-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
This doesn't happen very often but I have to agree with Brian Briskie and others here and will add that it just ain't friggin worth it. Here we go as everything has come so far and yet some of you can't practice what you preach, shame on you, the original 7, thats a joke in itself
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
quote: I am trying not to offend anyone because of the computer but, in my 21 years of Letterhead Meets, I believe education is the future.
Letterheads have changed in the last 21 years. I agree with you that the traditions of sharing knowledge is the real core of what the Letterhead movement is. Those who are interested in learning/sharing tips, tricks, technical knowledge in the sign industry are more frequently those who use modern technology and materials. I'm sorry, Kevin, but I think the direction this post is about to take is not going to be very favorable to your meet. Given the information on this post to date, sadly, I think the damage has been done and the sense of alienation by those who predominantly use computers may be already in place.
When I first read the information on the "Future Live Meets" (very little at that), I felt like I was reading about a museum tour, very unlike the meets I've attended in the past. As this post has developed, I think my initial felling was pretty close to the mark.
I sincerely hope you take some of these posts into consideration as you make future arrangements for this meet.
"The wise man must remember that while he is a descendant of the past, he is a parent of the future." -Herbert Spencer
Best of luck, Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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What started out as a good idea -- people in the same craft, sharing knowledge and experiences has evolved. There used to be a loosely held idea that there would be one meet each year that was the mother-of-all meets. This meet would have the word "INTERNATIONAL" attached to it to seperate it from the others. This meet would include everyone who was interested in our allied trades. Those with the most successes both in skills and knowledge would lead these meets with their seminars and connections. All processes involved -- both old and new, were always highlighted during these events. Those who supplied us with their products were given a chance to participate and instuct us on the latest improvements. Those who aspired to get better or learn more about these crafts could count on the international meet to have the diversity and energy to give them the enthusiasm to go back home and try to bring their skills to a higher level. In turn all of us involved would be assured that our crafts would take on a greater respectability in our society after years of low esteem.
We have benefitted greatly because of the Letterhead movement, and we have taken our crafts from a secretive downtrodden ways of life, where the artists got little respect and had little clout in the business community into a way of life we can be proud of -- where we make a difference in the quality of life for humanity.
Somewhere along the way, as this thing got bigger, there arose a group who thought that they were vastly superior to others. They looked down their noses at the rest who were aspiring to get better. This is probably a natural evolution. There are those of us who really don't want to rain on these people's parade. If they want to lock themselves into a conference hall and sooth each others egos, they are certainly entitled. The word "international" should be taken off the title of their meet, because it does not correctly apply to their attitude.
Not to mention names, but not all highly skilled artisans are approachable. They make you feel like you are inferior in their midst. The best craftsman do not necessarily make the best teachers or promoters of our crafts. Being around them has never helped me become better, it has only made me not want to be like them. I'm not shy about lending a person a helpful tip or even helping a competitor with a problem. It seems like every time I help someone, I get helped threefold.
Maybe this evolution is the reason why we have so many more meets than we used to. I keep hearing how much people enjoy smaller more intimate meets when all they really want to do is learn something and share something. It's hard to have a positive exchange when the person on the other end has his nose out of joint. This year's supposed "international meet" has its nose out of joint. I've seen this coming for some time. I hope it's not the death nail of these events, because I think its important to have a bigger event where we "ALL" can get in touch with the diversity that has helped promote what we do.
[ May 07, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm starting to think that "they" came up with that $189 price because they knew they didn't want the majority there and knew if they wanted a good meal they'd have to pony up the money themselves...but, I have a feeling those caterers are going to have a Sh!t Load of food left over and that someone is going to be paying the difference between what they thought they would have in dollars from attendance and reality...Good Luck Your Gonna Need It.
This all is really unfortunate the reality of our industry is that if the "masters" of our craft do not share their skills and techniques it will become lost and technology and the quicky sticky shops will take over....
have a great time at your "international meet" telling each other how great you were....(not are)
and for the record my decision has nothing to do with Brian "the kick butt with a brush and make it look easy and cool at the same time", and I'd hate for him to feel that he is responsible for everyone jumping ship on this meet.
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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It's not about the price. There are people in this trade who bitch about paying anything to attend a meet - I well remember all the tirades about the Mazeppa Muster in '99, how expensive it was, yada yada. But I don't recall anyone going up to Mike afterward and wanting their money back, because that was a great meet.
That said, excluding any demos or materials related to computer-aided signmaking, and to do so in such a clumsy and insulting fashion, is a plain invitation to disaster.
There's no greater exponent of learning the traditional skills than myself - and I've been more than happy to use the latest technology to say so. I believe there's a future for the one out of a thousand people who learn to hand-letter, simply because they ARE one out of a thousand - and there's no down side, in a competive industry, to having another skill in the arsenal, as it were.
I'm not going to jump on the Kevin-bashing wagon here; I've only met him a few times, briefly, over the years. His decisions regarding the focus of a meet he's organizing are his responsiblity, however, as Judi said, to call a meet an International - with all the implications in that - and to deliberately exclude a major portion of the sign industry, is in itself an example of irresponsible behavior. In the end, that does more damage than benefit to the movement, and to the ideals of traditional sign-making that he is so desperate to preserve. And that's just a damn shame.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ms. Judi, I was'nt even thinking of looking at info about this meet . . . but got to readin' the replies between you and Jill, the truth really shines thru; ya'll are the cream-of-the-crop.
The words on your last reply should be made into a letterheads credo or somethin'.
Thanks sign chicks for sayin' things SO beautifully straight forward
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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In all honesty the price has very little to do with it, I have just not been convinced that it is worth the price for what is "being provided" obviously the potential of knowledge and new I mean old techniques learned is invaluable. However I am not going to waste my limited time to travel and attend a meet that is so far completely disorganized, unpromoted, and thus far completely lacking the letterhead philosophy as I have come to understand it in the half of my life that I have dedicated to this craft. Thus far in my opinion this meet is being promoted to very few, offering very little that applies to the real world workings of todays industry, has alienated almost everyone, and sounds like a expensive way to see a temple that I have no interest in, while eating the best meals in an atmosphere that is starting to sound like most of us are not welcome in....count me out, I'd rather go to nearby humble joes sign and creative thinkings shop, and share a technique learn a new one, eat a barbequed hamburger with friends in the industry swapping lies and creating new ones and leaving our signatures on his refridgerator....I was starting to type out what I thought could and should be done to reinform the masses of this meet and what I'd like to see and learn at this meet...but I am too frustrated and just don;t give a rip any more good luck to you
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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I thought it went the other way, Don. If you use 6% for 74 years and the future value is $189.90, then the 1930 cost would be $2.55. That's figuring it backwards.
(edited in) I used 6% but I see you used about 3%. That would be appx $21.31.
[ May 08, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Bill Cosharek ]
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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I think both of you are correct. Just depends on which way you look at it.
What would $189.90 in 1930 be worth today...or what would $189.90, today, have been worth in 1930.
Edited to say.....
"I THINK"
Boy my head hurts!!!!!!!!!
The more I think about it the more my head hurts!!!!!!!!
Why don't people ask easy questions, like, what is the sum total of 1+1+1 in the binary numerical system??????
[ May 08, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
OK, maybe this will help put things in perspective. In 1973, a brand spankin new Farrari Dino stickered for $15,000...that included destination, dealer prep, everything.
Should there be a reunion Detroit Temple meet in 20 years, expect the entry fee to be about the same...$15,000.
Of course, a big reason for that will be that in 20 years, it will be hard to fill a hotel room with sign people who don't use computers, let alone any kind of meeting hall. A two person "international" meet would be awful expensive.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
is $189.90 so much money. to learn how to make more money.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Kevin if you would, please tell me what you are intending to teach us at this event that will teach us how to make more money?
We can continue to beat a dead horse here but I'm going to step away from all that for a moment and ask you honestly, what are you going to teach us at this meet? how will whatever you are going to teach us benefit all of us in our businesses? who is going to share these "things" with us that are going to make us more money?
$189 is not alot of money, but I'd sure like to know what it is going to buy me.
We've all heard about this 1930's theme and I think it is great to have a theme and a direction, but please tell me how the elimination and exclusion of modern day materials, equipment, and techniques at this meet is going to benefit me, my business, and make me more money.
Please tell me who is going to be leading what projects or classes? Please tell me what vendors are going to be represented? Please tell us all what we are going to gain from this meet?
I truly am not trying to be sarcastic or nasty here, there are many people who are frustrated and feel alienated including myself. Please educate us on why we should all invest our valuable time in this event and what we will gain from it?
I sincerely look forward to your reply....sell us on this event, the stage is yours.......
[ May 09, 2004, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Dan Streicher ]
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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is this meet about making money or sharing the know-how of one to another. I know how to make money,it's easy. but it's getting better at lay-out & design that's hard.
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Kevin you are the one who posed the question
"is $189.90 so much money. to learn how to make more money."
since you made that statement I'm just asking how you are going to teach me to make more money.
You ask "is this meet about making money or sharing the know-how of one to another"
I don't know I am waiting for you to tell me.
Since almost everyone has said something about the price that you came up with and it was stated earlier that you came up with this price before any of the other people helping you with this were involved, and it seems to be a topic of interest. Why don't you just tell us how you came up with that price and put that topic to rest? we are all aware that these events cost money, we all live and work in the real world.
Aditionally I would just like to state that I think it is kind of close minded to exclude vendors who truly want to help (which would also lower the cost for the people attending) because their products were not in use during the era that you are choosing for the theme of this meet, that in my opinion does nothing to introduce all of the attending craftsmen to new products that we do have to use in the here and now world.
The majority of the information that all of us have received has been second hand from people who have spoke with you and posted what has transpired, you are here now, tell us what you are trying to accomplish, what we can expect, why we should be excited to attend this meet, I don't know how to be any more clear.....you ask a question and answer with another question, lets get the details out on the table so people can start planning...August may seem like a long ways away but most of us as I am assuming you are own and run very busy businesses and planning needs to be done....I've asked what I needed to ask to make my decision on if I am going to make the trek to this event, will you please answer my questions so that I can make a decision. I appreciate your time in answering my questions and everyone elses, we all understand that this is a monumental task to achieve and that you are not going to make everyone happy but we all need some information on this event.....thank you
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Thanks for the email Kevin I just went back to one of your posts, & found the inspiration for how I wanted to reply. I think you seem like an awfully nice guy, doing a thankless job that most of us will never do, & of those who have, many will never do again. The sad thing is you are now in a position to not only recieve minimum appreciation for your "thankless" job... but you are also subject to maximum criticism.
...it's time for SOME SERIOUS DAMAGE CONTROL dude!!
It's never too late to sieze an opportunity to react to a situation & turn the tide. Here is the post where I found my inspiration to send this reply:
"I am trying not to offend anyone because of the computer but, in my 21 years of Letterhead Meets, I believe education is the future. If the masses believe that the computer be part of the International, than so be it. I no longer know what is expected of a International. After Rick's passing, I felt inclined to establish a home and a place to secure the knowledge of the past. Maybe I have been to worried about providing good expectations that I forgot to inform everyone. My ears are open for suggestions and ideas to make your accommodations a pleasant stay. I look forward to exchanging tips and tricks of the trade with everyone. I will have a list for projects, leaders, events, etc. on Monday morning, May 10th..."
Take the hint from the brewing discension... you don't seem at all like a stubborn guy... the mob mentality in Letterville can be ruthless, but we're all basically good people. I've been an azzhole a time or two, others have, (sometimes to me)... but so many of us are posting here every single day... that zhit happens, you react, you deal, you move on... basically everyone gets along. So if your post quoted above really means you are backing down on the computer/no computer issue... then post that loud & clear... invite Signgold too, & Kent's wifes product (whatever that is again) It may be too late for them to show now, but maybe you could still get in the good graces of the sizable percentage of heads that are beginning to feel alienated if you START YOUR OWN THREAD WITH A RETRACTION OF YOUR POST 1930 RESTRICTIONS, & ANOTHER INVITATION FOR SUGGESTIONS. I see you basically did these 2 things to some degree in the post I quoted... but the shock waves of the initial reaction to some information about your meet are now reverberating much too loudly to be silenced with a few words lost 40 replies deep into an old thread. START MONDAY OFF ON A NOTE OF HUMBLE RECONCILLIATION WITH YOUR "LIST" & WILLINGNESS TO LET IT EVOLVE AS PER THE WISHES OF THE MASSES. BE A FACILITATOR FOR "WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT" NOT A DICTATOR OF WHAT YOU WILL ALLOW.
I know you mean well, & I hate to join the ranks of the discension without offering the olive branch of comraderie. You seem to have have unwittingly made yourself a target while trying only to offer a good thing... while this may be true, that fact alone will not reverse what is currently happening. They say two wrongs don't make a right... & our jumping on your case may be wrong... but if you don't stand up & deal with it now... I don't think things will turn out right.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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I've been following it for a while, and now it's time for me to comment First, as usual, the whiners are jumping in and not offering any kind of positive reinforcement for someone who's taking on such a monumental task. Second, I recall a recent post about rules at a Letterhead meet. If I remember correctly, it's up to the host to make his own rules. Since Kevin's hosting this meet, we have to play by Kevin's rules. If we don't like his rules, we don't have to attend. Third, As I and many others have experienced in the past, it's tough to get a Letterhead to commit to anything. Remember, Laura is just a messenger. She can only inform you of what's confirmed. Although she's fairly new to the business, she's learned a lot over the last couple of years and she is being proactive in helping the Letterhead cause. If you have comments, positive or negative, you should contact her and allow her time to address your comments with the committee. Since most of these people working on these committees are volunteers and have other commitments, you may have to wait a while to get your answers. If you're impatient - see my second comment. Finally, I admire Kevin's approach to hosting a meet like this. In a way, I feel it's cutting edge by taking a giant step backwards. I'll admit that without a computer, I would not be a sign maker and I would have chosen a different career path. However, I have learned that good design is not something that can be done by a computer. The computer is just a tool that makes designing a lot easier. By eliminating these crutches that most new sign makers use, we gain a better understanding on what makes a good design, great. So, before you write this meet off give these volunteers a little more time to finish up the details and give us another update. It's starting to sound like an educational meet that shouldn't be missed.
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with Doug, in that it's time to step up to the plate and nip this one in the bud. Cut losses and start anew.
I've hosted a Letterhead meet, at my shop, and understand the frustrations of organizing, budgeting and pleasing everyone, etc.
Attendee's who gather, will have come from all walks of life, each having something to offer and sacrifices made, to show up. Some will watch, some will share, some will learn and some will be there just to see if these Letterhead meets we boast about, are all they're cracked up to be. No matter your focal point or intentions, those who show up, will allow your meet to take on a life of it's own. It is then, this meet will no longer be in your contol.
I feel, it would be close minded and an injustice to everyone, to limit the representation of our industry products/vendors, to one era. The reality is, we're living in today. We, need contacts and knowledge about product, whether it's for a faux antique sign or a demonstration showing how well this or that vinyl conforms over rivits. If you feel you must remain limited, at the very least, the merchants who support Letterville, should receive an open invitation to promote their offerings. I hope, you reconsider and make amends with Brian and SignGold, as well as whomever else this decision has affected.
'Build it, and they will come.'
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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While I've been having serious doubts if I could even manage to go to this meet, I've been quite interested in the fundamental concept. I became quite excited when I first saw this,
“This will be a l930's theme showing different styles and techniques of that era. In addition, I will be re-opening the Detroit School of Lettering during which there will be an official ribbon cutting.”
...here http://www.letterhead.com/events.html ...last fall I believe. Not only was there going to be an International meet close enough to make it possible to attend, but perhaps I was going to be able to attend an event with that flare that was present at the early meets. A concentration of energy toward learning. A sharing of the fire and energy that builds inside when ideas, concepts & techniques are tossed about and explored. (That's every Letterhead meet!)
The more I learn about the agenda of the meet, the more I like the sound of it. I see Kevin Betz trying to stress a back to the basics approach with this meet. This is not to say I believe Kevin thinks we can rewrite history and remove the evil computer from our midst, but to focus on the basic elements of design to help improve the final product, whatever tool we choose to use. I'm sure Kevin knows computers are here to stay and benefits from their use daily. I see this as Kevin's attempt to guide the direction of the meet, not exclude specific individuals, ...but look what has happened.
Since no meet can exist without The People, and the people & suppliers can't exist without each other, I think this is a non issue. In my mind it is clear that Kevin was only trying to control or focus the theme by limiting the suppliers. To this I have to ask Kevin, ...shouldn't it be left up to the supplier? Good grief, I'd think you'd want as much support as possible. At the Letter Rip meet last summer, there were suppliers present but the Heads were all out working on projects, not hanging around the booths, but I remember who they were. This is what the suppliers need when the buyers do their buying. We all want to learn and a suppliers presence at a meet can only help. Since this is all about learning, many of us will make the time to check out the vendors wares, thus making our understanding & ability to function in todays world more balanced.
As I mull all of this over, I remember this is a diverse group coming from many perspectives. I recall my own feelings about adjusting to new technology. On one hand I wanted very much to be involved with the cutting edge. On the other hand, I longed for the past. I've tried to dream of the future, of what technology will avail for our craft and I've wanted to study in depth the methods of the past. I wonder how much of the tension being expressed about this meet, is our group as a whole adjusting to the passions we feel inside for our work. Many of us seem to be focused on making the work of the past, live today. It would probably be important to recall that we are all fired up inside about the best of the work from the past. I doubt that most could afford the best of the work in the nineteen thirties, as it is today. It seems to me that it is the artisan quality inside us that helps us appreciate extraordinary work. It also seems to me that it is that artisan quality, we are afraid the world will loose, if we don't try and keep it alive. If we can learn from each generation we will have accomplished something. If we can incorporate the most accurate and most productive techniques from each era, combined with good design principles we will have achieved something. If we can maintain this momentum of accomplished achievement, while preserving the artisans perception, ...wow, I'd like to see the result of that.
Bla, Bla, Bla ...
Enough of this, I've got to stain a floor.
Keep on sharing!
-------------------- Dave Parr Sign Painter USA Posts: 709 | From: USA | Registered: May 2003
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just stopped by to say hi. i have a truck to do but will be back later to give more info. and up-dates. kb
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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I am glad to see that those that have been lurking are finally coming out and posting postive things about this meet. There are many of you that have spoken what I have wanted to say and have said it more elouqantly then I could have. Thank you Thank you Thank you.
On to a second thought..and I hope I don't say anything to offend anyone but to open the eyes of a few. It is said that there is a way that you can tell when a parent and a child's roles have been reversed. When a parent is driving in a car and (a child is sitting in the seat next to them) stops suddenly, its almost automatic for the parent to throw their arm up to try to stop or protect the child from going forward. There are those times that we want to go somewhere and our parent goes along too as a passenger. You know the parent/child roles have reversed when the parent is in the seat next to the driver, you stop suddenly and you throw your arm out to protect your parent. Your roles are now changing.
I say this because I think we are at a time when many of you that have been at this for many years are now at a role reversal. As the older sign painter generation fades away, this next generation of sign people (those that have been at it 10,15, 20 years...) need to start thinking about reversing the roles. Instead of thinking about "what am I going to get out of this meet" Maybe its time to say "who can I spend time with, teach, pass on my knowledge" at this meet.
My first meet was at Troy Haas's. Gary Anderson showed myself and others how to do marble techniques on a sheet of aluminum. Sam and some others showed me how to use pinstriping brushes...take care of them, load them...clean them, pull a straight line, etc. CJ showed us how to tape out flames on a van that was going to be painted. Dave Draper showed us how make imitation stone pillars out of HDU.
Our next meet was Don Hulsey.I had never lettered, pinstriped, painted a sign in my life. PKing Duck let me use his brushes and he got me started. He showed both myself and my husband different strokes, lettering etc.
I know that each meet is different and takes on its own personality. What I have seen recently is that many people at meets, go, do some panels, hang with those that they know and generally have lots of fun. I hate to ask someone how to do something because I feel like I am interrupting.
I do want to thank the young man at Mike Meyers meet in Feb. that took the time to show myself and many others how to use an airbrush. He let us use his equipment, his paints, his time. He spent time with us. I am sorry but I don't remember your name but you know who you are. You to me have the whole essence of what the letterhead movement is all about. I am not saying that there aren't any others out there like you. Its just you took the time with me when I would not have asked.
[ May 09, 2004, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hi All, I have just read through all of this thread and I am amazed. I was so thrilled to be going to my first Letterhead Meet. To meet American signpainters, the best in the world. To learn techniques that are fast being forgotten. I am new to signpainting. I am fairly new to the Letterheads and I thought I might be out of my depth in coming to this meet, yet hoping that I would be able to learn something and feel a part of a good movement. I thought it was refreshing to have a meet where computers where not a part of it. Yes we all use them for making money, but to learn techniques and skills and how to do things from scratch without "help" was what I thought these meets where about and this one in particular. I am glad to be able to learn how to do things without relying on my computer.
I have spoken to Kevin on a few occaisions over a phone line with a terrible delay. But I found him to be charming and enthusiastic about this meet. My understanding is that he is just a business owner, putting on this event for others to share. He is not an events organiser or someone with any particular skills in this area. Give him some slack. I must say that all this back biting and bitchiness is putting me off going to this meet. I don't want to feel like a little school girl, too afraid to speak to all you people who have been in this trade for years and years. There are enough "old boys" in this country who think that the trade should die with them. I thought you might be different.
As for the cost of this meet. I think it is very reasonable. To do a 4 day glass gilding and glass chipping course in the UK cost £400.00 thats about $776.00. That does not include food! I hope that you can convince me that this will be a good place for a new signpainter to meet up with some of the best.
My parents are going to lend me the money for the flights, accommodation and meet so that I can expand my knowledge and feel more confident in my signpainting. I also hope that I will make some friends.............. or will I be disappointed?
-------------------- Barbara Murrell 4 Elements (Global)Ltd Ware Herts England barbara@4elementsglobal.com Posts: 87 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Barbara, For the most part, I think the previous posters have cut Kevin quite a bit of slack. I don't think it's wrong to expect more information about an event that was announced over a year ago, especially an "International". After all the questions, I would think Kevin or his communications staff would attempt to fill us in or at least assuage our doubts. He's said numerous times that seminars and the "big names" are booked, but so far, we don't know what or who. Personally, I don't base decisions on attending a meet by who's coming because I've found that I can learn a lot from just about EVERYBODY. Many people like yourself have to book flights and rooms well in advance; vendors like Brian need info early as well. Virtually nothing has been forthcoming. I asked Laura about the 189.90 fee, and she admitted that Kevin came up with this figure because of the significance of the year 1899. It's certainly more than most meets cost, and I can't help but wonder if this is a strange way to price it.(Hey Kevin, how about $18.99 instead?) Barbara, by all means, get yourself to a Letterhead meet. You won't regret it, and your work will take a visible leap to another level. However, I don't know yet if this is the meet for you (or me) until we see some more info. I have no doubt that Kevin is working very hard to pull this off - we once worked on a vintage fire truck together in Banff until dawn, and the guy is a ball of fire - but until we hear specifics, I don't think the Letterville population is wrong to ask questions and expect more answers.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Come on Guys. Give ole' Kev a break. He's just learning to post. We're doing all we can to get him up to speed and get all the info out to you.
The promised flyer containing more details on this meet is now posted on The Future Events Page. If you look at the Detroit International, you'll see a link called flyer. It's 5 pages long. Here's a direct link.
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Good grief, I've never seen such whining. I remember all the naysaying about Jill's Mars Meet two years ago...all it did was HURT Jill and make her job more difficult...The meet was great. They always are great. It doesn't matter what is being "taught." It will all be there, just like it always is. I was in Boise several years ago and seem to remember the price was higher than $189. and I heard that Noel still lost money.
Just go, have a good time, and stop complaining.
Bruce Deveau
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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I agree with Bruce what a bunch of moaning old gits $189 thats only about £100, £25 a day with free food!! I couldn't eat that cheaply per day anywhere in the UK, if you think thats expensive then come here to the land of the $8 a gallon for Petrol (Gas). Shut Up!!!!
Kev I wish you the best of luck mate and would love to come but cant afford the $1100 (each) flight plus hotels, spending money and the wife can't get time off work so would be unfair to leave her at home.
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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Laura - What a marvelous description of what Letterheads is all about!
I have no doubt that Dave Parr is right about Kevin's intent. Computers move so fast they do not allow the time to learn what the standard apprentice program used to teach. The industry is so intent upon output that we often overlook the finer points of input -- and that is what "Back to the 30s" is all about.
For Letterhead kids like Kevin, growing up at meets, it was commonplace to know the craftsmen who appeared in the magazines and to call them for advice. It still is. THESE "highly skilled craftsmen" are VERY approachable. BY the way, the first paragraph of Bill Diaz May7 post is an excellant description of the roots of the Letterhead movement.
I can remember teenage Kevin saying, "When I host a meet ..." Kevin now wants the teachers he grew up with to teach at "his" meet. Small meets have their place but we are very lucky that dedicated sign industry people still volunteer to host the annual gathering of the clan. For those of you looking for mentors: nowhere can you find a larger number of master craftsmen in oneplace -- teaching -- and learning from -- novices.
By the way -- kudos to Kevin, Laura, and the committee. You did an amazing amount of work in TWO WEEKS. The "Step Back in Time" program will be of particular interest to my husband, historian that he is, and proved a great way to include the interests of the "modern" age.
Checkers is also right. The theme and direction of any meet are ENTIRELY up to the host(s). There are NO rules. I stand corrected. It has become customary to invite everyone to an International but the decision DOES belong to the hosts. Its their party.
Dan, Kevin cannot tell you what you will learn at the 2004 meet. He can tell you his plans -- but not the results. In the electrically charged atmosphere of creative energy, spontaneous demos emerge along side those planned. People learning + teaching, painting + gilding, carving, even simply talking ... All anyone can tell you is that you will miss ... something.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Oops -- the above is Judi, not Kent. When he gets back from the job-site, I will have him teach me how to post in my own name.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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$189 thats only about £100, £25 a day with free food!! I couldn't eat that cheaply per day anywhere in the UK, if you think thats expensive then come here to the land of the $8 a gallon for Petrol (Gas). Shut Up!!!! 
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