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I have searched this topic on the website and haven't found any real in my face answers to my questions so I thought I would start a new thread.
I know there are people out there who have lots of experience painting and/ or designing and installing B. Boards but has any one ever built and erected your own. If so, HOW???
I'm not looking at anything fancy, but probably a couple of I beams with stringers across them and a facing attached to the stringers. Size would be App.10'X30' 9' off the ground. It sounds and looks real simple but its the engineering part that worries me,
For instance, How deep do the beams have to be, footing size, beam size, etc.. you know all that stuff those smart guys with fancy calculators get paid a lot of money for.
I'm not opposed to having an engineer draw it up for me but the ones I have talked to ask me why I need one engineered, because there's not much to it.
So do I need an actual engineering plan or just some good advice from you friendly folks.
Thanks Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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For a start, I would design it to fit your sheet size. Say 8 x 28 which would take 7 sheets side by side. Although 6 sheets (24') making a 8x24 is more proportional to most design layouts.
Don't know what your 'I' beam dimensions are in USA but the heavier the better. 8" should be enough. Cost factor comes in.
Cross braces should not be less than 2" RHS on something that size. Probably quite adequate, depends on what you sheet it with, but look at 4". Again cost?
Footings? "Rule of thumb" for general "windage" factor is 1/3 height into the ground. That is if your sign is 18ft tall you go 6ft deep. It depends on the soil. Softer go wider not deeper. Width of the footings is 1/2 depth usually.
One of the tricks I learned pouring concrete footings shown to me by an engineer is to pour 1/3rd in the bottom, PACK 1/3 with earth, then pour the rest. It's not in any book but it works!!! Not only do you save on concrete but the earth in the middle provides a "key" and another two lateral sufaces to stop tilting or pulling out of the ground. Think about it!
There, you got the "bushman's" way without engineers Just 30 years experience and haven't had one fall over yet
We use 8x4 x 12mm "Weathertex" which is a waterproof compounded wood panel smooth and preprimed one side.
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The FIRST thing I would do is find a place that I could put it up. Our state is terribly strict about where you can and can't put a billboard. Zoning could be your first problem. Before you go to all the trouble of building this, make sure you can legally put it up where you intend to or all the work is for nothing.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Ditto's Ms. Jane . . . . but assuming all the red-tape is in order . . . . . .
This is how we erect 8'x 20', 8 x 24's(overall 13'x 20 or 24'), or 12'x24's. (for this size you have to rent heavy equipment to set the 20' 8x8's)
I do not use telephone poles, but they can be used. This is just how I do it. You can just use my ideas as a spring board or give me some tips.
I tend to overkill on hardware, I like to asssume the thing is going to be dealing with 80 mile an hour winds EVERYDAY, lol
8'x20' billboard:
you need: ~qty.4 - 16' 6x6 treated posts
~qty. 3 14' 2x6's or 2x8's and qty 3 8' 2x's to match. (for runners)
~18 3/8" x4" lag screws
~a box of self-tappin', pan-head, sheet metal screws about 2 1/2" or 3" long
~Qty. 5 4x8x.063 or .080 baked-colour aluminum
LAYIN" OUT:
(what you do after the sign is done )
You need at post at each end and one around 6 1/2 at centers.
Use a line level to determine the depth of each post & set posts about 3 ft deep each. The line level will easily ensure they are level across the top . . . .you could stretch a string across the top and try to level 'em that way, but that is the hard way, LOL
We like to drop 'em in the ground once.
You will have 13 ft. out of the ground and 5 ft of post showing below the faces. This is acceptable around here.
We pack the posts with dirt . . . .about 1 cup at the time. I have a coupl'a peices of cold-rolled steel about 4ft long that are great for this packing procedure. I have no billboards on concrete.
We pack and level the posts front to back and side to side about 1/2 way and then start with the runners and frequently check and pack and level as we go along.
We countersink and drill holes at each end of the runner boards and lag screw to the posts. Usually the top and bottom rows then go to the middle.
You counter-sink the lags so the panels will go on smooth and the lag heads won't be makin' everything bumpy
Until recently we used 5 rows of 2x4's but then I changed to 3 rows of 2x8's. If you start from the left and go about 13 1/2 ft to the 3rd post center, then from that center your next board will be about 7 ft to the far right 4th post to make the top runner. Then you repeat from right to left with the long board then the short span at the left end. Then repeat the way you did the top from left to right for the bottom row ( which of course it is 8ft from the top to the bottom of the runners) This is for strength . . never have all your joints on one post.
Now you are ready to install your panels.
I paint/letter/apply vinyl or whatever to my panels in the shop then take 'em out and put them up. They are loaded on the truck or trailer in the order that they will be put up, usually left to right. They are installed vertically so that there are 5 panels making up the whole thing.
I use a sheet metal screws . . about 4 across the top & bottom of each panel and one at the centers. I don't use washers . . . just more stuff to rust. I paint all the hardware to discourage rust. I used to use 2 1/2" drywall screws . . you CAN screw them in but to save time you need to pre-drill and that really winds up takin' time time and they rust out perty fast eventually, lol so I made an improvement in that area and went to self-tappin'-pan-heads about 10's or 12's.
I just recently replaced 9 MDO faces that made up a 12x24. I used 6 4x12x.080 white aluminum. . . .less seams.
They want a 8x12 now, so I will use two 4x12x.080 and only have 1 seam, mounted on three 6x6 posts with three 2x6 runners.
What'd I leave out?? . . . . . . . . .
PS: Jon I agree with you about the concrete too . . . for really big stuff it would be a good idea. To date, I have had to move 2 bill boards and I'm really glad we did'nt use it. I have never had any fall or or warp either. Also, when the bush-hog rams 'em they are easier to reset. In concrete, they tend to crack or break at the ground. I have one at the edge of a loggers parking lot and they caught a post with the trailer . . if it had been in concrete, it would have snapped it off, but it just sorta pushed it over. We were able to use the truck and a chain to pull it back up and dig around it a little and repack it and we drove a coupl'a 4ft treated wedges around it. Then I wrapped that post, top, middle and towards the bottom with 2 layers of 6" reflective tape so the tired loggers will see it in the late evenings and early A.M.'s . . . . .hope it works.....
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I am curious before jumping into this I am assuming that you already have a location in mind to put this and that you have checked to see if in fact you can put this type of sign in said location, regardless of what information you get from all of us I would be surprised if your local municipality or DOT will let you put it up with out supplying engineered schematics for the permit, the company that I apprenticed at many yrs ago did only large format work and billboards and it is a very complex and highly regulated part of the sign business in my neck of the woods, so before typing out a book on the subject thta may do you no good as you may be required to have it engineered for permitting regardless. Please let me know and I will continue to add to this potentially very long topic...
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Great stuff everyone even got a great email on with loads of good ideas.
To answere some of your questions. Yes I do have a spot picked out at least for this first one. It is in our city limits and the city will allow a billboard there.
The city does not ask for an engineering plan but does require a series of inspections along the way to make sure that I am following their checklist.
I have spoken with the property owner and he is willing to do a lease with the contingent that the lease is not in effect until the permit is approved. Especially since it is the city inspection and permit dept. and ordinances seem to change on a daily basis depending on who you talk to.
Most days I know more about the code than all the inspectors put together.
Usually once the site plan is approved as long as you stick to that and remind them that they approved it, you are ok.
The size is based on #1 what the city allows #2 to try to be a little different than everyone else in town. My thought is to have it look more like a small bulletin rather than a poster board and since I will be using vinyl wraps as the media the size shouldn't matter a whole lot except a few extra steps in construction.
Thanks for all the info, I will double check tommorow with the city on a few things to make sure some of your and my concerns are answered
Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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alright now that we have a little more info, first of all make sure that you have that land use lease agreement properly written and that it is notorized when both parties sign it, and as soon as you know the dimensions let me know as I own a couple billboards that we lease out and unlike your lucky buns we have to have them engineered, have the welds inspected, and so on and so on...what a lovely world it would be for me if i didn't need permits...
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Don't know what yer going to put on it, but "think outside the square"
Plan an "add-on". That is take the shape of some element up or to the side of the rectangle using ply and some simple braces. Breaks up the hard outline.
We did one with a booze can sticking about a foot out of the top on an angle. Simple to do and really catches the eye!
posted
OK spoke with City today and got a copy of the Checklist for Permit. Well you guys are right, I do need Engineering Drawings Showing Load Calculations (Wind & Live), It does not state that they need to be by cert. engineer with stamp but I will need then none the same.
So for now I have the site and the owners permission to use the site upon approval of the permit. But my next step is the Engineering Drawings, what will be my best way to go about obtaiining these. Or is there a way, a place or a book that I can learn to figure that info myself.
Thanks Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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Get me some sizes and I will see what I have in my collection, please let me know what the restrictions are as well that they have placed on you and this project, additionally I will be surprised if they do not have some sort of "fee" for their own department or chosen engineer of the moment review the schematics anyhow in addition to any permits etc., politics
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dave, Did you know that there are steel companies who sell kits? They send you all the appropriate steel and the engineering is already done. I talked with at least two of these companies (one was in Memphis) before I built mine when I was a one man shop in Arkansas. Their ads used to be in Signs of the Times, as I recall. I ended up going cheap, using utility poles and MDO board, doing the work myself (literally, just me and my bucket truck and a piece of chain). Also, if the sign is on a state highway, there will surely be a permit to be obtained from your state DOT in addition to the city's permission. Your city official may not know this (or care). A phone call to your DOT is cheap insurance.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Is this on premise or off premise advertising? If it is off premise, Texas DOT classifies it as a billboard and regulates size and distance from other off premise billboard signs. If it is on premise and permitted by city ordinance, they usually don’t care. Call your local TxDOT office. My limited experience with them has been positive.
What substrate do you plan to use? The type and spacing of stringers you employ will be determined by your background. The manufacturer of the material, if you are using a prefinished product, will have specs that can help.
Do you have a person who can drill the piers and set the posts? What size auger does he have? If he has only a 16" bit, don’t engineer it for an 18" hole. Hole depth is more critical than hole diameter for resisting overturning under wind load. The resistance goes up with the cube of the hole depth so making the holes a little deeper generally gets better results than going up an incremental size on auger bit.
What is the required wind loading? Around here it is 30 PSF.
What materials can you secure easily for the posts? As with the hole diameter, there is no sense in designing to 8" pipe if all you can get is 6". If all you can get is smaller material, you may need an extra upright.
Maybe Roy Frisby will jump in and make some of his pre-installed post holes available for download. Be sure to order the long ones from him. Don’t settle for those wide, shallow ones he has been trying to pawn off. They’ll never pass the engineering.
Newbies to Letterville will never understand the preceding paragraph without a search.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Another thing you need to do is before digging have the underground cable guys come out and locate anything nearby. I speak from experience, it's no fun paying for a damaged telephone cable!
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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In Texas, the number to call is 1-800-DIGTESS. They will come out and locate the utilities. It is the law in Texas to call before you dig, even when using Roy's slightly used post holes.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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OK lots more replys I will take a shot at the answers at least the ones I know for sure, these may not be answered in order or by person but hopefully will get most of them answered.
On or Off Premise-it is an on premise sign withing City Limits. It is on Hwy 87 so I will call TX Dot and check on any thing they may require, I did not know I needed to check with them with signs in City Limits, but I will do it anyway just in case.
Steel Company Kits, Well I have looked but not yet found one. The only company I found sells the entire board with monopole for $18995, Ouch!! Plus the Install,permits, holes and concrete.
Size-Sign can be no larger than 300 Sq ft. So 10X30 or 12X24 or something near.
Beam or Pole Size- As far as the beams go I can pretty much get a hold of anything as we have a large steel mfg. in town. Obviously I want it to be strong but the less weight the better.
Hole size-I do have a company that will be diggin the holes and they can go up to 24" in diameter and I would make sure we call before we dig.
Substrate for sign- probably would us MDO because of price, if not MDO than Prob. Dibond.
Load Requirements- Still don't know, I have pages of requirements and ordinances and none of them state what PSF or load amounts are required, I guess I can give the city another call see if anyone can give me specifics I'll also ask about who inspects the engineered drawings.
Whew! I think that's it. I'll check in tommorow and let you know info I learn form City and TXdot.
I really appreciate all the help and all the time you guys are saving me with letting me in on your own experience.
Dave
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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Think about this.... What direction will it face, where do the prevailing winds come from, how many LBS. per sq.ft. will a square foot take before coming out of the ground in your area of the world? When I lived in Amarillo,TX the wind started at around 10-15 in the morn and went to around 35-50 afternoon evreyday. That was good days... Somedays it were around 70. couldn't keep the dust down for nuthin'. Anyway if you face the wind normally it pays to shore up with back braces. If you are perpendicular...less shoreing is needed.
My quarter dollar! CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Just 30 years experience and haven't had one fall over yet 
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. . you CAN screw them in but to save time you need to pre-drill and that really winds up takin' time time and they rust out perty fast eventually, lol so I made an improvement in that area and went to self-tappin'-pan-heads about 10's or 12's. 
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