posted
Think about this. It's year 2104, and in an antique shop, is a panel someone painted at a letterhead meet. It occurs to me that unlike most of the signs we create, these panels are likely to survive; displayed, then eventually tucked away in an attic or garage, only to be rediscovered by someone not yet born.
What will they think of such a thing, these people who see these things long after we are gone? How will we be described and remembered? Will panels, especially those which are dedicated to a specific letterhead meet, become collector's items? I'd like to think that these will remain as artifacts of a golden age, a time when as artisans, we shared and learned and experimented in both the esoteric and the mundane, from the simplest panted panels to the most elaborate chipped and gilded masterpieces. A time when sign people would travel long distances to gatherings, to talk, paint, enjoy each other's comapny, laugh, paint, swap techniques and ideas, carve, gild, chip, stripe, airbrush, and paint.
Will they know what this was like? Will a panel from a meet in South Carolina in 2004, tell someone 100 years from now, that it was one of dozens, painted at 2am in a room full of people who would rather paint than sleep, who were high on the sheer energy of their own creativity? Will they be able to see, in a faded panel, the fun and laughter and joy and brotherhood that went into creating it? Will they wonder about the life and times of their creators? What will these panels mean to generations to come, to whom we will only be photographs, and memories of children grown old themselves?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is one of those things that makes you go HMMMMM.
I for one Hope that we can pass the reality of what went into the making of these meet panels on to our children and onto our followers so that they can pick these panels up in 2104 and hold them high and be in awe of what we did for sheer enjoyment and to further our abilities in an endeavor that is becoming more and more bastardized by computers and machines and the premonition that ANYONE can do this.
If anyone can do this, why do we have ugly signs, and poor quality workmanship.
Or in the words of a great sign philosopher of the early 21st century's moniker says: "We Fix Ugly Signs"
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Great topic, Cam. I find myself wondering the same things. I personally feel like they are going to become collectible. I also think there are panels out there that are good enough to be displayed together as an exhibition at a fine art museum. There are various art collections that "travel" around the country to various museums for public display. I think the time has come for such an exhibit to be formed from the vast assortment of panel art that is out there, currently being appreciated mainly by signfolks like ourselves. But the average person has no idea of how good some of these panels are. I think if the art world took them seriously, then it would benefit the trade as a whole, since a wider audience would probably generate more requests for good panel art. Maybe people would hang them in their homes. I know, some people already hang signs in there homes, but I think it's usually either an antique or something that looks like one. Imagine someone commissioning a sign person to do a panel for their home ? That would be great.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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....my Prince will come...... Couldn't resist Cam. I love the way you think. It makes me think more!
IMO, the idea of doing a panel for a customer would never float, Jeff. They would tell us what color and what alphabet and just plain take the fun out of it. Your panels are some of the prettiest I've seen, BTW.
One of the things that has always appealed to me about being an artist is that there will be a part of me left behind when I am no longer on this earth. And even tho my panels are sub-par, I still had a darn good time painting them. In a hundred years their meanings will be as undecipherable as the scratchings of cavemen. But I love to think of silly things to paint and give away.
Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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No, they will probably say " why the frig would anyone paint that when they can produce it faster on the Pro Print 4000"? Remember Cam there are plenty today who could give a rats a$$ about what happened 100 years ago in this trade. But it was a cool thought just the same.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Very good Q, Cam, and you will want to read _Motel of the Mysteries_by McCauley. This is a story of archaeologists discovering junk work and regarding it as scared. Yours is about quality work surviving. Which of course it would.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Yeah, Jill, I always liked that song about the gal waiting for her photographs to be developed - "Someday my prints will come..."
I wonder if any real artists painted for the collectibility of their work. You just have to do it for the joy and your own creative expression. I'm with Rob - people in the future will say "They PAINTED this stuff? Ya mean like - freehand? Why?"
Frank Magoo had the idea a few years back of placing sign and pinstriping art in a gallery in Vegas - it didn't fly, though...
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rob may be right. Look at what is valued or remembered with respect to other fields, music, art, and such. There is such chronological arrogance of people who think everything in the present is better and superior. Of course, there are always those that will be around to cherish and appreciate good craftsmanship. Few.
Ebay:2104 I have a antique sign from the turn of the last century signed by a C. Bortz (see attached hologram). Seems to be done with some sort of hand manipulation, before the second great technological revolution. Very quaint and an interesting conversation piece for those who know anything about these old relics. No reserve.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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In the year 2110... The American Sign Museum will have expanded it's facilities to include the works of many of the talented people here in Letterville today. The whole Letterhead history will be looked upon as a grass roots movement that continues to the day raising the standards for artistic and creative people and much of what is considered a lost art will have it's renissance during our times. Our grandchildren will know that craftsmanship and skill are still worth something.
In a less than perfect world..... Tract housing will be made from 8' thick yellow coroplast and there will be bar codes instead of lettering. *sigh*
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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While I use computers and vinyl, I still make GOOD signs. Some are damned good designs that (just happen to!) fit within budgets based on someone who makes $9/hr with a family of four and he wants to 'go out on his own' for a lawn care service, or she as a 'homecleaner'. I love and cater to the small businesses. I do all I can to promote them and their endeavors. Good designs with, albeit, budget vinyl&coro signage. The American Dream, NO?
Other Good Signs are signs that Cam and other true Artisan's can't make. (Let's take a fer instance: your everyday STOP sign.) SOMEONE has to make them and they can't be $200/sq.ft. because taxpayers (US!) pay for them.
So here I stand, very firmly, on the fence. I met the truest of American Craftsmen/Craftswomen at Dixie (All true "Sign Crafters"): the carvers, the stripers, the airbrush painters and hand letterers. And I saw how some of them hated vinyl but USED the current technology in some way.
Yes. In times to come many signs each of us make will live long after we have departed the confines of Earth. And it's exciting to know that those of us that utilize new methods and materials still respect those trades that have gone before us...as I do, and always will! But it's comparable to hand-thrown pottery vs. Corningware...
And you're posting on a computer, dear Cam...and this technology, itself, is but a few electrons poking into the darkness of the world wide web. Technology is not a bad thing. It makes what we do--better. Do you accept artwork files via email? Do you still read books set by hand on hand-made papyrus?
It's the age-old quanundrum: Technology vs. Artisan. Neither will win. IMHO, Neither WANTS to! Both will survive. Both will make The Future Generations ask, "WHAT DID THIS {SIGN}MEAN?"
Frankly? My "STOP" sign will be in the same nuclear fall-out pile of corner City-Junk as your Dentist's sign hand-carved of mahogany and 24K-leaf.
And "They" will ask and ask AGAIN, and confer and laugh at the SAME question..."What did THIS mean?" I mean, we STILL haven't figured out Egyptian's Pyramids or how they made them!!
Only what we do -- as SIGN MAKERS making GOOD signs say GOOD things -- will give Them a clue as to the 'standard' sign and the true Art of a Sign. We all belong in a museum, of some type.
What's to say that the scrap of a BMW next to the remanants of Pacer won't cause the same questions...they had, and served, the SAME purpose...Human Kind.
Hmmmmmm.
*hugs* Cam.
~K
-------------------- Karen Wunch (kwunch on chat) A2Z SIGNS in Buford, GA 678.714.1965 ---------------- "Believe there is a great power silently working all things for good, behave yourself and never mind the rest." ~~Beatrice Potter Posts: 126 | From: Buford Georgia | Registered: Jan 2003
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.....but the truly horrid thought here is that vynull on coro just may outlive the hand-carved mahogany due to it being an unnatural substrate! J.
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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these are all very good points to be considered.
I wish there was such thing as time travel so I could go ahead to 2104 to see what happens to life as we know it today and of course to see what my panels were worth on ebay.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yeah, Jill. I didn't say that, but I'm also 'afeared' for it...imagine thousands of coro signs outliving one mahogany sign?
OMG.
Guess us vinyl&coro-Queens will just have to leave *hoots* coro-testaments to the awesomeness of carvers?
And, Harris? You'll live at least 'till 2012. You can bid on your OWN antique signs, then!
ONLY THE GOOD DIE, YOUNG, dear Sir.
*LMFAO*
-------------------- Karen Wunch (kwunch on chat) A2Z SIGNS in Buford, GA 678.714.1965 ---------------- "Believe there is a great power silently working all things for good, behave yourself and never mind the rest." ~~Beatrice Potter Posts: 126 | From: Buford Georgia | Registered: Jan 2003
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In 2104 signs will have long been outlawed and replaced by wireless advertising beamed directly to your cpu implant. You will be networked to the world and will be able to instantly call up any images or information that you need, just by thinking about it.
The quaint concept of hand painting will only be discussed in history books.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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..."But what makes you think your panels will last 100 years?"
Theres no lead in paint any more...
Don't do it on MDO... cause that only lasts twelve years. (if your lucky)
Sentra will become brittle, and crumble into a million pieces...
Don't use vinyl, eight years for that stuff...
Glass? It could brake...
Plex is a great substraight, but what are you gonna put on it?
Don't even think of coroplast, banners, masonite, or any of the common substraights normally used.
I've done alot of restoration of antique signs from the 1860s to the 1900s. They all have one thing in common; either the substraight is bad, or the material they put on the substraight is going bad.
There have been only a couple old signs where the substraight is not effected. Glass and carved wood will stand the test of time. The best medium is gold leaf.
-Rich
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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Oh boy...this one is gonna get good (or ugly depending upon your perspective)...I think I'll just sit back and watch it unfold.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yes I am the Coro Queen. But nothing (well almost nothing) beats the thrill of being at a meet, as Cam so beautifully described, late, the smell of 1-Shot permeating everything, when the paint flows like warm honey and the ideas for panels are popping into my head. I love my panels. They are everywhere here. I even have one from Harris! My kids have panels in their rooms. They know their value. Hopefully they will treasure my panels as I do. Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Cam . . . . . I'm leaving town for a while . . . . I simply can NOT take any more of your deep-thinking, melancholy moods that you have yet again thrust upon me.
I will be back in a few days to see if you are out of this incredibley artsy funk you have put me in . . . . .
Luv. S
lol
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Yes Lotti, COCKROACHES & COROPLAST: the real survivors!
Maybe what will be extinct is free enterprise, voting, or those kind of things whereby people actually have choices to make. Hmmmm. (I'm trying to add a new twist to the thread for the likes of Kimberly and Bob.)
Maybe I'm up too late, but I've just got this bad streak that makes me want to do something wierd on a panel so they can scratch thier heads and try to figure it out. Think of it, we could have 'em believing all sorts of wierd stuff. Call it a new form of "revisionist history".
They might even look at some of my stuff and say: "Man this guy was DEEP, he's so hard to figure out. Like I said, we could have 'em believing all sorts of stuff.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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The only signs around here that I can guarantee you will still be here in 100 years (nuclear annihilation not withstanding) are the sandblasted granite ones. There are some very ornate ones around here and I think they take the cake for durability.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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As usual, this beautiful thread has been hijacked by the old, tired, in-the-throes-of-rigor-mortis computer vs. handjob debate.
It was about panels. Cam said they might last longer than a sign because of the way we treat them and I think he's right.
And the very nicest thing about a panel is that it is FREE. Not for a customer, to a friend. Given away as a token and memento of a special moment. Yet they are PRICELESS.
So put that in your pipe and smoke it. And let our ancestors wonder what they mean. Maybe they will be 4th generation Letterheads. You never know.
Love...Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Thanks, Jill. One of the other things I wonder about, when I read some of these replies, is the state of reading comprehension among folks on this board, and the unwavering ability of some folks to snipe at one another over nothing.
Here's a suggestion. Go read my original post again. Slowly. Let it sink in. Then, if you can still read something into it that ****es you off or sounds like I'm trying to dis anybody, tell me all about it at Mayhem.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I had a hot cup of that at McDonald's and it spilled in my lap......sued them for $10,000,000 dollars! Just teasin'.
Great topic Cam. Although all my stuff is digital or vinyl....I have some illustrations/oil painting portraits I did early on: One of the owner/founder (deceased at the time of the commission) of a multimillion dollar company I worked for out of college, and then one of his son and wife after they took over the company (they are quite elderly now) one I did of Clark Gable and Scarlet O'hara from Gone w/the Wind, and a bunch of miscellaneous pencils....
I wonder what will become of these...and I can't wait to have time to do what I'm really interested in as a hobby....portrait paintings.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I've thought about this a lot Cam and it seems to me when the panels start coming out of the attics and basements and start showing up in auctions , one of the best things about these panels is nearly everyone signs them.
As the collectors start unfolding the mysteries of this movement and realize they can actually put them to one person or another the panels will become incredible collectables.Tho they will probably call them "another fine example of American folk art from the turn of the 21st century"
Just imagine...someone saying to another..." I'll trade a Mike Lavalle for Mike Jackson" or "do you have any Dave Hightowers? Or... "I once had a Cam Bortz and traded it for a Joey Madden".
Then Imagine the guy that trips over a Panel for a pinhead jam where everyone participated on a panel and at the bottom are all the signatures...Joey Hutson..."Lit toot"...Mike Lavalle...Fred Self..."Silly Jilly"...Judy Pate...Bob Padilla...Alton Gilespie...and suddenly the discover all these people were in the same room together...why I might even have my name on one or two of these.
Can you imagine what a tremndous legacy that is being left here.
You gotta love it!
Put all this with the American Sign Museum as a credible source of information on all these people along with all the Archival information stored in this site and there is truly a treasure here beyond anyones wildest dreams.
Yeah ...ya gotta love it!
[ April 20, 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Cam, your question is exactly WHY I got into this business. After creating ads for 25 years, I was diagnosed with pretty serious cancer. I thought about what I'd be leaving behind (if I wasn't able to beat it, that is) and realized there would be very little if any physical, tangible stuff. Nothing that would endure. So I started making signs. And I hope these signs are up and being used 50 years from now. Maybe a grandchild of mine could point out to his or her child and say "Your Great Grandfather made that sign."
Good post. See you at Mass Mayhem.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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QUICK!!! Name the last 15 Presidents of the United States.....
I can't do it. Striving to leave a mark on society by aspiring to some form of greatness is a futile prospect.
Most people who achieve what society feels is the ultimate contribution, whether it be political or sports milestones, are generally forgotten after just a few short generations....
Creating works of art that are given to family members is perhaps the best way of creating some form of living memorial of your existence, as they get passed down from one generation to the next.
But with all legendary stories, the details of the story itself become murky before long till the story behind the art is distilled down to, "Your great great great Uncle Joe did this". The personality is stripped away from the art piece or event.
With art, a great deal of the fascination is the story of the artist as it relates to the artwork. It would be great to keep a personal journal of your life, thoughts, struggles and triumphs in written form....so that someday when someone picks up that cherished panel....they can say, "Good 'ol Cam did this back in 2004, he was a darn good artist and according to his journal, he got a special satisfaction out of.....and was inspired by......and a big turning point in the style of his work came when........"
Family is where it's at in my opinion. I think most other people wouldn't appreciate the efforts.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ruined my day Cam... made me think...ask Joey, it's not all that easy a chore somedays.
I've had a dream for over 10 years as Mike related to, and that is to organize and develop a gallery of sign-writers/pinstripers and their work, into a generation-ran museum, relying only on door profits to stay afloat. Alas, to big a dream to become reality. That said, I truely believe that in future, barring abolishment of metal, that panels of today will survive to be enjoyed and marveled over for ages to come. Of course, metal isn't the only medium we work with, I have some very interesting river-rock cars and trucks done by a very creative artist who has since passed. Barring time,weather and wind, these should be around for some time too.
I for one, like idea of living thru your art for years to come after I pass, my kids are excited about room in their house I'm starting to commerate my career. It will be full of all panels I've collected and many signed event t-shirts and other such related items, magazine articles and etc. Some will of course become very valuable and I pray my kids have the fortitude to stick with it and not cave into selling off anything. Sort of what Ilene has done for Ed at her home in Utah. A sight to be seen, trust me. See it if possible, hell of a tribute to a great man.
Good post Cam, very thought provoking, we all have to deal with subject at some point in our lifes and this is one way to pass on to others our history. I've been asked on numerous occasions to write my story, which is long and somewhat colorful, but can't imagine someone at that time still reading, so, I advocate collecting hard items that can't be refuted.
My two cents, ya, I know, it's worth about 1/4 penny now, thank you Geo. Bush....
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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I wonder if the 22nd century will have a Vinylheads or Coroheads movement to figure out how things were done in our day?
Seriously, there will always be an appreciation for craftsmanship. How many today are dissecting Rawson & Evans’ and Strongs’ work? A century from now, while the full atmosphere of the time those panels were brought into existence could not be known, I'm sure the quality and workmanship will be esteemed.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just teasin'.
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