posted
Going over some specs for a tender for local municipality, I'm looking over last years winning bid for reference. One item in particular just blew me away.. See how you would price it and I'll post the tender price later... quantity was 5 unique signs.
4'x8'x1/8" solid aluminum, full reflective, white lettering on green background, five lines of text
posted
is the whole background reflective or just the letters? if i were pricing it just for the letters being reflective 5 lines of copy...unique??? ummm...well i guess i might say $525 ea.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
What's unique about it Mike? but going by what you are saying I'd say it's worth 600-700 bukaroos, The only thing I find with tenders is that some suppliers will put lettering on there smaller than what it should be, to save on cost.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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$344.63 (CDN) ea - approx $240.00 US .. even less at last years exchange rate...
Tender was won by one of Neil's competitors in St. John's and since the tender was F.O.B. Labrador they paid freight from St. John's to here (a 36 hour drive).
posted
How the hell he do it? Did he do it cheap to get his foot into the door? Thinking he would get loyalty?
Stolen materials??? Recycled aluminum sheets? Did he buy the sheets from a highway department employee? Did he buy the blanks already treated with reflective material? Man this slays me..
A local dude us making super heavy duty banners here for just about $5 bux a sq ft. But he uses the recycled and scrapped billboard flex panels.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Retro reflective or engineer grade, do the specs specify 3M? Transparent ink?-Transparent Film?-or will they actually let you stick viinyl on vinyl, if so, then retroreflective means 2 rolls, that is a chunk of change, it still is with engineer grade.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I've seen the signs ... 1/8th aluminum and looks like engineering grade white reflective silkscreened translucent green, AND A CLEARCOAT... they didn't stint on letter height... Even w/silkscreening I've got no idea how they priced the job, but it's there as a matter of public record.
I just submitted a tender for this years signs (no 4x8's) and if I get it I'll make only ~4k gross margin on ~8k of materials, labour not incl...
I'm not holding my breath on this one, I more than likely won't get it if pricing is like last year, and if I do get it, it still a low margin job.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
The jackass that did that job at that price is already an idiot - he left thousands of dollars on the table.
Don't get mad at these nitwits. The money they don't make, they don't get to spend. The endless hours chasing their tails, working til 2am every night, prevents them from learning anything new, and eventually they go away to flip burgers or park cars or get government jobs and become municipal officials who sign bid agreements like the this one....
On second thought, anyone that stupid should be shot on sight, before they manage to reproduce or get elected.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
He probably won't be bidding this year, he's out of business, right?
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Its prob a division of United rentals. They're doing signs for unbelieveale low prices.. just talked to a owner of a campground last night. He had them make 2 4x5 and 3 18x24 .080 alum Brown Refl background and refl white lettering.. Total price $300 Delevered to DOT for instalation.. The company is in Wyoming...
posted
Don't I feel just silly. I just got a purchase order today for (20) 22"x40" .040 aluminum with white reflective / two colors copy for $3,000.00 and (20) 20" X 27" same specs for $2,000.00 What am I doing wrong here? I should be out playing golf!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Guys I tell you, there are people here in St. John's that truly don't have a clue, "NOT A CLUE". This is what I'm dealing with everyday of the week, I don't know how I make it in this Business with this type of Intelligence competing with me... It's also one of the reasons why I don't even bother bidding on Government work, you know the Provincial Government has their own Sign Shop here in St. John's, and I've actually lost work to them, Just Imagine, the Government competing with me. Sometimes I have a hard time believing what you guys in the states can charge for your work, If I could get that kind of Bux, I'd be a very rich man. More Power to you, that's what I say.
Mike who did the signs last year? You said that they were screen printed, was it one of the franchises? They have a very good screen printer hired on at their place, and I know that sometimes they do work at an incredibly low price. There's a new company that started up a couple of years ago, and you would'nt believe how cheap these guys are.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I don't know who did it Neil, just that they were done in St. John's ... might well have been Provincial sign shop, do they sell to municipalities? If so I might have known and saved the time I took to work up a bid for this year.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Yes Mike they do sell to municipalities, I've lost work to them on a number of occasions. I guess when you have the buying power that they do, you can cut the little guys throat. Pretty bad when you are in direct competition with the government is'nt it. Having said all that, they are'nt that bad, it's just that I did come across them a few times when pricing work.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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This kind of work goes cheaply because ANYBODY can do it. Forget about it!
Focus on developing your market and let the twerps battle it out over the low margin stuff.
Spend some time and effort thinking about how you can create demand for your products & services and charge accordingly. It CAN be done...and it beats complaining.
OK...Give me five minutes to find my flame-proof suit and lay it on me.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Not everyone lives in handcarved county or flame job city. Not every job is custom style work. Some of us depend on the not so glamorous work to pay our bills while also doing some of the custom work. Get Real!!!
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Robert Larkham: Not everyone lives in handcarved county or flame job city. Not every job is custom style work. Some of us depend on the not so glamorous work to pay our bills while also doing some of the custom work. Get Real!!!
I agree that not all markets out there can support some of the signs that we'd all love to be doing, namely the "Top Buck" ones. Where I am, in Southern Alberta, there doesn't really seem to be an abundance of elegant signs out here. I've taken samples out to see clients, and watched their faces light up when they see the panels, but when they ask the price tag, always seem to go the cheaper route.When one does come up, I jump at the chance just to keep fresh with my skills. I never drop the price to any ridiculous point, as I do believe quality should be paid for.
I'd say over 80% of our income comes from vinyl, but I do agree that you can find a "niche" as John has said. We provide the highest quality of work, and do things with vinyl that some of the other shops just aren't capable of. It basically all stems from our designs, thus giving us a decent reputation with our clients.
I'll give you an example, even though it's a vinyl job, we've been hired, (quietly- and we're not to bring our company vans to the job) to do up the store-front of one of the other local sign-shops. They're paying full price for us to re-design their companys logo, cut and install the vinyl at their shop. They've actually been in this city longer than we have.
So even though this is just another vinyl job, we've still managed to stay busy and keep our prices where they should be.
Just my 2cents..
Kevin.
-------------------- Kevin Alan The Sign Shop Lethbridge Alberta thesignshop@shaw.ca
posted
Rob I can appreciate your frustration but its just not true. You can sell premium work if you want to. I dont even try to push vinyl anymore. Why bother when everyone else is giving it away.
I do not live in the land of carved signs nor money a plenty. I have worked hard to create a market for my type of work. I do work that no one else does so I've thus illiminated the competition.
I'm sorry you were'nt able to make it work but I for one am proof that you don't have to go work for someone else.
I realize that sometimes its completely out of your hands and that maybe the area you are in will never work. But dont be so quick to put us all in the same boat...
I can go on and on about my past ups and downs and it might help some but call me stupid, I stayed with this business through the hard times and now its getting better....
This is not meant as a slam but rather a different point of view.
See ya
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hey Bob, In my area most of the guys who are your age who started hand painting and carving had to get into big commercial work with booms and 10-15 employees. There are not to many one man bands left who make enough to do it full time. I don't dought thet there are some of you out there in areas where you are making good livings, but your area may not be the same as mine. I have people calling getting bids on $100 signs. Not just here and there but every other job is like this. It get old after a while. I do get high end jobs as I have two hand carved jobs going right now but they are few and far between. I too am sorry things have not worked out. I will continue to work full time elsewhere. I will make an honest living and be happy. I hold no ill feelings for any of you. You are the people who share a passion as I do. I will always be a sign painter, I will always help others who need my help and desire the things I have come to love in this industry.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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The price out of the Sign Blue Book would be $761.00 for one sign with the option of giving a 7% discount for the quantity of 5 signs of the same type with different layouts.
-------------------- Brian Hinkle Hincor/Sign Blue Book Mesa, Arizona Posts: 13 | From: Mesa, Arizona | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Well I agree with everyone, to a point, But I agree with Rob on the fact that if you think that the Throat Cutters are going to go out of business then You're living in a dream world. Just this week I lost a Job to a Very Good Sign Company on 2 8FTX14FT mdo Signs, now how much do you think that they went for... would you believe that they went for $650.00 each? This company has been in business for over 30 years, I don't think they are going to go anywhere anytime soon.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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One way of looking at this most recent example you've offered is that the customer didn't see any (or perhaps enough) added value in buying the signs from you. I'm not suggesting that you don't offer better value...only that the customer didn't see it.
What do you think went wrong?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Well Jon the customer or one of, did say that he wants to buy from me, but his Partner is the Penney Pincher, Now I did lie a little and say that I lost this Job, but I don't think that's entirely true as of yet, I could get this if I sharpened my Pencil, but I don't think I can get that Kind of a point on it. lol. Any Way I'd rather go "Home Hungry and Broke".... than go home "Tired Hungry and Broke."
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
LOL. Neil, I love that mantra! No sense busting your butt on a job if you're not making any money on it - let the other guy do it while you're at the golf course!
posted
How much would any of you charge for a 4'x60' aluminum sign (bent on 1" frame) installed. Red letters 21" high. Two inch black border around the entire sign. Show me some prices and I will tell the rest of the story.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Yes Rob I do see your way, Sometimes I wonder if I would be better off working at another job myself and doing signs on the side... I'd probably make more money for myself, but.....I have 8 people working here now and so I believe I can't give up, Afterall we are really busy,so Lets "Keep Positive".
Jon what would you do? To convince the customer of added value? This customer came to me with his design, which by the way is Quite nice, His sister did it..... but she's a graphic artist working for a company in...... Shudder Shudder.... ..Toronto. So the design was finalized and she emailed a perfect file. There was not much more I could do, I just told him that I can't do it for that price, and he's trying to figure out why not. So I'll let him figure some more.
He know's my work, he's very familiar with it, even praised it up, but when it comes down to dollars, you can't win them all. Oh well.
Thank God not every Customer is like this, I upsell my work all the time By the way, I'm always educating the customer about "Added Value" and It works most of the time. And the customers are always happy... Why do you think My Edge is always Humming away. So yes I agree with you on the Added Value Approach.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Let me begin my response by noting that my first reply in this discussion shared your "I'd rather go home hungry and broke..." sentiments.
Government tenders aside*, I'm never too quick to write off a sale (or potentially: a customer) without having first made the attempt to qualify and quantify the opportunities I have with them.
For example:
You could easily look at this one MDO job in isolation and say "I don't need it that bad"...
But how much business is this customer potentially worth to you on an annual basis?
What about on a "lifetime" basis?
Perhaps this job has some strategic importance...
If so "letting it ride" might not be the best strategy.
If the competitor who underbid you gets this job, do his/her opportunities for getting other jobs from this client improve?
If they do, is it a fair assumption that your future opportunities may be adversely affected?
One of the first tenets of any successful marketing strategy is "Never underestimate your competition".
In other words, it is smart to assume that they can buy the same materials as you, and provide equally good service and product quality.
At that point, where is the added value in doing business with Signs 1st?
This is where your marketing strategy needs to come into play. (You might know one or two people who could help you take a strategic approach to your marketing by the way. )
In the case of this MDO job, maybe (just maybe - I don't claim to know enough about the specifics to be able to provide any real guidance) -- maybe the design looks great...
How suitable is it for the intended application?
How likely is it likely to achieve the desired results?
If these are highway signs(?), is the type big enough for the viewing distance? Is the message clear enough that it will have an impact when people are driving by at the speed limit?
If not...
How could you incorporate the elements of his sister's design into a layout that would be more effective in meeting the client's communications objectives?
Make sense?
*BTW if you decide you want to win government business it has to become a mission and requires a whole different set of strategies to be effective...but that is a whole other topic of discussion altogether.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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But we must share the same Brain waves or something similar, no offence. lol, because that is the way I handle all of my customers, I treat every one like it may be my last.
If I feel that a layout is lacking, no matter who done it, I put on my Kid Gloves and tell the customer that maybe I can improve the design. I usually have a very receptive response to this.
This Design was Fine, as is, it really was, could I have improved it? Maybe, But he was firm on the design.
But to make a long story short, I quoted my price and stuck to it, and guess what? I got the job. I never cut my own throat in the process either. Go Figure.
Jon thanks for the time you put into this discussion It's appreciated.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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