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my dad used white lead and grumbacher pigments, he stirred the paint with his fingers to get it mixed good. He used one shot later, but his first sign was done with varnish and coal dust,in 1921 he mixed it and lettered a U.S. Post Office in Hornersville Mo. After then it was all downhill LOL! Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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My Grandfather used Pratt and Lambert oil colors mostly mixed his own according to the job, using linseed oil, varnish, white lead etc. so I've been told. My family's shop was still using those colors for walls as late as the 50's when I was first getting interested. Still mixing our own paint for the oudoor wall stuff.(back then)
[ April 29, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Ogden ]
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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As I understand it - Sherwin-Williams was the first company to come out with colors in a can that you could buy off the shelf in 1935, and they wouldn't mix together. They were called "Bulletin Colors". Up until then painters had to mix their own as stated above, using white lead, lamp black, turpentine, thinner, etc. and either artists' oil colors or dry color pigments and mix them in. There were many more black, white and grey signs done back then instead of colored ones - the paint was only good for a day or two and then turned "fat" and was only used for the back sides or to paint the fence with. So there would be no cans with labels in 1925, unless maybe there were for japans(?) - make one up for Tardiff Sign Enamels and have some fun.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'll try to take a photo of one of the old "Coach Painter's" press cans when I go to the shop in the morning. The cans had soldered caps and the press had a side handle and was geared to squeeze the pigment into the can with lead and oil and varnish.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6733 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I was very surprised to learn that Japan colors were used to paint the first automobiles. My father and two uncles worked for the Hudson MOTOR car Co. in NYC IN THE EARLY 20's. Primed with white lead and linseed oil and each of several coats of black japan with more varnish added to each coat. The bodys were made of wood then.
When I started painting signs, all paper signs were done with japan colors.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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When John Saint completed his apprenticeship to a guy named Mitchel,in Glendale California around '52,this can was given to him. When I completed my apprenticeship to John, he gave it to me. I hope this helps you with your quest.
[ April 30, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6733 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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What about the guys running the Museum? They must have inherited a load of stuff from Rick Glawson, maybe they have some info on dates...
I was amazed when I found out all Model Ts were hand brush painted outdoors with lacquer and hand rubbed. Henry didn't install spray painting until the Model As in '28. If you ever get a chance to see an original T in really good condition, look closely at the paint and you can sometimes see the brush marks. When they wax them, they have to pay attention to that grain.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Early in the 20's some signwriters were experimenting with mixed success, using bicycle enamels, floor and trim enamels, lacquers, Japans and marine enamels. My Grandad and Dad used Signwriters Black oil paste, mixed in spar varnish (usually Murphy or McMurtry) with leaded japan drier added as the most common mixture. Other oil pigments (colors ground in linseed oil) were used as well and Japan colors (ground in Japan varnish) which can be mixed in any varnish, shellac or lacquer clear or just topcoated with one of those as Bill indicated. The can that Rick shows is one of many ways to dispense oil and Japan colors. We had a cupped paddle to "spoon out" the color from quarts and gallons as well as many colors in tubes. These were not artists oils but "professional" colors, better for outdoor exposure and colorfastness. Actually Skoler was the first to produce a ready mixed lettering enamel in 1931, limited to "one shot" white (the first to use that name), black and immitation gold. King Cole followed with enamel colors to supplement their popular ready-mixed Japans in tubes and cans. SW then developed ready mixed bulletin colors which matched the OAAA color specification that had been developed in 1928. Their claim to fame was their consistant color matching. By the way there originally was a color for every number from 100 to 199 but most were only mixed from oil pigments, not ready mixed. The competition immediately followed suit and by WWII there were over 150 companies making bulletin enamels across the country. As to what would be appropriate for the movie, a tube of color and a can of varnish or better yet, the ready mixed color in a Gerber baby food CAN, the answer to the bathroom paper cup of today.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Very interesting stuff to know about. We should start a topic about the history of paint, it would be very interesting! I just printed the entire topic for future reference!
They are not going with a labelled can as the time is running out and the research for clearing the name brand would take too long. They are filming this part on monday morning.
But keep the information coming!
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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OK, I researched all my old pics, the oldest one that showed a paint can in the picture was my Dad and his twin brother in their newly opened sign shop in 1944, I was 5. My uncle is painting a bomb head red with sherwin-williams enamel. This picture is huge, but the compressed version didn't show the paint can label. My Dad had a paint store in the front of the shop. He always claimed that he invented spray lat, and it was stolen from him. I never did question him.
[ May 01, 2004, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Bill Biggs ]
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am going to do an extensive paint history and paint mixing seminar at Detroit. If there are specifics anyone would like for me to include, let me know via e-mail.
Thanks.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks, Rick- I was given a very old cast-iron press by a coach-painter about 16 years ago, and always wondered what the cans it took were like.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I see the resemblance, Bill What a cool piece of family history to have that photo....would love to see more!!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Nice picture, Bill! Kent was the formula for house paint back in the 20's -- 100lb cake of white lead, 5 gallons of boiled linseed oil and a pint and a half of turpentine? I was told by farmers, the painters would stir the concoction which took considerable time, and that the average painter had white, shutter green and black on hand and anything in addition to that was made with the lead in oil pastes in the soldered cans or tubes. Was titanium dioxide a part of white lead? Set me straight here.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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White lead by itself was the white pigment of choice which also acted as its own dryer. Most mixtures were individual but about a pound of white lead to a gallon of oil which was thinned with a pint of turpentine. There was also a paste you could get which was called Radio white or Super white and had about 60% white lead and 30% titanium white which was brighter than plain lead. The mixture was also called white wash as it had no varnish in it and when the money was slim, you thinned it down even more with turps, oleum or white gas, making basically a white stain. Mixed with spar varnish, the mix became a paint which theoretically had the ability to "seal" the surface to protect it. It would also adhere better to metal and other hard surfaces with varnish. Later mixes included zink white which was supposed to keep down molds and midews in the oil and keep the blend of whites from yellowing. Titanium, white lead and zink white are all three different substances. Starting with the white base, you could add about any earth color and have colored paints. Most earth ground pigments overpower lead white and the mix becomes that color without being a pastel. About 10 to 20% by volume of Chrome Green makes stnadard school house interior green, which was the most common color used in homes as well. Most painters also used a mix with pure red lead which was where barn red came from and red oxide primer too. We used to break up white lead by kneading it with our bare hands, mix with linseed oil and use as a primer, thinning only slightly with turps. This is what we primed the Spanjer wood letters with for Woolworth or JC Penney. Can't imagine why I haven't died yet from lead poisoning and if we had our kids today doing such dangerous work, we would be jailed.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Kent! By my calculations, I'm only 19 lbs off on the lead. What form was the lead in? Was it a cake, powder? You kneaded it like dough?
And if properly applied, and average exposure what kind of longevity did they get from these paints? Just what did the lead do? Was it for opacity and coverage? It's a fascinating story. We had a Coca Cola sign in our hometown that faced south and had been painted over many times with more modern paints and it kept peaking through -- outlasting them all. Eventually it was sandblasted away. The book Ghost Signs by Wm. Stage is one of my favorites. I love the stories.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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