posted
What a great thread. After reading through it I am glad I never went into my own business as I have a poor head for money. The job I have lets me play at being a sign maker, play in the wood shop I have, and play at electronic repair. It is a great job as no two days are the same. I make 34,000 a year, 4 weeks vacation, have two months sick leave if something happens, great medical and a good retirement plan, only 1625 more days to go.
The only thing I don't get to do is go to letterhead meets, something I hope to change. I do envy those of you that work on great signs, something I will never get to do.
-------------------- Raymond Quick Ye Thicker Than Thou Sign and Repair Shoppe Olympic College, 1600 Chester Ave Bremerton, WA 98337 rquick@oc.ctc.edu Posts: 50 | From: Bremerton Washington | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mark, $125 an hour may not be as tongue-in-cheek as you think!! You can make as much money as one person with 2 arms, 2 legs can. But this I know, only you can determine if your willing to work that hard.
I have busted my tail since I was a kid. I left home when I was 16. I did not finish school and I made a lotta poor choices. I got in this business in 1988 (after working for 2 years in a predominantly electric sign shop), because the Lord gave me artistic talent and because of His grace alone. I scrounged and cleaned houses, raked yards and delivered USA Today. I had to get a second job like that every winter. My big girl's Dad deserted us, but I just kept buildin' this business. I started out in a 10x16. I worked out'a that 'til 2000. I now have a 30x40.
For several years I could not, then would not show a profit because I thought I would have to pay in a lotta taxes. For the last 10 years I've shown a profit and though I have to pay in state taxes up to $400, I get EIC back. I started out grossin' $9,000 a year and showed a loss, lol. I only gross about $38,000, but most of it is now profit. My next goal is to get a plotter and put this computer to work for me!!
I put my oldest daughter thru 6 years of private school, graduation, and 1 1/2 years of college and payed for her wedding. I gave her my blazer and made her car note as long as she was in school, as well as gettin' her this 'puter, while I drove an' old '78 pick-up for a work truck. We never got any child-support . . .it was all signs. I have paid off 3 90-day notes and 4 or 5 2 year notes.
My youngest daughter has made it to 9 years old. I hope to home school her. I reckon we will both live to get her married too. Her dad is unavailable as well, but 'til she was about 6 I had him workin' for me puttin' up signs to work out his child-support
I have worked the most insane hours and I have worked too cheap. I have painted signs to prove to some "man" that I can. I have walked away from very few jobs on acount'a that same silly pride as well as need of work..
I have always approached people in a business like manner and I have used single-working mother status much the same way as a man who says "I gotta family to feed".
Mark, I am drivin' an old '93 1500 chevy king-cab now, with 295,000 miles on it. But it runs like a sewin' machine I gotta shop full of hand & power tools, a compressor, all paid for. Like James, I HATE debt. If I can't pay for it right-out, I reckon I can't get it.
I look at all the people on some of my job sites drivin' brand new trucks. I know what kind'a fine house they live in. They gotta pontoon boat and they are on the river every sat. I also see the worried, stressed look on their faces during the week. I know some of 'em gotta truck note about $500 a month, as well as outrageous things they "have to have". Most people who look like they are "makin' it" are simply not living within their means.
I really believe that the Lord gave me this gift and therefore it is mandantory that I use it as wisely as possible. Not to rob people but to get what the in-demand work is truly worth. Then I can give back to Him not only financially but in time as well.
Don't give up on your business after only one year. As someone said, it is not unusual to not show a profit for a coupl'a years. I wish I had had all this information and wonderful people to connect with from the beginning!! I would have already realized the self-confidence and value of the service and product and I would be futher ahead now.
Anyway, ain't nobody ever drowned in their own sweat! Contrary to some of today's youth, hard work will NOT kill you!!
posted
Fantastic ideas everyone, I just had someone from the VILLE e-mail about this same topic, maybe this post influnced him, anyway I looked at his web page and noticed as many of you have said that he had a "shotgun approach to the sign business" Colonel Sanders said it ----do one thing and do it best-----
I pinstripe because I can, and grew to love it, I really wanted to be a sign painter even in High School, because I loved the way fonts came together and transformed a plain board into a wonderful work of art.
However I have a wife and three children, I pay close to $700.00 a month for health insurance, and have helped two of my children thru college to the tune of another $700.00 a month. I personally couldn't see a way to make enough to pay those kinds of bills plus a mortage and everthing else that comes from living in the comffy suburbs, doing signs. Yet here I am billing $80-90.00 an hour for Pinstriping, and I don't have a shop and the overhead that goes with it. Like Dan S., I found what few others were doing and I learned to charge for my time, however as in anything else there is the ---Law of deminishing returns, if you charge a thousand dollars each, how many can afford you? If you charge ten dollars you have a much larger base, somewhere in the middle of cost and profit is a place where the price stops the customer from purchasing your product, there is a pinstriper in my area raised his prices until he basically priced himself out of the pinstriping business.
If you love what you do all else will take care of itself, If you work for money you will not last long doing so, while all else falls apart around you.
Just my 2cents worth
DeWayne Connot
-------------------- DeWayne Connot DOA Flatliners Pinstriping To Die For! Northwales, Pa dconnot@verizon.net Posts: 28 | From: Northwales, PA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just to be clear, I don't hate debt. Actually, I think there are those that have used debt carefully to get equipment they need to better provide for themselves. Living with zero debt is a "game" that requires alot of attention. It's sorta like DeWayne's reply above where there's a point where the efficiency falls off and you'd better be in it for some other reason.
The way I see it, in this time and this place, debt is THE LIE that hides a bad economy. I don't care if the Reaganites or the Clintonites, or even the Bu****es are saying the economy is great, I think otherwise.
You drive down the road, you see new houses, each one has two shiny SUV's parked out front. But my guess is that they're all "upside-down". That is, if you took everything they have, (assets) and sold it, it wouldn't be anywhere near what they still owe (liabilities).
That's what I mean by the lie. Things look OK, but they're not. Man, if you could only for one minute see some of these modern developements through 19th century eyes. Just flat out incredible. But for all of it what do we have?
The way I figure it, in a place this advanced, a person ought to be able to work 4 days a week, and live comfortably. 5 days a week, you'd be on your way to wealth. But the diseases, scams, tort corruption, overt and hidden taxes all make that imposible.
I'm wondering if we'll come to what I call the awakening. I don't want to be another doom and gloomer, so let's just say that it happens gradually. The way I see it, we're running out of wiggle room. Up 'till now, there has always been something more that can be stretched to keep this veneer propped up. I would say that 3 categories have been involved, but they're about maxed out. The first is debt. you can only get yourself so far in debt, with anything that resembles sensibility anyway. The second is hours. people are working more hours to keep their ship afloat, but you can only work so many hours in a week. Having your spouse work is just another version of putting in more hours. The last is education. But for most, there is a limit to how valuable you can make yourself in your feild.
As time goes on, the bad economy will drive the cost of living beyond what most folks can pay, and they'll get to "the awakening". Lots of 'em. They won't be able to borrow, educate, or work enough to keep up with it.
And THEN my freinds, they'll wonder how it happened. We could all cite individual factors. But most of them would be secondary causes, part of a chain reaction.You need to get back to that first cause, that neutron source that brought us to critical mass, if you will.
Flame me, do whatever, but it's my responsibility to tell you that it's because people have departed from the God that created the heavens and the earth.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Don't expect to do mediocre work and carry off the majority of the high end jobs and be able to demand top dollar for what you do
This is a critical element in getting top dollar for your work. And this takes a while to achieve...
First it takes PASSION... Passion to learn, passion to practice and a passion to be the best.
I would compare it to being like an Olympic or world class athelete. It takes years of practice and dedication. Lots of practice and learning.
It also means you focus on one aspect of the business which interests you. Unless you have the ability to manage a large crew with separate areas of expertise, it would be hard to be a full service shop and still be world class in a specialty of the business.
I had the pleasure of spending a couple of days in Rick Glassen's shop during a Conclave meet a while back. What I saw there was amazing. I saw some of the very best gold work in the world. It was mind boggling! This was a brand new world to me, I scarcely even knew it existed prior to that weekend. And it inspired me beyond words.
Rick was passionate about his craft and it showed. I witnessed a fabulous collection of gold work, tools, antiques, materials and techniques. His passion showed as he excitedly shared his latest findings with the group assembled.
Overhearing bits of conversation through the weekend I was amazed at every turn. The prices commanded by his shop's work went into the 10's of thousands. He was undoubtably one of the foremost experts in his field.
In one brief conversation he smiled at me and quietly confided "The good stuff is all hidden away to make room for the event." I can scarcely imagine what I missed.
He continued to seek out knowledge and learn with that same passion until the day he died.
This is the passion of which I speak. And this is the same passion I have for my own craft. My bookshelves overflow with hundreds of volumes which contain tidbits of knowledge and inspiration for past and future projects. I constantly search new tools and methods to achieve current and future projects.
I eagerly seek out others who enjoy this same type work to learn from them and given the opportunity, share what I have discovered.
I practice my craft daily and constantly strive to become more skillful and more imaginative. I take great joy in daily progress with my employees on our projects.
I greatly enjoy where I am in my journey as an artist and look forward with great anticipation to what I might possibly achieve in the future!
I wish this same success for all who passionately seek it!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
There's a lot to be said for versatility in this business, too. Many times customers will inquire if you can also do _______ (fill in the blank) for them and being adept with many techniques is always a plus.
What I've always enjoyed the most about this line of work is the challenges it presents. From the get go, I've tackled a wide variety of projects. Airbrush murals, logo design, hand lettering, vehicle graphics, pinstriping and more. I'm considered artistic by most people and am given some high marks and compliments for my work, but it takes a while to get to that point in a sign career. It involves a certain amount of passion for the craft, as Dan mentioned. Without it, hanging in there long enough to build up a customer base and develop a solid reputation for quality work can be a nightmare.
Many of us here live in rural areas where limiting ourselves to doing one thing can be difficult. Sure, having a niche is a wonderful thing, but for someone like Mark who is reasonably new at sign making, finding that niche may take some more time.
Striving with your career and worrying about how to pay the bills is not a fun experience, but (I know I'm gonna get flamed for this) the situation is not exclusive to the sign business. It's a competitive market, there are many small and new shops opening more frequently since the advent of vinyl graphics, and regardless of how much passion we may have for the work, without good business sense and a sound product to sell, it can fail like any other new business can.
At one point, each of us here has made a choice to do signage, pinstriping, airbrushing, etc as a career. A source of income. A job. Some days I am thrilled with that descision and other days I could kick myself for it. Despite how much I love what I do and how much I strive for excellence, there are going to be days when it's just time to do the drudgery stuff and pay the bills. Sure, given the choice, I'd have a line of Harleys out in front of the shop, but there's just not a large market for it where I live. High end work is great for the soul, but scarce at times.
Steve mentioned how being complimented for our work can give us a great feeling of worth, but all the kudos in the world won't put food on the table, especially if you're just starting out. They become a plus later, when the demand has built up for your work. It's a tough process to go through, but well worth the time and patience required.
Hang in there, Mark. Given your past experiences in design and the quality of your work after just one year in the sign biz, I think you have a lot more going for you than against you. It just takes a while to develop it as a business.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
I too have had similar frustrations. It is mind boggling to me that the industry continually complains about income and yet seems satisfied to keep things as is and just keep on complaining. An ad agency cannot provide its customers the same ROI that sign companies can. Yet ad agencies are proud to charge those "outrageous" fees. The sign industry is stuck on a time and materials mentality instead of selling the product for what it's true worth is - a solution to a problem, a way for a business to increase its sales, etc. If ad agencies charged time and materials, their $2000 projects would turn into $400 projects. The industry needs to better educate the marketplace to the value of signs and provide a more professional perception to its clients. If customers were truly educated as to the power of their signs, we as an industry could easily charge twice as much as we are now. But it seems like everyone is always afraid to raise their prices for fear of not getting a job because they weren't the lowest price. I've implemented a marketing program over the last couple of years that attempts to educate the market on the importance of using proper design techniques (Mike Stevens principles), how much more effective a sign would be if it is properly designed, I've written and printed a pamphlet entitled, "How To Choose The Sign Company That's Right For You" which subjects such as, "four common errors and misconceptions that business owners make when purchasing a sign", "10 killer questions to separate the pros from the pretenders", "unlock the full potential of your sign-the power of advertising" and I send out a monthly e-newsletter trying educate the marketplace on the value of signs. I provide an analysis that shows the traffic count that passes by a business everyday, how much money those people are already spending on the products/services they sell and show them how much their income could increase if they attracted only 1 new customer a week because they noticed their sign. The numbers are staggering. My goal is to be the highest priced sign company around, but to back that up with outstanding quality and outstanding customer service. I just wish the industry would realize what it is we really provide and to charge accordingly. I think that USSC and ISA have done a nice job lately in trying to educate the industry, but then it is our job to take that the next step and educate our clients. Everyone would be better off if we all stopped complaining and simply raised our prices. Our products are worth it.
-------------------- Richard Swartz DeNyse Signs 4521 Industrial Access Road Douglasville, GA 30134 Posts: 101 | From: Douglasville, GA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
From the post that started this thread.......
quote:Originally posted by Mark Rogan: .....I'm beginning to think that the economics of the sign business are somewhat skewed from some-if not many-other industries.
Are there 2 and 3 person shops where the owner is putting 150-200K in his/her pocket every year? I don't know. Do you?
....I'm at a point where I need to either cut my losses and leave the sign business, or figure out if it is possible to make a six figure income as a one or two person shop. And if it is, how.
From everything thing I'm reading here.... the sign "Industry" is more like a bunch of individual pationate people that either "shotgun" their approach to business, as DeWayne pointed out.... or their single minded experts withinin a given focus of the sign/identification/sculpting/decorating/painting "industry".
Are there 2 and 3 person shops clearing 150k? It would seem that there are... again, mostly single minded experts within a given focus. Look at Sawatzky, Connot, Glawson.... these people will be my models and mentors... Not "FastSigns" or "Kinko's"
The rest is all marketing and determination... mostly determination.
Thanks all who participate in this eye opening thread... It's helped me realize that I do NOT want to be a starving artist... I want to be a specialized expert and a professional who gets paid to be that expert.
posted
James, sorry I mis-quoted you . . . I have used loans many times to deal with nessecities. I never live beyond my means.
I love to listen/read/talk politics, liberal & conservative both. But most of that crap is just . . . .well, it's crap because the doom and gloomers don't jive with what I see everyday!
Also, even tho' I see alotta people live beyond their means and have debt out the wazzu, I also see them workin' like pack mules to pay them off. Wether they are living beyond their means or not, it does'nt matter . . .they are borrowing, spending and working To me this means a good economy. I believe the economy is great in my area. Everything around here reminds me of the boom towns around Dallas in the late 70's. (By the way, when I went out there in Sept it was STILL boomin'.) When I see people building new stuctures for their growing business, new houses, when houses don't stay on the market long and they are sold, when all this generates even more work for me, I begin to realize, sometimes I don't get swamped with work because I'm too cheap, I get swamped because of the demand and I can then name my price. That, for me bro, is a great economy!! If I continue to use the boom wisely, I will have little or no debt, have some savings, build a new house myself, and be able to get better health insurance.
Ray, I would like to be known for a specialty or niche. But as you described so well, I have enjoyed being versatile in my services, and it has been profitable for me to do so, especially when there was little competition. However, other sign shops are in the area are growing. I choose not to see them as competition, but as an asset to my work that will soon allow me to get into the things I really wanna do, while I send them what they wanna do. So far this is the relationship that we all have begun to realize as benificial in my town.
Someone mentioned they're glad they are not self-employeed because of the health insurance benifits and I must admit this is a big concern of mine. There again is an excellent reason to mark-up every action, even breathing in the shop, lol. I'm going to start marking-up thinking and posting too . . .as these procedures have been adding to my business savvy, lol
Finally, Meee'ster Deeee'aaaaz, mucho gracious amigo four theeee kind werds.
posted
I've been so busy lately for a variety of reasons, that although I've been chacking in daily, this topic got so lengthy so quick, that I avoided it in my quick visits.
I tried out having no computr at home as a step in the on-going work/family balancing act. It worked OK for awhile, & I got more reading done ... watched more TV too ... but when the after holidays slump started picking up, I was in the shop every night (OK, yeah, partly to pay for driving a new truck )... SO, I brought a computer home, & have been able to get some billing , estimates, or layouts done at home on evenngs or weekends.. but no internet acces at home for the last month.
Well, I finally gave in and admitted to myself that my experiment served a purpose... I'm in the high-tech world to stay & I hooked up my cable broadband DSL again yesterday. Since I've been up well before the sun, I got some layouts & quotes done already, but also got to read this entire thread in one sitting. WOW!
Didn't have much of a reply in mind when I started typing... just to weigh in my appreciation for the ongoing dialog available in this village.
I will say, however, that my take on some of this is this... I spent many years squandering some of my talents learning to live outside the parameters of productive society. I wasn't a doom & gloomer (too much self-medicating ) but I felt that the American dream was a farce. I learned to grow food etc., build rustic cabins, heat & cook with wood, use solor power, live w/o electricity &/or maintaining 12V power through photovoltaics & deep cycle batteries charged by my vehicle etc. etc. (got lots of reading done in those days... & got to know & appreciate my family)
FLASH FORWARD... OK, now I'm choosing to play "the game" & I have debt. My office is impressive (to me anyway) I have 24 hrs. a day to live, & molding my god-given talents into a sucessful homeowner/husband/sign guy is my job & I can give it the whole 24 hours after sleep & I don't sleep much. I also don't socialize much outside of the business, but I did enough of that to last a lifetime. I've also done more traveling then most people will ever do, so now I'm sinking roots & branching out on what I think is a good foundation. A key part of that foundation though, is that I've been pennyless & unafraid so many times that I don't fear it. I wouldn't let that fearlessness cause me to take foolish business risks, or any foolish risks... but no doom or gloom will shake my decision to play the game right now, because if the game crumbles in my lifetime... then all the rules change... for everyone, & I feel that my survivalist past will prepare me as well as the next guy for whatever destiny has to throw my way.
So, I guess what I'm saying is I will keep trying to do a good job as a business owner working the concept of capitalism in my favor, always looking to improve profitabiliy as well as the quality of my products & services AND my life. I have goals to be able to make the same amount of money in less time... but then, when I can do that, I will still probably not invest "less time". I may be a workalcoholic, but I'm a contented one.
I've grossed around 100K (on the books) for 4 years running by myself. Since James is still quoting vague references I must have made (& still make) to a sordid past... I guess I should be vague about what I mean by "on the books" but lets just say, I have no doubt I could sell & produce $150,000.00 worth of signs in a year alone. What is obviously more important is how much of that I keep. Right now I don't "keep" much... but I sure enjoy spending it that is as true with buying cool new tools, as it is writing the checks for my Gerber Edge, my nice new truck, or going out to dinner several times a week with my wife.
Like Shiela said about the economy, people letting the money flow through their lives lets everyone move more good & services in & out of our lives. That's where the fun is for me. Thats what I work for... not for a nestegg of cash. At 45, I realize I won't want to work long hours forever, so saving &/or investing is now entering the picture as another financial goal for me to aspire to, & this thread has inspired me in that way. I was very fortunant to have dealt with the 25K in past-due debt I was carrying around when I started this career, & then when my credit was cleaned up I bought a 300K property with 2 houses. Now, 2 years later it is worth 500K... so I might like to try investing in property again sometime.
[ February 25, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Doug the reference I made to your prevoius comments was a positive one, not about a sordid past. If memory serves me correctly you once said "The first year I bought a --- machine, I made ---." I can't recall the model or number, but it was impressive, a real eye opener.
To everyone:when I talk about the state of the economy, it's really quite relavant to this thread, in this way: Buying power. We keep having to charge more for signs, and that wouldn't be such a big deal if inflation were across the board, and in a sense it is, everybody's charging more, but hidden costs are eating us up alive. The difference between what we're charging and what we're able to buy is where we're losing. I don't know about others, but I would hate to have to hire myself. Scary. And I realize that's part of the problem, in a pyschological way, that is, fear of how outragious my prices sound keeps me from charging more. But look again, so I raise my prices and that makes me MORE affordable to myself??? Hmmm.
Are the factors I cited somehow not true? You think people put in less hours than before? They have less debt? With so much awesome technology around, we ought to be able to do better than this folks. Think about the differences between us and the animals. We have so much more capacity to appreciatte art, music, technology. But we spend most of our time running the rat race. We could be striving for new achievments in self improvement, more time to help the needy, but there's less spent on charity now than ever. This is a great economy? Hmmm.
I didn't mention before the reasons I try to live debt free, just my ideas about how it affects the economy. Years ago, I realized I didn't have steady enough income or nerves to take on debt. I stayed in that pattern for a long time,and started realizing the relationship debt has with the economy. I feel I'm qualified to speak out against it's dangers because I'm debt free. (Hey I'm a Christian, I have a hard enough time with hypocrisy ) Also another big thing is that now I'm challenged. (mentally?) I've been dealing with this situation for so long, quiting would feel like surrender. Often it feels like I'm in one of those Erol Flynn(sp?) swordfighting scenes, pay a bill here, fix a thing there. I'm not saying I'm in it for the sport of it, no way, but I want to know if it can be done!
I'm not a static survivalist. I've got aspirations. I've got some fairly good sized dreams, but I've got to get there a different way. I've got my hands, my mind, and God's mercy to pull this off. Talk about adventure. It's enough to be compelling.
[ February 25, 2004, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The whole game of being in one's own business is challenging to say the least. Back when I started it seemed relatively easy. I borrowed $20 from a friend and bought a few half pints and quarts of paint and a piece of overlaid plywood and painted a sign. The profits of this job were reinvested (less a little for me) and off I went.
I was living at home at the time and painted out in the driveway which minimised my overhead. My $50 dollar '56 fourdoor Ford was the shop vehicle.
Things are a little more complex for me now to say the least!
But ever since those first projects I have grown the business through the years.
The trick IS timing. Economies do cycle. And big expansions must be timed to coincide with the good times. When bad times hit you have to pull in your horns quick to minimise the hurt. That said, it's also a must to expand on the very start of the upswing to take full advantage of it and pay things off before the economy goes to pieces.
Slower times are the most critical. That's the time to learn new things, develop your skills and do up your own shop. I've always liked to build our houses and new shops when its slow. Things are cheaper, especially trades and my own time is a good investment if I can't make better money elsewhere.
Slow times are also perfect for doing up your own shop truck, new business cards, and that fancy new showroom.
No matter how busy or slow the economy, its always a good idea to LOOK prosperous. And I don't mean by going into hawk. Keep the landscaping around your place of business looking fresh and cared for. Keep the vehicle shined up and painted nice, even if it's just an old beater. And keep your showroom and portfolio up to date and showing only your best work and especially the type of work you WANT to do in the future.
Most important is to ALWAYS keep a positive attitude, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC. Folks love to deal with others who have a positive outlook in life. And if they think you are doing well they will want to do business with you just so it perhaps might rub off on them a little.
Set realisitic, achievable goals and do something (even a few minutes) that will bring you closer towards that goal every day.
And through all this don't forget or ignore the folks you love in life. Keep it balanced - that's the hard part.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
James, We are a two man shop and each take a week off each year (at different times). Our daily quota is $900 a day. If we don't pull that, I worry.
I don't think 5 or 6 hundred a day is so much for a one man shop...
posted
Bump: 'cause I got a lot out of it (or should have). I wanted to see it again for the specifics. But the generalities are just as important. Thanks to those who replied.
And did I actually reply that many times?!?! Man what a blabbermouth.
Jill's thread hit close to home, so it set me thinking about all this stuff. Steve said maybe it's time some of you got off the pot and moved. My wife's parents are getting on in years, and it's good that we're here to help them.
This seems like a tough market.One thing I have noticed, as I look back: sales is what wrecks my income. Back in Ca. I subbed for a window splash company. She took 35% of the job, but supplied the customers and paint. I just drove around and painted. That was decent money. Another thing was (is) RR equipment, as long as it's the regular freight equipment, not a restoration project. It's good because there's no sales time involved. Lastly, the sign shop at the nearby theme park. They occaisionaly get swamped.She hands me a stack of papers, and says do them how you want, I know they'll turn out fine.
I've got to aim towards this, not just take it when it comes around.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's great to go back and revisit these older posts. There's a pile of knowledge and experience packed away in older posts. It's a good reminder of how handy the search tool can be.
Have any of the original posters seen some signs of change since this was posted back in early 2004?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
more people with plotters doin signs cheaper and cheaper....one put his 18x24 road sign 2 blocks from my house....seen 3-4 new NEED A SIGN? call 000-0000 I WONT BE UNDERSOLD... guy with a print shop doin 2'x5' banners for $25....on the other side material cost have gone up(all vinyls increased)gas prices almost doubled of what it was in 2004....coffee cost more, plywood was $15 a sheet is now $26 a sheet,MDO was $38 is now close to $70, aluminum sheet was $40...now is close to $60.....and how do the newbies do signs for less......THEY DONT ..THEY JUST WORK FOR FREE....and run the market lower.....now with digital printing....they are even cheaper.....so its GONE TO THE DOGS.... and i dont see it going back to a lot of money.....only if you got the talent to paint, are you goin to be able to get real prices for your work....cause right now the idiot with the plotter /computer is tryin to take away your business and the only thing he CAN DO IS LOWER THE PRICES...cause he more in likey dont got any talent or brains....to know better. i got a bunch of customers who keep me busy....but i get more calls "pricing or lookin for a bid" on some thing....or iam callin round and need a good price on ....or DO YOU PRICE MATCH? NO I DONT...if some idiot wants to do your ONE double faced coro 18x24 and give you the stake for $15.. ...CALL THE DUMB A S S!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
After attending several live meets and delving into higher end work, the pluses have been numerous.
For years, I had a niche in the racing market here, but with more vinyl shops in that market, I changed the strategy to break away from it. As a result, although doing only 4 cars this year, each were more profitable and the shop was no less busy with dimensional work and higher end vehicle work. (The bikes are starting to line up... )
I've gotten a better grip on the business aspects. In the past, I would go out of my way to do every aspect in the fabrication process. Now, I regularly sub out sandblasting and clear coating to a local body shop. We have an excellent working relationship and, as a result, we've both seen an increase in better paying work.
Shortly after the Looney Letterheads meet, I took the plunge into a larger Main Street location. Although it didn't last and the shop is home again, just being downtown gave a certain validity to the business and it carried over. The walk-in cutomers have increased here at home and plans for a new, larger shop are in the works for the near future.
None of these pluses were accidental. It's been a hard fought battle with some challenges along the way, but I was determined to start steering the business in the direction I wanted, not what my customers felt it should be. Some have left, some have stayed and a few were "fired", but the new customers are less inclined to worry about price and look at our work as an investment and not so much an expense.
After 15 years, I think I'm starting to get the hang of this.....finally. Who'da thunk it! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's my update....I brought in about $1K less last year and spent about $1K more...something's gotta give here.
I am gonna get a day job and be selective about the types of signs that I do. After the other day's post (especially what Donna said) I realize that I do have a gift, I always have. BUT that doesn't mean I have to "give" it away!
I am going to provide mostly painted jobs. The HP vinyl can go onto vehicles, when I get what I want for them. Funny, in the past 2 days I have gotten 2 painting jobs. One is a much coveted one (the pizza place who stencilled their own building....guess the township got after 'em )
Good luck & God bless us every one. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please don't take this the wrong way.... Are you a sign artist or are you in the sign business. Have you ever seen a highly sucessfull business owner, CEO or anyone in any field that was not consummed by what they did? When I hear a business owner say they don't want to work long hours, I see a person who will not make it, whether it be a sign business, plumber, or ice cream store. You gotta pay your dues, and when you are starting out, probally for the 1st 10-15 yrs., you will put in 60-80 hr. weeks if you want to make it. At some point you may be able to rest, but that will come later. If you don't want to do that, don't go into business! Make it a hobby, work for someone else.
This has nothing to do with you talent, abilities or experience. It's business.
I spent the last 25 yrs. in the Sign BUSINESS. You can make a 6 figure income and you won't have to always work 12 hr. days. I'm able to slow down a little (if I want to....I love doing this), take 3-4 weeks off a year, enjoy the grandkids.
If you don't want your business to consume you and you don't have a real passion not only for making signs but for being in business, it can still be a great life, doing what you love, making a normal income.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
what a great post!! i missed this last year because i was on vacation....something that i hadn't done in 7 years! have things changed?....yep...my prices are still increasing...because everything i buy costs more. i keep track of these things more...i figure if i'm working my ass off then i need to be compensated for it. my skin is getting thicker..although the i still felt a little stab when i saw one of my customers drive by me with his truck lettered and i didn't do it. i'm sure he did find someone cheaper...goodie for him. i'm going to take most of the day off...to watch my stepson play his baseball state final. the world won't crumble if snosigns is closed on a wednesday! number wise i'm doin better every year but not quite as much as i feel i deserve...hopefully i will iron that out.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It pains me to hear that so many in our industry are struggling. Noella and I were at a similar place in the late 80's, early 90's. In 1990 we attended our first letterhead meet, and really got fired up about our potential within this industry...and we are still honing our artistic skills today.
Excellence at our craft is only one side of the story. Like most artistic types, we knew nothing about business except that it was supposed to make us money. So, in 1992 we hired a business consultant, and our fate changed almost overnight. The consultant taught us how to ask and answer questions about our business and to collect pertinent information that we would base all decisions upon. He also taught us how to read financial statements and how to be true to the activity of our business. So as we were getting better at our craft, we were also getting better at running a business.
Of course there are more ingredients to this pie than apples and a pinch of cinnamon. We very carefully and consciously acquired skills like goal setting, time management, cost accounting, investment strategy, marketing, employee management, etc. But even with all this knowledge I think our most important asset was, and still is, "an attitude of success". This is really what gets us the blue ribbon at the county fair.
Success is an "acquired skill" that can be learned. We looked for people in our community who we considered successful and talked to them. Successful people love to teach and pass along knowledge, and they are all around us. A good mentor is an extremely valuable asset.
Honestly, Noella and I still pinch ourselves and wonder if this is real. The fact is, we're no different than anyone here. We just had a vision, and with that vision, a plan, and the courage to see it through. If we can do it, so can you.
quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: .... One is a much coveted one (the pizza place who stencilled their own building....guess the township got after 'em )
Please, please, please tell me this is the 1 I think it is. If so
An observation, not just from this thead, but from a lot of things I've seen and heard from other signmakers lately. Too many people in business (this and other businesses) have absolutely NO CLUE about business.
Some see others who have been in business for years driving new cars & taking expensive vacations & decide to go in business for themselves so they can have that too. Maybe they just need the ego trip of saying they own their own business (worked for 1 of those once, it wasn't pretty). The problem is either they don't want to actually work, just want the benefits they see from being self employed, don't see the work it took to get to the expensive car/vacation stage or they have no clue about business.
I see so many people in this industry who are constantly shooting themselves in the foot and honestly, they are hurting everyone in the industry. Some because they are running their business with only their heart instead of their brain & gut, some who don't look at what their business is doing until tax time after they've given their accountant a stack of receipts and the accountant has given them a tax return, some who just flat out refuse to keep informed of what is going on in the industry outside their own little world, some because they just won't get organized. These people have no one to blame but themselves.
This is a business, just like any other. It's a shame you have to take a written test to get a driver's permit and then prove your skills to get the license, yet anyone can go into business without any education or even business common-sense.
Want to fix it? You have to make a committment to fix it, a REAL committment. It ain't gonna be easy to change years of bad habits but it will be well worth it. If you refuse to fix it, sell your inventory & equipment, get a job at Staples and quit ruining the market in your area.
1. Call your local college & schedule yourself into their first business course. This fall. Right now. Have you called yet? Community college classes generally don't run over $200 or so and most have evening or saturday classes. (next semester take an introductory accounting class)
2. Change your own view of your business. It is not a hobby. If a customer goes elsewhere (as long as it wasn't because you were downright rude to them) it is not a personal insult to you. It is business. It's great to have a dialog/relationship with your customers but never lose sight of the reason you are doing this, to make money. If you're afraid to ask for money, get a job at Staples. I'm sure any employer would love an employee who won't ask for more money. It's great to have the freedom to take time off for a doc appt or whatever without having to ask your boss but this is still a business. Work out of your home? Do not answer your house phone during work hours. You have to respect that you run a business if you expect anyone else to.
3. Call your accountant and ask what software they recommend FOR YOU & your situation. Schedule a time for them to set up your company file for you. (If they won't do this, ask others you know for referrals cause you need a new accountant). I like to have people set up an "unknown" expense account and if they have a question as to where it goes, they can put it in their with a very detailed explanation and I'll figure it out, or call me & talk to me about it when they're doing their books.
4. Schedule once a week to do your accounting. Consider this a weekly appointment. Commit to it. All your receipts, invoices, etc. go into a folder during the week to be entered during their scheduled time.
5. Try to go to a tradeshow at least once every other year (once a year is better). Read ALL the articles in the magazines you get, not just the ones that appeal to you. Even if it is something you don't want to get into, you need to pull your head out of the sand and be aware of what is going on in your industry. You don't have to play follow the leader, but you need to be aware.
6. If you're not already keeping track of your exact time & costs on a job, start. Next order that comes in, grab a sheet of paper & write down every minute you spend on it (from initial dicsussion time with customer to creating the invoice and getting them out the door) and all materials. Do you have more time & money invested in this job than you thought you did? Time to get more efficient or increase prices. (I can't talk about prices without a plug... www.pricingmadeeasy.com I love EstiMate! lol)
7. Make sign buddies that offer things you don't. That heating guy whose truck you lettered last week... ask if he ever thought about using those "installed by" or "serviced by" decals. Even if you don't do printing, someone here will print them for you. You make a few $ and you grow the relationship with this customer. You've become a 1-stop shop for him. If you don't mention these, maybe his wife will tell him he needs those decals, he finds a shop listed under decals in the phonebook & when he goes there he finds they also do truck lettering. Hmmm, 1 stop shop for him why should he come back to you? Why should he go to this shop for truck lettering, this one for decals... you get the idea.
8. Make people aware of what you do. I met with a customer a couple weeks ago about a logo & big sign for a new business they're opening. They called last week asking if I could do a banner for them, they didn't know if I could do those. Sometimes we need to step back & look at our business from the eyes of an average customer. We all know what we're doing and what our offerings are but customers aren't as educated in the industry as we are.
9. Look at the image you project. If your sign is falling apart, it doesn't instill confidence. If your shop sign is faded coroplast, people are not going to expect you to do the high end jobs. If your truck looks like it's 1 trip from the junk yard, people are not going to want to trust you lettering their 40k truck.
10. Get a pocket notebook. On each page, write the day & date. Keep this with you at all times. Any appointments get written in it along with your daily to-do list. Always consult it before scheduling anything. End of day, sit down and go over your list for today, what got done, what didn't and what's on the agenda for tomorrow. Even if it feels like an unproductive day, crossing things off a list, gives that you great false sense of accomplishment.
11. Build fluff. If you have a problem with delivering on time or always feel like you're rushing to finish a job on a deadline, build fluff. Customer orders a sign that you expect to have done by next Tuesday. Tell yourself it's due by noon Tuesday. Tell your customer it'll be ready Wednesday afternoon. Any disasters come up, you have some leeway. It's ready Tuesday at noon, call the customer & tell them they can pick it up that afternoon. Most times they'll love it being early or at least be impressed by that. It's not early to you, it's on time but to them it's early cause you built fluff.
I have a lot more, any questions or want to discuss further, feel free to give me a call. This is the tip of the iceberg, the beginners course. There is still a loooong way to go after this (like reading financial statements, etc.)
posted
This is a subject I am passionate abot. I was delighted to see it come back!
We've seen some fairly big changes in our business this past year. In the short term its meant a substancial decline in our numbers, but I'm not worried. We have a plan.
First off I've downsized the number of crew to three employees instead of the five we used to have. This does not include Janis or I.
We found the shop functions best with this number of employees for the amount of workspace we have.
The number of really big jobs declined for us this year... or rather we had a big one cancel at the last minute leaving us with a big hole in the schedule and forcing us to make some adjustments. Six weeks of poor weather this spring also made us put off some outside work we wanted to do.
Having a real shop at long last also changed the nature of our business a great deal. During the first full year we were able to prefabricate more pieces and then ship for installation. It made us much more productive and allowed me to design things differently so our projects reassembled in the field easier. We spent a fraction of the time we usually do on the road, which I grew to really appreciate - especially as a new grampa.
I wrote an article for SignCraft around the new year which ran as a sidebar to the feature on our new shop. In it I wrote how I would run our shop if we were a "normal" sign shop. It got us to thinking and we decided to become just that. But with a slight difference of course.
We would do only three dimensional signs and by that I mean REALLY three dimensional stuff. Sculptures with signs as part of them. It would start small like a rock thrown into a pool. Soon the ripples would widen to the communities around and beyond. It is working beyond my wildest dreams already! Since February we have sold 7 major projects and have quite a number on the drawing board for future months. Our goal is do three or four of these projects each month. When we achieve this goal we can do MORE business with better margins than we did in the theme park business. And best of all we won't have to travel to do it!
The phone is begining to ring from far and wide as word of our creations begins to spread. I firmly believe we have discovered our next NICHE market... and I'll prove it in years to come.
Best of all we can do the bulk of fabricating right here in the comfort of the shop and ship these things to where ever they need to go.
Changes are still coming down the pike. A new CNC router will be operational in mid-September allowing us a precision we have never enjoyed before. We look forward to what we will be able to do with this machine!
We are exploring a host of new materials and methods to expand our repetoir. Combined with the materials we have used in the past will be exciting.
I truely believe we have the ability to increase our gross income and bottom line too while still continuing to have the MOST FUN in the business creating the off the wall OUTRAGEOUS things we do.
In a world where most signage is flat and vinyl there is a HUGE demand for hand done creative work.
Best of all I know we can live in the small town we enjoy and market our creations to the world at large.
BUILD IT and they WILL come!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Here's my update....I brought in about $1K less last year and spent about $1K more...something's gotta give here." this what i was addressing in my post....apprently only jill and i seem to notice(or are aware) the increase in ALL WE BUY as to the DECREASE in what we sell!!!!! and the same time more people trying to startup their business(as ron said)who are willing to work 60-80 hrs for $5 an HOUR!!!!!! they see it as building their business so the can relax later...but in the process they will have an DECLINING EFFECT on their onw business.....its the old SUPPLY vs. DEMAND.....to many tryin to make a livin off a dwindling market share. also its become a "business" of EQUIPMENT NOT TALENT!!!! and none of that comes cheap. EDGE, PLOTTER, SOFTWEAR, time spent learning HOW TO USE THESE....all take away $$$ PER HOUR of real income. and along with the EQUIPMENT comes SUPPLIES so the EQUIPMENT can PRODUCE.....so you CAN MAKE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE SUPPLIES TO RUN THE EQUIPMENT SO YOU CAN MAKE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE EQUIPMENT THAT YOU MAKE THE MONEY FOR THE SUPPLIES SO THE EQUIPMENT CAN PRODUCE...........round and round we go. guess iam gettin old...and being used to MAKING ALL THE MONEY...IN MY POCKET...not to vinyl, inks, plotters, printers and the people who SELL THEM..... i like the days when i did a stock car, with a brush, in 3-4 hours start to finish, got $200 and $180 of that was ALL PROFIT!!!!! like i said once before in apost....it aint YOUR GROSS INCOME thats important.....ITS THE PROFIT you get which is waht you need to see...example: old snapper workin outa his truck, didnt make $20k a yr.....BUT 16-17K was all PROFIT!!!! now you got a shop with printer, plotter, rent, utilities, supplies, 1 employee other then you...now its a $100k operation.....sooooo outa that amount now comes equpiment, utilities,rent, supplies, wages.....so you now have become AN EMPLOYEE OF ALL these things.....and....maybe outa that 100k you did last year your pocket saw $25k.....not a good precentage of gain in my way of accounting......and on top of these thing you got the possibility of illness, natural disaster, equipment failure and periods of NO WORK... but you still have to pay the bills.....or they come and take your eqipment....this post by the orignator of this post is on the classifieds...
"Gerber EDGE II...LIKE NEW..........$8,000
Hyatt's Dual Drive Router w/NEW Columbo Spindle and Vacuum table..........................$22,000 (Includes ArtCam 3D software!!)
[ June 13, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Mark Rogan ]
[ July 27, 2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
There's no lack of money in the sign biz, only lack of people willing to reach out and take what's there, or finding ways to get it.
Sign biz is absolutely no different than any other business. if you do the same thing everyone else is doing, your price is dictated by market. If you do something nobody else offers, you set your own price. You have to be willing to change your business model over time, you cannot expect to do things the same way for 30 years and still make a living.
If a sign biz fails and the owner starts a business in a different industry, chances are that business will fail too unless they change the way they run a business.
It's NOT about art, skill, or talent. Sorry, it's NOT. It's about business. There are plenty of talentless hacks out there, some have their own TV shows building motorcycles or Pimping people's cars, raking in the coin hand over fist because their market for some reason or other *perceives* them to be the best.... aside from the fact they make total asses of themselves on TV.
Perception. PR. Business.
Even Dan Sawatzky finds ways to turn all his jobs into PR opportunities. Articles in mags and newspapers, parade floats, working on-site in a shopping mall.. building a castle out of sugar cubes...
This stuff does not happen by sheer dumb luck or accident, folks.
**Edit** By the way, OP is right. Gross means nothing. 100K is useless if 75k goes to bills. Man, there are such easier ways to earn a living than working yourself to the bone like that, and still having to worry about slow times, equipment failures or catastrophic events like earthquakes or hurricanes.
If a business has 100k in sales, 50k of that better be pure profit going right into the bank. Gotta save for a rainy day.
[ July 27, 2005, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
WOW.... Read Dan Sawatsky, then read Old Paint Life is too short, in our land of freedom and opportunity (yea, Canada too, sort of) you can create any type of life you want. Remember, your attitude is contagious
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
yeah.. what Ron said! OP, you're a great guy... but if attitude is contagious, I think I'd rather read Dan's post afterreading yours
So many folks with so many unique viewpoints... & most of them spoken like it is the proven one & only correct view.
...couple a quotes (gotta keep up with my reputation..)
quote: now you got a shop with printer, plotter, rent, utilities, supplies, 1 employee other then you...now its a $100k operation.....sooooo outa that amount now comes equpiment, utilities,rent, supplies, wages.....so you now have become AN EMPLOYEE OF ALL these things.....and....maybe outa that 100k you did last year your pocket saw $25k.....and on top of these thing you got the possibility of illness, natural disaster, equipment failure and periods of NO WORK...
OP, that scenario does sound pretty bleak compared to swinging a brush & pocketing 95% of every dollar you collect... but as you said..."it's the old SUPPLY vs. DEMAND.....to many tryin to make a livin off a dwindling market share." & the market for handpainting, as superior as it is in many ways, is also dwindling. As for the risks you mention... YES, running a business has risks. Just like the long hours Ron mentions... it goes with the territory & is at it's worst in the begginning. Working at Staples does have less risk!
quote:**Edit** By the way, OP is right. Gross means nothing. 100K is useless if 75k goes to bills. Man, there are such easier ways to earn a living than working yourself to the bone like that, and still having to worry about slow times, equipment failures or catastrophic events like earthquakes or hurricanes.
If a business has 100k in sales, 50k of that better be pure profit going right into the bank. Gotta save for a rainy day.
Mike if you are pocketing 50% of sales... more power to you, but that is by no means the norm, or the benchmark that must be met. I think there is an important distinction in the generalization of saying "100K is useless if 75k goes to bills" If those bills include paying off things like shop improvements & equipment purchases that build equity & increase profitability... that is much better then if it all went to sign supplies or payroll for example.
Saving for a rainy day is a great idea, but back to the fact of taking risks as a business decision... I could have built up a nice retirement plan in the last few years, but I've grown my business considerably with the funds I had available. The increased profitability could make it easier to accumulate that retirement savings at a later date... if I stay able & willing to work hard... if not, then I lose the gamble... but you can't win if you don't play
posted
Just in case anyone out there thinks I have it all figured out or that my way is the only way they would be sadly mistaken.
We need to each choose our own path... what is right for us.
If you chose to walk in my shoes for a week or perhaps longer, you would quickly discover I too have dilemas I must solve on a regular basis. And sometimes the solution is not readily at hand.
Our business is one of long term goals... and suffers occasionally from lack of cash flow - something we are currently working hard to correct by changing direction a little and taking on "sign" projects for the "normal" world instead of focusing soley on the theme park world. A change in direction takes time to implement.
We still live with long term debt but are paying it off rapidly. The choice to pay down our debt faster keeps us cash poor for the short term but we firmly believe that it will serve us well in the future.
We have chosen to build a very high end studio to showcase our skills. We quickly discovered that living on even a small acreage is more costly than on a city lot - especially in terms of the time commitment needed to build and maintain.
The new shop is still in construction (for two years now) and the building process on our property will take the better part of ten years in my estimation... and that's with the ideas we already have in mind. Being in construction will use up a substancial amount of our cash on hand for most of those years too. Those are the rules and we are not imune from them.
But as aluded to in my posts above we make daily decisions to steer our business in the direction we want to go. The jobs we tackle are for the most part high visibility jobs and we futher promote our business through marketing efforts such as writing articles.
High visibility and outrageous projects attract media attention and we gobble the opportunity up using it to the fullest advantage.
Contests and awards are also a great marketing opportunity... not for the glory but instead for the chance to raise our profile.
We tackle our business with the same passion we put into our art.
We have experimented with various sizes for our business, growoing from working solo to 22 employees and back down to the smaller size we are today. Each choice has been deliberate.
Its important that we do what makes us happy, for life is too short to do otherwise. I love my work, and it is a huge part of who I am. We have made many deliberate choices in favor of the lifestyle we choose to live. Each choice we make has a price and we all have to pay the piper.
I'm happy with the choices we've made through the years. And I'll live with the mistakes without regret.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have been TRYING to read this whole post over the last 2 hours & kept getting interrupted once I knew what I wanted to say, so, what I will say will probably be pretty simple compared to all of what you guys have said.
Kissy, those are REALLY good points, & I humbly admit, I have said "Ouch" to a couple of them, being guilty myself.
Jill, I think I my profit was only $7000 last year, & I know how it feels! And you remember that gallbladder surgery I had last November? Well, my hospital had Charity Care, & they paid over $8000 in medical bills for it. Most hospitals do this.
I am ok with this, tho. Really! Sometimes my husband will do side jobs that have helped, but i have come to realize that every time business slows for me, there is something needing my attention, a lot of times aside from my work. I always get through it, & I personally believe it is the Lord helping me. He never lets me down.
Also, my husband is in this with me. We have talked about him getting a job on his own again, but we do not want to do this. We always come thru, & we feel that it is going to work, & get better, as it does a little more all the time.
Aside from that, I have only been doing this for about going on 7 yrs., & I get busier every year. Maybe not a whole lot, but I get customers by word of mouth. I am on a back road, in the middle of allotments. There was no zoning here when I started, & the township has no problem with me, nor my neighbors. Most of my next door type neighbors are campers who only come up in the summer anyway.
What really was waking me up about my pricing was the fact that my customers were pulling in here with fancy new SUVs & extended cab trucks & trying to whittle my prices down... something's wrong here! Then you have the local yokal types who think they are doing you a favor telling you they want their stock cars lettered by YOU... oh my goodness, ME???? And they will spend THOUSANDS on their cars & whine about how much you want to letter it! I blow them off, now. The heck with them.
I am learning a lot of new ways to look at things by being on this board, & I am really grateful to be able to come on here & read these posts.
I have always been content with what I have, because I had been on welfare years ago, & was a single mom for awhile. I truly believe that if I keep going, I will be fine. Things get better as I learn more, & I get busier, too.
And one interesting note... Working out of home means being disciplined! When I start to slack off, getting up late, getting lazy, etc., NO BUSINESS! Isn't that something? It is true! When I hop to it, get up early & work my butt off, it just keeps coming! Almost like the Lord saying, "When you get those done, there will be more, but not until..."
See, all of you with these big numbers you earn every year amaze me. That is wonderful. I am so happy for you, & that you share on here to help others. I never expected in my whole life to be where I am now, & it may not seem like much to some of you, but to me, I am happy! I am not the best letter painter, but you watch, I will get there! I am learning to take one day at a time, & not to fret as much.
OP, I hear you, the prices of vinyl stuff, MDO, aluminum, etc. is getting really high!!! I caught my self figuring prices for a sign last week & picked up my order to find it was almost $30 more than usual, here they jumped the prices & I was never told!
All of you who can paint quickly & beautifully have it all, if you ask me! After reading Jill's thread, & all of your responses, I am thinking about specifically picking out certain jobs & do them by hand, so I can get better & quicker. So any of you who are going to Jill's meet.. look out, I will be asking questions!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why do you people let customers beat you down like that?
If signs are a hobby for you, you don't need to make a profit...but... if it is your business---- make a profit on every sign ----or turn down the job!
You cannot compete with Joe's Stikkie Shop, that he runs outta his bedroom and make a profit!!!!
It is your business to make money! If someone needs a sign for their store, or wants their truck or boat lettered, quote a price (in a confidant tone of voice) that will give you a healthy profit!
If a customer tries to haggle price, I give them a 'cold eyed look' and raise my price! They either get the message or walk away! If they walk away...no big loss! After 38 years, I don't need practice, I want a profit!
How do I figure price?
1. Calculate materials and overhead cost. 2. Calculate labor cost. 3. Quote the highest price I can say ... without laughing!
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
ron doug, barry and anyone else who is READING WHAT I SAY AS AN ATTITUDE...WAKE UP FOLKS...iam telling it like it is.... as far as COSTS AND PRICING..... there is nothing wrong with my attitude....i love what i do, and am doing good with what i have. considering HURRICANE IVAN last sept, bladder cancer, surgury and recovery time, finding out iam 100% cancer free(hell of an attitude booster that one thing is!!!)and then having HURRICNE DENNIS hit here the begining of the month...... what i see IS REAL FOR ALL OF US!!! you may not choose to elaborate on it and say oh well..S H I T HAPPENS... but it does have an effect on all of our BOTTOM LINES!!!! iam not saying painting is the way to go..WRONG AGAIN FOLKS... i was saying that when i painted i made MORE PROFIT... and spent less for materials and supplies...END QUOTE! your materail cost havent gone up? vinyl prices havent increased? GASOLINE COSTS havent doubled since last year? GEE i want to live in your world....IAM STATING FACTS....thats all folks.... jill and i are aware of it....since we dont do 100K a year....less gross, less profit! so we tend to not see the business as rosey as those who have 100K comin in....BUT YOU ARE STILL BEING AFFECTED BY RISING COSTS and a dwindling market!!! then add newbies who have no years of experiance to base their business on....trying to open THEIR MARKET...with lower prices...again AFFECTS ALL OF US....and what really p.o's me....is most of you know me, how bad of an ATTITUDE DO I HAVE....when i posted the picture of me in speedos workin on my building? and i also am one of the few that is happy with my life(cancer free, 60 and building my shop while making signs FULL TIME)and you all want to jump me for an ATTITUDE???? i think you need to stop...and check your own TUDES.....
[ July 27, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
That's a good point RE: reinvesting back into the business.
I reinvest in my business on a regular basis, but as far as numbers are concerned I put improvements and new equipment into a different category. They don't *cost* money, investments give you *returns* so they really don't count against you. The fact they earn money basically negates what they cost. You also have the choice to make the investments using profits, or not. History has already proven they are non-essential to the success of your business (if you already have the profits to pay for them in the first place) they are simply a means to earn more. Just my take on it! Of course if you make nothing and you go into debt to obtain equipment you HOPE will help you turn a dime, that's a completely different animal - and a POOR business decision. I've seen a lot of people taking on lots of debt so they can "run with the big dogs" and they ultimately fail.
That being said...
The majority of my jobs are priced on-track to yield 50% margins. This is something I started doing recently and consistently within the last year. Some items don't yield as much such as most of the pre-designed stuff on my website (non-custom anyway) but anything else is fair game.
Shooting for 50% gives plenty of headroom for equipment purchases. I couldn't invest in all this photo gear without a decent margin.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
___________________________________________________________ Its important that we do what makes us happy, for life is too short to do otherwise. I love my work, and it is a huge part of who I am. We have made many deliberate choices in favor of the lifestyle we choose to live. Each choice we make has a price and we all have to pay the piper. _____________________________________________________
Hey, All! I must say I'm a little chocked up seeing a post I started over a year ago had been resurected and produced a flaming folder to boot!
Damn, I'm going to miss this business...wait, that's not 100% accurate. I'm going to miss making signs and miss going to meets and seeing friends, making new ones, learning great stuff like glass gilding. The "business" part I'm not going to miss. Allow me to make a few last observations. A lot of people talk about the need to be passionate about what we do. I have to believe 99.99% of everyone on this post IS passionate. Or how could they have read such a long thread and voiced their opinions so PASSIONATELY? I believe there are some here really talented at running a business. Have a real head for numbers. Are disciplined about spending (or not spending) money. I think others aren't as good at the business side. That doesen't make them any less talented or any less passionate. I think everyone would agree this IS a tough business. But what business isn't? Costs HAVE gone way up due to the war, the price of oil and other factors. But they've gone up for EVERYBODY. I started this post, so I feel I have to let everyone know what I've learned about why The Great Barrington Sign Company failed. One word sums it up: HUBRIS. If you aren't familiar with the word, the definition is: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance. I needed a driveway marker for the new house I just built with the $$ I got for selling the agency. So I bought a book on carving signs and carved one. A pretty fancy one, too. Came out nice. So nice, it was eventually stolen. But I liked doing it so much I contacted the author of the book, Paul White, and took some classes and apprenticed for a week. I was in AWE of his talents. The signs and carved eagles were unbelieveable. The full-sized hammerhead shark that I got to work on a little was mind-boggling. I KNEW that was what I wanted to do next. I needed to get away from NYC. Find something less stressful and produce art that would have some lasting value. All the ads, TV spots, radio, whatever I created over the last 18 years were gone. I realized I put my soul into my work and besides what I have on my reel or in my book, it's all gone. 30 second ads run a few times and then they're gone forever. A magazine ad will run in a few books for a few months then...puff...gone forever. Right after I sold the agency I was diagnosed with Stage III malignant melanoma. Basically I had (have) a 50/50 chance of surviving five years. So I really wanted to create some lasting art. Something my kids could show there kids "Hey, look. There's (blank) that Grandpa did." That wasn't going to happen with an ad or a TV spot. So I decide I'd open my own sign business. Hell, it would be a snap after building a 100 million dollar a year agency, right? Wrong. That's where the arrogance and hubris got me. How dare I stroll into a business wher I know nothing about? How dare I assume a nice logo and some fun radio spots is all it would take to have people beat a path to my door? This is my mia culpa, people. I admit it. I'm guilty. I went out and bought machinery and supplies with reckless abaondon. I bought airtime for my spots on 4 differnt stations and ran a heavy schedule. Full page, 4/C ads. New cargo van. I spent money like a drunken sailor.I eventually burned through a $300,000 401(k) My retirement fund. Gone. I fu**ed up big time. I had personal problems that I let get out of hand. That really destracted me from the business. I just gave up. Closed up. And just today I'm getting the space finally emptied so it can be rented and I can get out of my lease. Right now, I'm unemployed. Sold 1 house and have the second one on the market. I'll turn 50 in November. Not a great age to be when you're looking for a job in advertising. At 35 you're being told "It's a young persons game." I still have the Edge and the router. I'll probably set it up somewhere. Make signs for friends as gifts and stuff. My son starts college next month. His major is Auto Tech so I told him he could make plenty of pocket money selling the other kids auto graphics, stickers for their tool cabinets, etc. But, I'm not upset. I met some great people. Learned a lot of cool stuff. Learned some humility. In a very roundabout way I think I've rediscoverd some spirituality. I'm okay. I know I still have a lot to offer. I know I'm a damn good writer and creative god. (See? I told you I've learned humility. Notice the lowercase "G" in god.) There are a bunch of really nice signs around here in South County. Maybe years from now they'll still be here and my grandchildren will see them and my kids will point and say "Grandpa Rogan made that one, too."
Thanks to Ol' Paint for calling me and telling me this post had reared it's ugly head once again. I really appereciate it.
Alright kids, See ya 'round.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
mark...i'm so glad you posted! i've thought about you often...wondering how you are doing...if you went back to ny or started another agency. i have no doubt you will bounce back and be a success in your next venture...you are extremely talented. the sign business is truly a difficult one. i talk to fellow heads on a daily basis...we always seem to trade similar stories about the challenges we face...the stress and demands of customers and deadlines, increasing costs, keeping up with technology and/or the ever changing products we use, competitors who give shyt away just to get a job, human error because we are trying to do everything ourselves and fuk up sometimes, etc. its almost like you have to be overly confident(or some would say arrogant)in this business or you get eaten alive...of course there are days when i doubt all my abilities as an "artist in business" ...especially when i'm doing something new or trying to learn yet another piece of software or equipment. i've been reduced to tears at 2am because i'm routing something and on the last tool change something goes very wrong...i've had to repaint a sign just to remove my salty tear stains on a freshly coated board because i was blubbering like a baby while i was standing over it. i always have bruises and flesh wounds on my arms, hands and legs because i'm constantly moving 4x8 sheets of mdo, plastic core, dibond or hdu...or schlepping 70lbs rolls of media upstairs by myself(i'm obviously a bull in a china shop). its physically and mentally challenging to say the least. some days i love it and some days i wonder what the hell i'm doing. but there's got to be more to it because i keep pluggin away. i hope things will start looking up for you...i know you put your heart and soul into the gbsignco. one door may have closed but a window will open. i know you said you have your house on the market and i'm not sure if that means you will be moving back to ny...but if you are still around in sept....the 23-25 to be exact...i'm hosting a meet and would absolutely love it if you could be there...we could be gilding some glass ya know.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This year hasn't been as good a year as some in the past. I blame that on the general economy. My regular clients are still sending me the same amount of work as usual but the "One Timers" aren't as frequent as they have been in the past. I am currently sitting at about 80% of the gross sales I had at this time last year. (But then I also didn't start the year until March.)
After reading the original post by John Martin Robson, that Kimberly posted last night and then reading this thread today, I started doing some checking on how things have changed for me over the years and why.
My pricing for virtually the same jobs for long time clients, since 1996, has increased by about 50%. What used to cost them $300 is now $450.
Interestingly enough though, my material costs have NOT increased by 50%!!!! Sure there always seem to be little increases now and then but they haven't added up to a 50% increase over those years. For example, in 1996 I was paying $5.75/yd for 24" black 2 mil Avery. Today I pay $7.10/yd. That is only about a 25% increase! (I only happen to know those figures because I went to the filing cabinet and checked)
[this paragraph is the edited part] Last year a long time client paid big bux to have their logo changed. They also started buying a different type of delivery vehicle. I quoted a price, and even though I wasn't the lowest, I got the contract based on past service. I quoted $500 per vehicle and did several. While we were in Mexico, on vacation, they e-mailed me for a quote on what it would cost to do the same job in reflective vinyl. Since I didn't have price sheets with me, I e-mailed Ken Henry and asked him to send me back some pricing from our supplier. The cost to do the job in reflective was going to increase my costs by $100 so I e-mailed a quote of $700. Quote was accepted. I make an extra $100 per vehicle because they want reflective. As someone said a few years ago (Cam Bortz) "perceived value". If you don't shoot for the moon you won't get any cheese.
I guess I am ahead of the game when it comes to covering price increases?
As far as ALL the expenses of running a business?
I am home based with a shop on the property.
And even though we are mortgage free, it doesn't enter into the equation much since we would have to have a place to live and I'd have to have a place to putter even if I weren't self employed in the sign business. So for me, I consider that I have no "shop overhead".
Sure, I have a van that I use for business. And Shirley has a car. Even if I weren't self employed, I'd still need to own something to drive to work at wherever I DID work at. So for me a shop vehicle isn't "overhead".
If I weren't self employed, I'd still need heat, electricity, telephone. So they aren't really "overhead" to me either.
The nice thing IS though... Since I AM self employed at my home, I can write off a huge portion of the expenses for all of the above on my income tax return.
Obviously, the situation is different for those with a "storefront" operation. They do have overhead expenses that home based shops don't. BUT the interesting thing IS, most of the complaining about rising costs and lower pricing is not being expressed by "storefront" operators. (I find THAT interesting, maybe they know more about being in business than home based folks?)
I guess my point is....Don't complain about rising costs, raise YOUR prices. Don't complain about overhead, appreciate it for what it is, a tax write-off. If you can't make a living at what you are doing, find a job that WILL earn you a living that you are comfortable with.
Bottom line...Si Allen quote...
quote:It is your business to make money!
(I figured since everyone else had a say, I might as well too! )
[ July 28, 2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
... but when the after holidays slump started picking up, I was in the shop every night (OK, yeah, partly to pay for driving a new truck ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
)... SO, I brought a computer home, & have been able to get some billing , estimates, or layouts done at home on evenngs or weekends.. but no internet acces at home for the last month.
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
) Also another big thing is that now I'm challenged. (mentally?) I've been dealing with this situation for so long, quiting would feel like surrender. Often it feels like I'm in one of those Erol Flynn(sp?) swordfighting scenes, pay a bill here, fix a thing there. I'm not saying I'm in it for the sport of it, no way, but I want to know if it can be done!
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic