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I am purchasing sign writers pricing guides and going to pass them out to our local shops. Most of them are newer shops that price their product on a 'time and material' rate. Has anyone else ever done this in their area? I don't want to come off as being a jerk - it's not like that has never happened before.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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Jerry! Hey Pal, send one over my way! By 1999 I could get 1991 prices, and Glantz gave me a new one in 2001. But I lost both of em in 2002 and have been pulling prices out of the sky ever since! Still lookin, I know they're around here SOMEWHERE. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I believe Glenn Taylor did that some time ago with Estimate and shops in his area. Gave away the program (trial version) and words of encouragement to those receiving it to truly identify their costs and charge accordingly. Long story short, hope your experience yields better long term result then Glenn’s efforts did.
Great idea and I would like to second Pat’s comments! Good on you!!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just did a job yesterday, (yes Sunday) where I decided to do the quote out of my newest (2002) pricing guide. 21" high letters... Williams Redi-Mix. Following the pricing guide I quoted him $273.50 for the letters, then estimated install at $170 to $255. The letters are going on a concrete mixing silo that is 22 feet tall on the ground. It had to be done Sunday cuz he thought of it at the last minute and will be set in place today which will put it 64 feet up, out of range for my bucket truck.
Well I cut the letters, 19' of vinyl at a cost including transfer tape of $37.16, marked up 50% to $55.74. It took 6.75 minutes to cut and 16 minutes to weed and mask at $60.00 per hour, $78.49 total.
I would feel like a thief charging him $273.45 plus install. What I ended up doing is I added $100.00 for profit on the lettering. My installation took an hour and a half @ $80.00 per hour with the bucket truck.
Bottom line. I feel I can't trust the guide much. I'm all in favor of making a profit, and I have been raising my prices, but following the pricing guide in this instance was just not right in my opinion. There have been several jobs where the pricing guide was right on the money after timing the job out and looking at my old prices vs. the guide. The guide was a little higher, average around 20% higher than what I would have charged in the past. But how do I know when to use it and when not to?
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I think individual vinyl lettering pricing is high by the book. It is probably for the person who comes into your shop and wants two numbers for the side of his race car. For your job, I would have gone to the book and figured the price by the sq/ft for the second side of lettered coroplast sign - usually 70%.
Book price for the second side $257.60 My usual charge (85% of book) $218.96 Getting paid what you are worth PRICELESS
I would have went FULL BOAT RETAIL when he called at the last minute and had to have it NOW. (Unless he is a great customer and usually doesn't take advantage of you). Lack planning on his part does not constitute a discount on your part.
[ May 17, 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Jerry VanHorn ]
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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He's not what I would call a close friend, but I know him well. I've bought concrete from him many times, and he always comes to me for his truck lettering, no bids required. I know he doesn't discount my concrete, but he doesn't take advantage either. I feel for what I did, I made a nice profit without sticking it to him.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Educating your competition is always a great move for everyone involved, especially if all parties actually want to be profitable! I would be happy to send you as many copies of our free program "ProfitWatch", which helps companies determine what a profitable hourly rate should be. You can pass these out without hitting your own pocket and they include a free demo of our EstiMate Program as well. "ProfitWatch" can also be downloaded from our website at http://www.pricingmadeeasy.com/estimate/download/index.php
Happy Pricing!
Kelly Shirley EstiMate Software Asheville, NC 888-304-3300 ext 111 kelly@pricingmadeeasy.com
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Dave, I use the pricing guide for some things but never charge 100%. On most vinyl jobs I charge 60 to 65% of what the book says. I keep up with the time and materials on most jobs and that percentage works out about right for me. My shop rate is $40/hr.
However, on sandblasted or routed jobs, I charge somewhere around 90-95% of what the guide says. But since these can get a little more complicated, I use my own pricing system for these.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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In the current climate of operating expenses, including high gas and insurance prices, anyone in the US who charges less than $60 per hour is paying their customers to work for them. The shop rate you charge is not wages and must include an acceptable profit for your company. Many in our area are charging closer to $95 and we get more. Food for thought.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have to agree with Kent on this one, your not only talking about what goes into your pocket after the sale, but what you have to put out at the end of th emonth to keep the lights on and the roof up and the insurance and all those other expenses, OVERHEAD!
Gas keeps going up and if you dont keep your costs reflecting that just like the truckers and the airlines are doing youll go broke for sure.
I have found the pricing guide is ok for most things but individual lettering is where I find it to be off a bit. Also how can you price pinstriping using the pricing guide, I havent been able to make heads or tails of that yet.
Perhaps Estimate is a better way of calculating your cost and sales pricing. Try the demo and figure it out for yourself.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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If you think the pricing guide is too high for your area use that to your advantage. By that I mean, price it our of there, SHOW the customer the price out of there and then say..."but for YOU..." or something to that affect. Hey, car salesmen do it all the time!!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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The pricing guide is just that...a GUIDE. Why do so many people seem to have the concept that you're supposed to use the price, straight from the book, as is. If the price won't fly in your area (It won't in mine) you can still use the price book to help you quote consistently. You simply calculate the price, using the book, determine what percentage of that your market will bear, and charge the same percentage next time. Write the percentage in at the top of the page.
example Metal Signs-75%....Multiply the book price by .75
[ May 18, 2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Here is a little food for thought on the hourly shop charges:
If you charge $40.00 (example) per hour, then you should be able to pay yourself 25% to 30% of the hourly rate. The rest of the money is used to run the business.
The rule of thumb is that a business owner will make 1/3 of his hourly charges...but it doesn't always work out that good.
Your top notch employee, the one you would never fire or let go for any reason should get 25% of the hourly wage. If he makes the shop $100,000 a year, he gets $25,000. That is not very good wages compared to a welder or an electrician.
The journeyman employee in the BIG sign shop around here gets around $26 per hour plus benefits. If the shop is using the 25% rule billing for his labor, then they are chargeing well over $100 per hour on his work.
We have been charging $65.00 per hour and losing ground. Our profits have dwindled alarmingly faster than forseen. We will have to either increase work flow or raise prices, or both.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about making too much profit!!! Just think of all those times when you basically gave a job away because you didn't price it high enough. Getting paid what your worth is what it's all about. Price guides are just a guide, not a bible. In our shop we figure time and materials plus a shop mark-up beyond that. We mark our signs up so that a design charge is included. It's really hard to collect a design charge in this area if you don't include it with your pricing. Our customers pay our price because it's reasonable and they are getting what they pay for. If they went to a franchise sign shop that only cranks out vinyl lettering on MDO then they are getting a really generic package and paying more than what our shop charges for a quality product. It's like buying a car, if you walk away happy and are happy with the price you pay, who really cares how much that price is?
[ May 19, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Jim & Chris hetzler ]
-------------------- Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com www.jchetzstudio.com
"We are the one that makes you look good!" Posts: 137 | From: Muscatine,Iowa,USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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oh boy where to begin first of all this is just meant to be helpful...GULP>>>>here I go, there are many people that are great craftsmen, doctors, lawyers, etc., that doesn't make them good business people and it is a "craft" of its own in many ways, I could write a book here but am not going to until I get attacked, my point is this, Most small business owners should take some classes on business or read books where they notice that they are struggling or hire people with skills that are better than their own in the areas that you are lacking. Just a side note whatever position we are hiring an employee for we should ALWAYS try to hire someone better than ourselves, that is the best use of the money that you are dedicating to that purpose, as small business owners it seems to be we often hire people with a lower skill set so that we are better at it....why? that is the worst thing we can do with our money. just something to think about back to the subject at hand. Dave Draper I really commend you, you have stayed in business gainfully for a long time and are even paying some college tuitions if I my memory serves me right, but I would encourage EVERYONE to truly figure out your hourly rate, with everything involved, if you do a search on here there are posts in regards to this and a link I believe to the signcraft worksheet that will help you do this excercise. You will be shocked! Now there is a post above about what percentage you as a business owner should be making out of X amount of dollars that you make an hour, I would challenge you to do something a little different, find that dollar amount that you are happy making and reality check here if you are in business and making less than $25 an hour why be in business? I have heard all of those things about it gives you the freedom, it keeps you artistic and that in my opinion is not the right reason to be in business I am in business to make a profit, yes I enjoy what I do, yes I like being artistic but if it is not profitable you need to find somethign you can do to be profitable. So figure out that amount that you want to make, do the worksheet and adjust your shop rates accordingly. If you get every job that you quote or most of them your prices are too low, I know I am one of the most expensive in my area and I want to be, we do the work others wont do (or can't do) additionally those are the projects we enjoy doing, look professional, talk professionally, do what you say you are going to do on time all the time for the amount you quoted, it is not that hard, this is a industry where a tremendous amount of people underpay themselves, your reward for taking the risk of owning your own business should be a healthy income, otherwise why take on the stress, the risk etc., that is enough of a rant for now but I ma sure it will grow...just think about it a bit, I know at first it is hard to raise your prices and tell your customers this is going to cost you X , just deliver it in perfect condition on time and you will have customers for life and make a profit and then hopefully someday we will all have saved something and be able to retire.....right like the King, still working but loving it.....
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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When your local mechanic works on your car he uses "the book".
It says it will take 4 hours to change your water pump. Thats what he bids. 4 hours. All teh mechanics use "the Book"
Why not signers?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I wish one of these shops, which charge 60-75- or $100 an hour and 100% or more of what the Pricing Guide lists, would move in right down the road from me here.
One of three (or more)things could happen They would quickly tire of having no work and move someplace else.(this already has happened, twice) Or they would target markets oustide this area which will pay their prices. Or we could have a "reverse" price war to see who can price the highest....and starve together. Don't worry, I won't undercut you.
Maybe together, we could change the public's perception of the value of signs. Hey, there could be other possibilities.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I bought myself the BIG desk-top model from Glantz today! It oughta be hard to lose that one! Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Webb: Maybe together, we could change the public's perception of the value of signs.
you hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!
too many shops think they are going to get all the business by pricing low. They don't, they loose money, they go out of business. This leaves the customer who patronized their shop to believe that is the 'going rate'. That customer is ruined for a long time. We, as experienced sign professionals, owe it to ourselves to give the newcomers some advice on pricing. My order of price guides should be here tomorrow. I plan on having lunch with two other shop owners. I may walk out with a back fist to the jaw, or I may get the point across. I'll let you know.
wish me luck
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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