posted
Hiya 'heads, I was wondering if any of you, in a northern climate, use a tankless or instant water heater for your pottable water? I've read up on them and they seem to be worth the investment, but, trying to find a local plumber with knowledge is difficult to say the least. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I love'm Brian. What really amazes me is when ya mention them, people don't know crap about something thats been used in hotels etc for decades. Why do ya think that some places have hot water almost immediately and other places ya wait for the water to run through the pipes. You'll see more of these tankless units as persons want extra space in their homes without the clutter of some dumb water tank which looks like crap, always on and still never enough hot water
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I kinda looked at one a couple weeks ago at Lowes. Looks pretty cool....if your water is hard I would deffinately want a softner. It wouldn't take long here for it to clog up without one.
Instead...I just bought a new 52 gal. with a clean-out. It's another cover at the bottom, and you can take off and actually put your hand in there to clean it out.
I bought a softener also...from sears.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
posted
Yer right Joey. I called quite a few different plumbers and they sounded like I was talking about something with three heads! Apparently, the technology is quite common everywhere except in the United States. Tony, Are you on a well or do you have city water? The clean out idea is something new to me. It sounds like it will have you a lot of headaches. I was hoping someone can come up with the specifics on a brand and model they bought. From what I read, your climate can make a big difference. Plus, I know they're limited with how much they can raise the water temperature and how much water can flow through them without a major drop in temperature. Other headaches that will influence my purchase are gas vs. electric, how do they vent, warranty, and maintenance. Things you normally don't have to worry about when you go with the same old thing.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brian, I did some looking into them last winter and considered putting one in while doing my renovations thus allowing me to get rid of my chimney. the one i was looking at used one of thoe PVC pipes for an exhaust vent and its run on natural gas. I was planning to install it myself but didnt make the move yet because I just couldnt afford to make all the changes I wanted to make at that time. I do intend to install one of those heaters in the next two years along with a super efficient(pvc exhaust) furnace for my hot water heating system. this will allow me to remove the chimney and close the roof to prevent any leaks in the roof.
Keep me up to date as to what you end up doing, and I will let ya know how I make out when I finaly make my decision.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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My first house was on a well...the first six months I replaced the bottom element 6 times. I got a water softener, lived there about 8 more years and no problem after that.
Now I'm on county water and it's just about as bad as the well was. I just threw away two 40 gallons and installed the 52 and the softener. Took me about 4 hours. Hopefully no more problems.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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My wife and looked at them Extensively and just about bought one but the main reason we didn't is the the less expensive ones will only heat your water about 50 or 60 degrees more then the regular temp of you tap water so in colder ares you water would not get hot enough without a pre-heater which cost another few hundred dollars. Kinda hard to recoup that cost. Over $1000 while our standard 50 gal tank heater only cost us $150. Self installed. Even one of my Plumbing Clients told me it wouldn't be cost effective unless we wrapped the pipes and stuff as we didn't have enough room to put by the bathroom. He did say they work great in warmer areas though mainly down south.
[ April 07, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: William DeBekker ]
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http://www.cechot.com/ look here also home depot sells them...it is the way to go. i got a 1961 rheem gas water heater in this house....and when it dies..iam getting a tankless one they come in gas/electric models. with only the 2 of us here....it should never have a problem
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I used one of these Titan heaters from Lowes for about 3 years of living in my shop.. 5 minutes heats enough for one shower, then turn it off till tomorrow... no wasted energy.
I recently got one of these Paloma propane hot water heaters for the shop. Propane doesn't emit much toxic fumes when it burns, but I will be venting what little it does emit. I've owned several of these & used them in the many rustic cabins over the years. Very popular among the off-the-grid folks out this way.
posted
On the subject of water heaters ... I'm very seriously looking at installing a solar water heater here. No lack of sunny days down here
I had one in the house I rented before buying this place. Only had to use the Electric element overide a couple times during that winter. Instant Hot water to burn! Cut my electricity bill in half!
Cost here is couple grand plus install but the state government is offering a $700 rebate off your power bill if you buy one.
Power costs are rising here, so I figure it would pay itself off in under two years. Maybe I should install solar power panels too
posted
go for it Jon... you rwally can't go wrong IMO. Hawaii offers tax incentives to go Solar & when I get caught up on some of the other home improvement projects, that will be on the list for sure... lots of solar power available here too.
For those of us in sun-drenched climates solar is definitely a good option, especially the way the electric rates around here are jumping. I'm starting to get tired of depending on these other companies to provide utilities.
You might need a generator to run shop tools though, a solar system with enough juice for that kinda stuff isn't cost effective yet, or at least not in my neck of the desert.
I'm not sure if Arizona offers any incentives to people switching to solar. I know they got burned with the natural gas powered vehicles. The state offered something like a 50% payback to people who bought vehicles that could run on natural gas (CNG). The problem is the vehicles were setup so they could use BOTH CNG and gasoline. Since CNG isnt available at every gas station like gasoline is, nobody used the CNG but they still got their payback.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Steve just a reminder, when you make a mistake posting, your option is to go back and edit the post instead of adding more posts. Theres an edit thingie top right hand side of your post, its shows a pencil and paper, this is where you can edit your original post.
Hope this helps.
Now back to the tankless water heaters which have worked well for me in my N.Y. home where the weather was freezing but the showers were hot. Have used them many years.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I put an under sink electric model in my shop. With my hard well water it was not working properly within a year.
It senses the drop in water pressure when you turn on the faucet. The hard water corroded the plunger that senses the pressure and turns on the electric, so it operated very slowly. So it would take about 3 to 5 minutes to get hot water. Then when I shut off the faucet, it would take another 3 to 5 minutes for it to shut off, so the element was still on which would over heat the water and trip the high limit safety switch. I'm putting in a tank this summer.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5400 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I haven't taken the time to read the other replies, so I may be repeating someone here.
I actually saw one today at a house that I'm doing some artwork for. (advertising art for the builder) They had a Takagi Tankless Gas water heater. VERY cool!
The builder told me they were great, also adviced staying away from the electric ones. Gas ones were best.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
We've been using Paloma's for twenty five years. There are some better ones now. Look for all stainless tubes and pilotless ignition and an easily accessible drain.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Greatest thing since sliced bread run off gas heats straight away can control the output temperature stops kids burning themselves have used them different houses for years highly recomend them only heats water as needed
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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We installed tankless coils on our boiler for domestic hot water about 15 years ago. They worked well for about 2 weeks then got worse and worse as they clogged up with lime. I had to pump acid through the system every 6 months to remove the lime that clogged everything up.
As I recall, hard water has calcium carbonate dissolved in it which is less soluble in hot water than in cold water. When you heat up the water it drops out and coats everything. Thats why heating elements burn up in hot water tanks. They get an insulating coat of lime causing them to run hot.
Finally I had to plumb in a new system for hot water using a loop off the boiler running through a water tank. It has worked perfectly for years with oil fire in the summer and wood fire in the winter.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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Next door neighbor has one in his 1920's two story with basement. Mounted outside, runs heat and tap water. After one year he says it's the best thing he's ever done. cur electric bills, instant heat and water. runs of nat gas.
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Paloma's have a constant setting on the burner...on or off. The temperature is adjusted by restricting flow, thereby exposing the water to the flame longer. The small units will supply one faucet at a time. They run a shower fine, but take a long time to fill a tub. The larger units supply more water, but I think that with all of them, your habits might require some adjusting too.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have had a Bosch AquaStar tankless heater for about 4 years now. We are in MN, in winter the water temp is just right for a good hot shower, you have to turn the water heat down a little in the summer or it is too hot. You can take a shower as long as you want, you never run out of hot water! Make sure you have good water pressure in your house, as the hot water will lose a little bit of pressure going thru the coils. It also freed up a lot of room in the basement!
I live in a ranch style home and our water heater is in the center of the basement. When I turned on the hot water tap in the Kitchen, it took 1 minute and 52 seconds to reach the sink. Here is what I did to remedy the situation.
In the basement, I located the hot water pipe directly under the kitchen which was at the end of the hot water run. I then tapped into the end and ran a length of pipe BACK TO my hot water heater to form a LOOP. I then connected this return loop to the BOTTOM of the hot water heater where the clean out spicket is.
The hot water will actually rotate through the loop by itself and you will always have hot water available almost instantaneously. I believe that proper term for this action is CONVECTION.
You will need to remove the clean out spicket and add a "T" connector to it so the return loop has something to attach to.
Now when I turn on the hot water in the kitchen, it takes 5 seconds to get to the tap. Let me know if you need more info.
-------------------- Barry Jenicek Signs by Unique St. Louis, MO Posts: 34 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2001
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Thanks for the replies pople. I didn't expect this much of a response! Anyway, here's what I learned. Tankless heaters are expensive! And, like William said, unless you use a lot of hot water, they're really not worth the investment. Our annual cost to heat our water with gas is about $180. I figured this out by taking our summer gas bills, June through September, and averaging them out. If a tankless heater was to save us 75% of that cost, we would save about $135 a year. Assuming I can get one installed for around $1600, it would take me about 7 years to break even and from the 8th year on, I could start saving money. Looking at the big picture, that wouldn't be a bad long term investment. However, I discovered that the township requires a permit and that you to have a licenced plumber install the heater. The problem there is the one plumber that gave me a quote wanted to charge $4300! I could save about $700 if I rerouted the gas and water lines to an outside wall and he did the rest. Unless I can be convinced otherwise in the next few days, a tankless water heater is not in my future.
Cheers,
Checkers
p.s. It's time for a new home computer too. It took me 3 tries to post this message. On the first 2 tries, I locked up and had to reboot
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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