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finally found out how this works. this internet is amazing. want to be able to share as much info. as i can. this meet has become something of it-self. I am working day and night to make changes and up-grades to meet expections for everyone. thank's to all for all your input. it really put's things in perspective........
krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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See Kevin? Even an old dog can learn a few tricks. I was checking out the meet on the future meets page. I really dig the logo. The food looks good too! I hope this thing works out well for you. It is a good idea to ask Heads to bring their musical instruments, too. We had a smoking "unplugged" session at Mars, and I just enjoyed one at Dixie as well. A meet tends to take on a life of its own. It is colored by every character in attendance as surely as those empty panels will be slung with 1-Shot. Have fun. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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thanks jill. i am looking forward to this meet, so i can go on a vaction afterward. Mark Casey of Casey Signs came up with the logo. I couldn't be any happier. look forward to having pounce patterns made available for the meet.
krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I wish you all the luck in the world to pull off a super meet. I am sure it will be one good one!!
If I or others were tough on you it wan't a personal attack. It was, in my case, a lack of understanding/communication of what your meet was all about.
As soon as I hear the words "new technology excluded" (my interpretation of things, not WHAT YOU SAID) my hackles came up!!
Sorry if I offended you Kevin..I am sure we'll meet some day and laugh about the silliness of the bitching, but at this point I am going to put my money on the Maritime Meet.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
that's great. any meet is good... the most valuable part is sharing and preserving. the true spirit of letterheads. maybe i should go to brians as well.
just kidding. krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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more information will be here today. for now, i am working with W&B gold leaf out of Chicago to possibily have them show the process of hand beating-gold. this is something i would like to see. i understand the gold starts out 1"x1", then after 18-20 hour's of beating, there is a sheet of gold-leaf waiting to be used.
reg. form should also be ready a little bit later today
so sorry for the delay. I am getting 100% commitments as i type. so for now, what is posted should be what is happening. i am getting excited to see so much knowledge with so many bruthers of the brush.
also, our flyer has been posted in the future meets. thank's.......... krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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... Before the internet, the Letterhead movement was a very different thing than it has now "evolved" into. These days there is this site and its rabid readers who represent the "new" way that meet info gets (and is expected to be) distributed. ..as you have noticed.
... The original Letterheads gathered to share "lost" techniques and designs in an effort to preserve these methods of bygone sign eras . Now, technology has taken over signmaking, and the original "ideal" has changed. Many newcomers to the sign biz and the "internet" Lheads are aware of very little about the sign realm beyond the modern technological aspects of it. This is why people have gotten hostile (to you) over your brave (yet cool) concept of an "old fashioned" styled meet.
...So now apparently. any meet host has to (appear to) include something for stick on jockys, or they may feel excluded and get all worked up. ...Not that anyone at meets is actually doing stick on lettering at a meet. Most everybody who attends ends up having fun with paint anyway.
posted
I've seen vynull at most meets. Sometimes it's a paint mask someone is using for glue-chipping or fancy effects like Superfrog teaches, or doming from Homer the Domer.
Modern technology is a necessary evil to be sure, but if "lickie-sticky-letterheads" attend a live meet, boy do they catch fire when they get their hands on some paint. Even if it is learning a faux finished background for an "instant sign".
It's all about the learning, and the sharing, and the fellowship and cameraderie. Everyone can benefit from attending a live meet, whether it's picking up some new techniques, buying some good books and brushes, learning layout skills and pricing strategies, or even a feel-good talk by Dennis Gerathy. And yakking on this BB is the next best thing. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I think what it all boils down to...is improving one's skills and broadening one's horizons as a signmaker. (Or airbrush illustrator, or gilder, or striper)
The end result. Better work.
A good sign, is the result of good design skills. These skills include use of color, typestyles and negative and posative space, among other things.
Good designs can be achieved with a quill, a #2 pencil, a mouse or a sharpie marker.
I'm not going to hijack Kevin's post, and lead it in a different direction, but you seem to have a very narrow point of view regarding the trade. Not all people that work with computers and vinyl are "jockeys" or hacks. No more than all signmakers that work with paint are superior. They are two of many mediums we use.
Truth be known, I probably would view Kevin with a little more respect, if he had stuck to his guns about this being a "computer-free meet". I've said it many times, that a man needs to have convictions. He was dead-set on the no computer thing when I spoke with him last week...now he apparently is sucumbing to the pressure of the "pro-technology" crowd. Maybe he's just adapting and adjusting, which is also an admirable trait.
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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I just wanted to keep people posted on what I am working on. I am trying to set up a QuickBooks seminar. I talked with a company that only teaches QuickBooks and we are trying to work out details about having someone come in and teach how to set up QuickBooks for our industry. And maybe even a seminar for the more advance users. Would anyone be interested in something like this? They quoted me a price yesterday but I wasn't happy with it. The gal is going back to talk with her boss to see how they can scale it down. They wanted each class to be 3 hrs and I thought that was too long. I suggestd 2 hrs classes and maybe even 2-3 2hr. classes. I told her that I would post it on the board and see what the response is.
I am also working on seeing if I can get Home Depot to donate some pink stryofoam insulation. This would be for another workshop that I am working on. A workshop to learn how to route, carve, and paint this stuff so that it looks like stone. Stone for pillars, stone wall, decorations, etc. Is there any interest in this?
[ May 13, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Laura, I think Quickbooks training is an excellent idea for signshop owners. I also think trying to have a seminar at a meet is probably no so good of an idea. If Quickbooks wanted to sponsor a pre-paid seminar that just explains the basic features to help sell us on the product... that would be good... but the next level of training needed IMO is so different & personally catered to a specific shops needs... that as much as I would be willing to pay for QB training... I wouldn't pay anything to sit in a room full of others to get generic information... even if it doesn't cost "extra"... I wouldn't even pay attention because I don't think there is that much to say about it beyond the basics that would apply to everyone.
Hosting a meet is always a grand undertaking and it takes a lot of personal time and effort. It seems like your really putting you heart and soul into this one to create an exceptional event, and joing us here seems to have fired you up even more...just like a live meet does.
How cool is that?
Welcome to Letterville! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Doug, I had thought the same and didn't know what this training company could cover in such a short amount of time. I myself, am ready to ungrade from QBPro2002 to a new versions and have wondered which edition is best for our type of industry. If this company can't give us anything that we can work with, I do have an inside connection to QB's. My nephew is the head of the website design department. (IN his late 20's he had over a 6 figure income). So I imagine that he could probably give me a name to contact to see if I can get them to come in as a vendor/seminar (maybe just to explain the different editions so we can decide which is best for us)/ and hopefully donate some software.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
First off I would just like to say that the computer is just a tool, and a very rarely used one in my business (except for playing around online when I should be working) but valuable as can be when we do use it for production, and saves me amazing amounts of time.....just as bad signs are made with the "evil" computer there are equally as bad signs generated by the brush, open your mind to the tools, techniques and materials available to you and you can make amazing things, what a joy it is to learn new techniques to be able to make a larger variety of signs for our customers....
at my next meet I would rather see a description or short class or demonstration of estimate instead of quickbooks, however I have no personal preference as to what is shown at this meet as I feel that should be decided by the people who will be in attendance at this meet.
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Laura, I think it would be a lot more beneficial to teach people the basics of accounting and taxes rather than some software that is suppost to do everything for them. The software is only as good as the person who set it up & the person running it. Having a background in accounting, I am constantly amazed at the amount of people (in all industries) who operate their own businesses and don't have the first clue about accounting.
ie. Sole proprietors of un-incorporated businesses take money out of the business as a DRAW, not as Wage Expense.
Also: there are also a lot of hack tax preparers out there who just take the numbers their customers give them without looking into their business & as a result these people lose out on tax deductions.
Edited to add: I'm with Dan on the estimate thing. If I hadn't been bitched at constantly to get it, I wouldn't have bought it. (Thanks Rochon) There was a learning curve & I took the time to go over all the materials putting in my costs but now I love it. I've heard others say they don't have time to learn it. Can't get them to understand taking a couple hours today to learn it will save you many hours doing estimates from here on.
posted
Here's my two cents: Don't waste $$ on a quick-books seminar. You MIGHT get 2 attendees. Nobody wants to sit and listen to something like that for 3 hours when there is PAINT calling their names (and gold leaf too) At least nobody I know.... Talks on bookeeping and pricing are always nice to hear, but better when they are coming from a fellow Head who knows the ropes of the sign biz. As for the insulation seminar, I want to paint a banner for that area: "The Itchy and Scratchy Show!" hahahaha Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Kissy, YOu are right abut the accounting. I believe if someone wants their business to start showing a profit, they need to know more about accounting. I still haven't given up on the QB's.
Jill, I too think 3 hrs. is way to long too. I have to disagree with "someone would rather paint". I would rather learn more about accounting thatn paint and then hire someone to do the painting I need. I don't want to hear someone in our business talk to me about accounting. I want to go to a professional.
I hope that we can agree to disagree.
Kissy, You made me think of another seminar that might be possible. I have a good customer that is a law professor at University of Michigan. Maybe I should look into having him talk on the difference of S-Corp, vs LLC, etc. My business is a S corp and now I am wondering if it should have been an LLC.
[ May 13, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Me personally, I would have no need for this in what i do. Maybe there are some that would. I don't know. I think we should leave the issue to a minimum.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I pay an accountant to do my books....I would rather PAINT...as would most of the Letterheads I know. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Laura I recommend that you stick to the basics of a typical meet. If I want accounting information I know where to go. Besides I agree with the others that if were going to do ANYTHING in the direction of running a business I would prefer someone in the same business to be talking to me.
I have a former co-worker who went to one of thses so called Quickbooks seminars that was sponsored by the software vendor and lets just say, she learned more about the software in one day of using it than she did in that seminar that our boss paid too much for. At that point I was VERY glad I didnt pay anything for the seminar when I had my previous business.
Furthermore I dont want some legal mumbojumbo person talking in legaleze to me. Its only going to be HIS/HER "opinion" anyway. Ask 5 lawyers the same question and youll get 6 answers, all being somewhat correct.
Why dont you try contacting Mark Smith from Estimate about maybe doing some sort of seminar and bringing demo and sale copies of his software, I for one have faith in his software. I tried the demo and liked it ALOT.
Try appealing to the masses instead of yourself and youll accomplish much more.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dana says that there is just no accounting for me...
Wow! I didn't know they had pink insulation in the 30's! What the heck were the guys that built my house thinking? They could have been using that stuff instead of the "stuff" they did...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6454 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I just got of the phone with Ken Millar, he is teaming up with Bob Behoneck to give a Layout and Design seminar. This should be great to watch.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'm amazed that Dana hasn't kicked yer sorry butt to the curb yet!!!!!!!!
What is that insulaton "stuff" that that they used in the 30's to make fake stone anyway??? hahahahaha
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Apart from being an award-winning sign painter/artist/designer (not necassarily in that order) I also have a degree in astro-physics which I could give a seminar on. Who knows, in the future we might have to paint in the dark, wieghtless vacuum that is the void of space......and we will all need to know how the properties of paint change in such a hostile environment. However, if I need plumbing I call a plumber; if I need electrics I call an electrician; if I need building I call a builder. Guess who I call when I need accounting? As for pink insulation.....I prefer green. Well it's Friday afternoon, the sun is low in the sky and the bar closes at 0200. Time for a beer, some inspiration and then in the early hours gazing at the stars and planets, dreaming of putting the first sign on Mars. The moon is so yesterday.
-------------------- Brian O'Prey Brian O'Prey, Artist and Designer 5 Old Movilla Road, Newtownards County Down Northern Ireland BT23 8HH Tel. 028 9181 3517 email-brianlionzion@hotmail.com Posts: 91 | From: Newtownards, County Down, Ireland | Registered: Aug 2003
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An old signpainter at the 83' Kansas meet said if I want my brushes to last longer, take a push pin, heat the tip and above the wire, push the pin into the ferrule creating what he described as drain holes. This allows the paint,thinner and brush oil to clean the hairs inside the ferrule better and prevents an air bubble from getting sealed in. This air bubble, he said, causes paint build up which eventually will cause the brush to split or lose hair. I have been doing that since and found the results to be true.
krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thanks for the tip, Kevin! I don't have one of those new-fangled hydroponic autoclavish Joey Madden type thingies for cleaning brushes. Gonna do that ASAP. Good idea! Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Oh yeah Jill, those new fandangle hydroponic autoclavish whatshamacallit thingies have been saving my brushes for over 30 years, thats nu tecknoligie learnin to klean ya brushes huh?
Thank you Kevin for the email and history lesson about your father and grandfather I enjoyed the good read. I'd like to make your meet but am totally afraid of Masonic temples and big cities
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Actually I pay my accountant to clean my brushes. j.
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Joey, no need to worry. I think once your inside you will be memorized. The building was built from 1922-1927. It is the world's largest. Some of the room's have never been touched since then. I believe there is somewhere around 1,045 room's in the building.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Kevin, I think you mean MESmerized. Memorizing Joey!!!? hehehehe THAT could take a while!!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
P.S. My Great-Grandfather also painted sign's. He started in 1927. Before that, he was a Window Dresser. Back then, there were 2 guy's responsible for a window. One a Dresser, the other a Sho-card writer. When the depression hit, the company had to lay one off. Since he already knew how to dress a window, he told them he could also do the lettering. So goes another story of how someone got into the business. I bet there are alot of stories like this one. We all had to start somewhere...
Another brush tip:
To straighten a bent brush, clean with laquer thinner, spin the brush out in your hand's, let dry about 10 min. Comb the hair's; which should ALWAYS be done prior to painting, then turn on a light bulb, around 75 watts, gently put the hair on the bulb, applying a little pressure with your thumb, than slowly pull in the opposite direction of the bent hairs. The heat will re-shape the hairs as you pull them while applying a little pressure. It should be corrected in maybe 2-3 pulls. When you are satisfied, comb the hair again and oil. That's it. This has been passed down in the family. Knowledge is great, but only if it's shared.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Sorry for any misspelling, my mind is faster than my finger's. Boy my hands are sore.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
You mean your fingers are faster than your mind.
-------------------- Brian O'Prey Brian O'Prey, Artist and Designer 5 Old Movilla Road, Newtownards County Down Northern Ireland BT23 8HH Tel. 028 9181 3517 email-brianlionzion@hotmail.com Posts: 91 | From: Newtownards, County Down, Ireland | Registered: Aug 2003
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Bri, I think my brain is closing down. I think I will go to sleep for now. To tired to stay awake.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Here is another update: I have enlisted Jay Elliot who has been involved in varnish for the past 20 years. He does all of our work when we need something varnished. This will be a very exciting aspect to the craft. I will continue to bring more information as it comes in. Thank You.
krazy kevin
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 230 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hi Kevin... Am looking forward to this meet and would be disappointed to see you thrown off track by a few nay-sayers. The idea is really a great one and I would have thrown my support in earlier but like you I also have problems trying to do simple things like login etc. Bill Pickett got it right a few notes back and with that and the Detroit Lettering School as a "moniker" and "mentor" for such an event you should stay the course. It's not difficult to predict this might be one of the great ones.!!!!! Before the earlier posts were deleted(as they should have been) there were some very disparaging remarks made about the original letterheads. Mark,Noel and the many others (new and old)etc. I took this as a personal affront as these people are friends of mine who not unlike you and I have difficulties with this medium, whether thru lack of time or interest. It was truly an inspiration, on their behalf,to have this wonderful organised un-organisation! I'm sure they had ventures like yours in mind when they left it all open for personal inspiration and interpretation. I'd also like to add that,it was also open for people like Steve here (with his web page) and Dave and Doc (with the magasine)to use the name "letterheads" without recrimination.
posted
I must admit I was kinda one of the nay-sayers on that other post. But I have been in contact a lot with Kevin recently thru emails, IMs, and a phone call today. He has the best of intentions. He is a lot like me in planning the 2002 International. He just wants to please everybody, and that in and of itself is an awesome task. There will be many of my heroes at this meet: Knecht, Behounek, Millar (those are all the names I can think of without scrolling back) and of course Kevin's dad, Wild Bill. Unfortunately today we live in an "instant" society- instant messages, websites, even instant signs. Many of the comments folks found offensive on the other post were not made by Kevin. Kevin wasn't "hip" in the ways of Letterville, but he has come a long way in one week about posting. I have seen him attacked in other posts, and it makes me SAD. That is NOT what Letterheads is about. It's about fellowship, sharing, teaching. Not bitching and behind-the-back gossiping. Let he who has NOT hosted an International throw the first stone. If you haven't done it, quit yer whining about costs and being mean to others. Some folks have YET to go to a meet! Attend a meet, any meet, be it Detroit or not. You will see that any meet takes on a life of its own. The people are what make the meet. Yes, it has to be organized...like clockwork. Yes, it is horrendously expensive to do. Yes, it will change your life, as a host and as a guest. I agree that most of us do use computers. But everyone can benefit from learning a few basic design principles. Not everyone paints. But we all share common jobs....designing, dealing with customers, working with colors, promoting our businesses. And one of the best things you can do for yourself as a signmaker is to attend a live meet. End of rant. Kevin....GOOD LUCK. Thank you for your hard work. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Memorizing Joey!!!? hehehehe THAT could take a while!!
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