wanted to put it & he told me to come get him & we'll put it up, even suggested we move his fence.
I'm thinking the end of the road would be easier to read cause people have already slowed down to turn onto the road. By time they get to my driveway, they're already doing 60.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'd definately be taking that kind old man a six pack to share while he's helping to install that sign....congrats and glad you are done with the hunt...Mr.C
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yesterday must have been NATIONAL DOT RUN AROUND DAY. I am ready to put in a PeachTree Foam sign that is 6'x 10'.The sign is on a corner and the credit union is about 300 west. The credit union doesn't own the land that the sign is going on but got an easement and had it written into a legal description.
I want to check with everyone to make sure everyhing is legal and when I call MDOT they can't tell me where the right of way is (as the customer wants to move the sign as close to the road as (possible). I spent half of my monthly cell phone minutes calling the State MDOT office and the local inspectors office just to have them tell me that the 8th line is the edge of the RIGHT OF WAY but they don't know where the 8th line is. The local enforcers thinks its 75' from the centerline of the 5 lane road and that I need to get a surveyor out there to re-survey. Great! The sign would be half way down the road from the corner.
I have to go back to my customer and tell them all this. When I get to my customer I convince them to call the surveyor (my cell phone is dying by now)and the surveyor is able to help and tell us the RIGHT OF WAY line (8th line) is 4' from the curb. Whew!!!!!! We can move the sign closer to the road and the credit union will pay the bucks to have the legal description changed.
Oh I forgot. MDOT wants to know why I don't just buy the state book that shows the right of way for all roads in Michigan. A ask how much. Before she tells me, she mentions that it "isn't up to date."
[ May 18, 2004, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Kissy, we had a similar odd circumstance here- the building & sign permit bloke said that according to regulations, I can't have what I want, even on our own property. (because of some local bylaws written by an expert somewhere...) For years I had no sign, then one evening I snuck down and erected the one I wanted, where I wanted it... and waited in trepidation.
The next day the sign fellow phoned up, and as I mentally prepared three plausible lies & excuses, he said "I see you've got a sign up- it's nice- I'd like some quotes for work..." The previous bloke who knew what I wanted & wouldn't let me have it had been 'promoted' and never gets out to see what we now have, while his replacement approves of it (unofficially of course), and gives me work monthly, and drives past it daily.
Idiocy is the rule in this shire that you cannot even put up a sign to advertise your own business on your own property until it has been specifically zoned for that purpose. Out here, signs doesn't equal farming, so the former midget inspector used to exercise his little bit of power quite enjoyably over lots of businesses.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Christ, Kissy, you actual called PennDot?? Twice??!! I grew up in Pennsylvania, and PennDot has always been the ultimate career destination for two-bit political hacks, Mafia wannabees, your state rep's mongoloid second cousin and other assorted mouth-breathers, uncle-daddies and chronic brain deads. If a terrorist bomb killed off every PennDot employee the average state IQ would rise at least ten points. Talking to a PennDot inmate would be right up there with hammering nails into my head, only more frustrating. Glad to hear you got it squared away withou having to involve them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Chris, If nobody can or will tell you who owns the property then go to the county tax assesors office at your local courthouse and ask them. Property and it's owners are a matter of public record and I have found the people in the office are very helpful. The names, phone numbers and mailing addresses are all there. All you need to know is the nearest physical address. I hope this helps, I've had to do it many times to seek sign exceptions and it has saved me alot of time in the past.
-------------------- Glen Lemmon Visucom Art & Signs Pocatello, ID visucom@hotmail.com www.visucomsigns.com Posts: 35 | From: Pocatello, ID | Registered: Mar 2002
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you might wanna consider to whom you discuss/complain to . . . or you might spark a situation like some people have, where you have to buy a permit to install even the simplest 18x24 realty sign on a stake. . . . . . . . .![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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