posted
Monte's post about raising prices kind of put this topic on the front burner for me. It may be a long post, but if you aren't independently wealthy, it may be of interest. When I was in advertising (the past past 20 years) AdAge and ADWEEK magazine did a special report every year on salaries. It gave everyone in the business a pretty good idea on what others were making/paying. It broke down shops by billings, metropolitian areas, etc. It was all anonymous. No Companies or individuals were named. But if you were an Art Director in NY, you could look and see that a mid-sized shop in NY would/should pay an AD approximately XX amount of dollars. It gave owners a good idea of what they should be paying their staff. Etc. I've only been in the sign biz for 1 year (officially) so, I'm not sure something like this exists in this industry. If not, it should. If so, where can I find it? I know the pricing guide is good for helping price signs within some sort of relevance to other shops, but it's the salary thing that would be handy. The reason this question comes now is I'm beginning to think that the economics of the sign business are somewhat skewed from some-if not many-other industries.
For example: A one-man operation in NYC as a graphic designer can easily clear 6 figures a year if they are good and can hustle.
The owner of a small design advertising "boutique" with 2-3 employees taking home 200K+ would not be very unusual.
Switch gears and let's say an electical contractor with 2-3 full-time employees who keeps busy all the time. He or she could look at taking home 150K+ easily. I'd say the same for a reputable HVAC or Plumbing contractor as well.
So, here's my observations having run a sign shop for a little over a year: a one-man operation would be very hard pressed to take home 100K+/yr. $150K+ would seem impossible.
Are there 2 and 3 person shops where the owner is putting 150-200K in his/her pocket every year? I don't know. Do you?
The point of all this is this: Monte's post is right on. I feel the industry as a whole is wildly undervalued. In advertising, we could charge $1,500 at the very least for a logo design. For the same exact service to a sign client, I'm lucky if I can get a third of that. I'm lucky if the client just doesn't assume it's part of the sign. Monte then mentions Jay Cooke and Dan Swatsky as being 2 examples of folks who ARE getting paid what their services are really worth. (At least that is what I took his mentioning them to be.) Isn't that a bit lop-sided? In an online community of, what, 8,000 people, we can point to a small few who are making the sort of income the work they produce truly warrants? Let me get some feed back. But let me close by saying a few things so as not to **** anyone off. I truly LOVE this business. The folks I've met here and at the 2 meets I've been to are really nice people. Genuine. And extremely talented. I'm not in this business soley for the money. But I'd be lying if I said at this point in my life it wasn't important. With one kid graduating college and one graduating High school, money is indeeed very important. And lastly, this whole post may be moot (to me anyway) because I think I may need to close The Great Barrington Sign Company fairly soon. When I run the numbers, the profit just isn't there. I'm as busy as one person can be. 14 hrs/6 days a week has become my norm. And basically I'm covering my rent, expenses and equipment loans and taking a salary of ZERO dollars. I had an assitant for 4 weeks and the productivity went up for sure. But just enough so to put 5 bills into his pocket each week and a steady zip into mine. Yes, when the equipment is paid off and my use of materials gets more savy to increase profitability, there will be more money getting to the bottom line. But is it worth it? At 48 years old, do I want to work myself to exhaustion day-in and day-out just to make ends meet? Do I have to? Is that the true economics of the sign business or am I just too green in the biz to know HOW to make maximum profits on each and every job. I appologize for the long post. But I'm at a point where I need to either cut my losses and leave the sign business, or figure out if it is possible to make a six figure income as a one or two person shop. And if it is, how.
Thanks for reading. Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mark, Signs of the Times Magazine publishes extensive surveys including salaries about once a year. Most of that data applies to companies with many employees and probably will not answer your questions about making a living as a one or two person operation. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
I know of a couple guys netting 250K+ from their small sign shops, and I know one guy netting close to a million on his big sign company. The dough is there for an entrepreneurial (is that a word?) owner, but there sure isn't any money available for a production employee (graphic artist, fabricator, painter, etc.). Top wage I've seen in Southern California is about $18.00 an hour. Drive an hour south and you can get the same quality craftsmanship for $18.00 a day. Couple of days by boat to the west of here and top wage is about $18.00 a month, paid to people every bit as creative, intelligent, and skilled as any sign shop employee in this country.
By the way - it's not apples to apples when comparing our incomes with those of vocations that demand government approved licensing: electricians, physicians, attorneys, plumbers, engineers, etc. Their trade associations (lobbyists) skew the supply curve.
As for your personal income of not very much - that's to be expected the first year or two in the sign business. For one thing, it takes years to learn how to design and manufacture good signage; and it also takes years to develop and maintain a good body of customers. Hang in there!
-------------------- Jack Leyden Jack's Signage 1330 "H" East St. Andrew Place Santa Ana,CA 92705 Posts: 22 | From: Santa Ana,CA | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd say you are right on the money, so to speak, Mark. Not very many people in this will admit what they really make, and a lot of them brag (lie) about it at meets - the only year I ever made any bucks at all was my one year at Disneyland where I made $48,000 - on my own, working for someone else and subcontracting the most I ever was able to pull down during busy busy times has held right at $15,000 yearly - like you said; just keeping the wolf away from the door and barely that. The only sign people I've ever known to have a fairly new car, a family, be buying a house had a spouse with The Real Job. Forget such extravagances as health insurance. Of course I mean just starting out -- after the first 30 or 45 years I understand it gets better. Like we were told in school - if you want to have money - go be a doctor. You can do that in 8 years.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do about 25-30g a year now, but you've got to understand the parameters I impose on myself.
I live debt free, which means I'm surrounded by old equipment which is very high maintainance (time consuming). I raise some of my family's food, which uses time. I do my own electrical, plumbing, automotive, etc. It requires alot of knowledge and tools and time.
It's easy to think that if I did signs only, I could make 40g or more, but the line probably is on an upward curve, that is, it's exponential, it gets steeper as you try to earn more. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe more hours would translate into a correllating increase in money. But I've monitored my output in the past, and my productivity increases in the middle of the day, then tapers off.
Also, if all I did was signs, then I'd have to hire others to do my repair stuff, and/or buy new stuff, with the "new stuff" payments. Yee-haw.
I'm not writing this to try and make redneck recruits, no, just give some idea of the money situation here.
Here's some other thoughts I've pondered: (the crowd says More musings, spare us! )I've looked at other trades pulling down money, and alot of them are associatted with debt. I'm not ranting against debt, that's you're own choice. I just wonder if money isn't so closely monitored if it's part of a house loan or such. I mean if people had to write a check for the full amount to the carpenter of electrician that built their house, Woe Jack! Maybe not, I'm just pondering.
Also two other ideas: is there a big emotional and tradition type influence in owning your own house?
I guess the bottom line is this folks: leverage. No wait, LEVERAGE!!! The doctor gets what he/she does because it's pay me or die. And evey one of us only gets a decent wage (if we do) because somebody thinks they can't make money without our services. I know there are exeptions, the artists that do murals and graining in nice homes, or the graphics people that do cool stuff on rods and bikes. But as far as stictly signs goes, alot of it is leverage, and there are new shops popping up everyday, which decreases our leverage. I'm not ranting against newbies in this trade, hey, how could they have known? It looked like a neat thing to get into.
Oh well, enough verbage for now.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
For whatever reason ( ) I think the problem is that most people haven't decided what, exactly, they want to accomplish...much beyond earning an honest living and maybe having a few creature comforts. This tends to lead to short-term thinking, like focussing more on saving money than on making it...whether buying equipment or materials.
I firmly believe that you can make as much money as you want if you start by (first) actually knowing what you want, then develop a strategy for getting it...set goals, plan, and execute.
No, it isn't all about money...but many of the other things you want for yourself and for your family come much easier with money than without it.
ANYTHING is possible...if you believe it and are committed to achieving it. Faith and discipline are powerful allies.
I fully believe that the average commercial signshop can be 50% more profitable. For a one man shop, that would put $150K per year (per employee) within reach. That's gross sales, Mark, not income...but don't forget that you're building equity in your business (or should be).
Set your sights high Mark, and you'll go farther. There's good money to be made in this business.
[ February 25, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Mark, The sign business is not a get rich quick scheme. Just like any other business you have to work the long hours and build sweat equity before you can reap what you sew. The people I know that are earning the $50,000-100,000 salaries served their time. After 5-15 years working for someone else, they went out on their own. It took them another 5-10 years to earn their own reputation and good salary. If you want to make the real money, you better be in it for the long haul.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
1 year? Very, very few businesses (in any field) turn a profit after only 1 year. It takes time. You have start-up costs, etc. and to expect to open your doors & suddenly be in the black in generally unrealistic.
As for your working to cover materials, equipment payments... try downloading ProfitWatch from EstiMate at www.pricingmadeeasy.com. You can plug in what you want to bring home, your expenses, and figure out what your hourly rate should be. Then, try the demo of EstiMate. It takes a bit of time to get used to it, but once you do, you won't go back to the pricing guides.
You're already getting your name out there (those radio spots are great!) and building a customer/referral/word of mouth advertising base. You may not seem like business is booming right now, but most people don't trust a business that is brand new and not everyone needs a sign right now. But next year, when they do, their buddy that you did the sign for last week will refer them to you.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the responses, folks. All good. All valid. I know it takes time for a business to turn a profit. Any business. And I sure never looked at the sign biz as a "get-rich-quick scheme" All I'm trying to get a handle on is earning potential in this industry. I hear some folks say that a one-person shop can bill 250,000/year. Some say a lot more. Some say a lot less. And, believe me, I know about building a business and being in it for the long haul. I started an ad agency in 1982 as a one-man shop. In 1999 I had a partner, 90 employees and offices in Chicago and Manhattan. And, therin lies the rub. What puzzles me is the vast differences between what people are willing to pay an ad agency for for creative services and what they are willing to pay a sign company for. Sometimes for the exact same service. I think my big mistake was just jumping into the business with just a year of time spent researching it. Listening to salespeople selling me equipment. I imagine if I had worked for another sign company, I would have seen first-hand the generally accepted fee structures in the biz. I do think my shop is very successful for being officially open for just 8 months. I did a very comprehensive business plan that called for me billing a minimum of 125K this past year. I heard $75 - $100 sq ft was a low-end sign and 125-150 was the higher end. I based my projections on the higher end. But. I have only had 1 client to date that I could come even close to 100sq ft. People just freak out at prices of things. If you look at the Bull's Head Tavern sign at www.gbsignco.com I originally quoted a price of $55/sq ft with the understanding there would be 2 other taverns and all 3 would get 3 new signs each. That put the sign at about $4,500. The sign I was replacing cost him $50.00 Total. Not per sq ft. Ultimately I did the sign for $50/per and made very little money. The amount of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and creativity that went into that one sign should have brought a price of 8,500-10,000 I feel. And I feel THAT is a bargin. Maybe I am crazy. Maybe I come from a different world where clients would pay $225/hr for my time and creativity. But it's hard to swallow when I'm putting just as much love and energy into trying to create something truly beautiful and unique for a client and being told my time is now only worth 45-or 50 dollars per hour now AT MOST. I've read here before wher people refer to sign making as advertising. And it is. So why, as an industry, do we allow for such disparaging discrepancies in fees? There really is no answer. Not a single, clear-cut one anyway. And I'm not even sure what the point of all this is except to find out if there is a way to recast ourselves in a new way. To educate not just our clients but ourselves as well that what we do is very valuable. It can have huge impact on our client's business. That it goes hand-in-hand with their marketing, promotion and advertising and should command equal respect and equal fees. It sounds like some of us have done just that. But it sounds like the vast majority have not.
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There's two facets to this business... one is the 'art' - the craft of making signs. The other is the act of making a living.
And we all need a balance of both to make us happy and successful. It's a tightrope at best.
Most of us are in this business because we possess some natural talent. It draws us here. And most often folks with an artistic bent are not very good business people. These two attributes are most often mutually exclusive. They demand the use of different sides of the brain.
Artists by their very nature need to be appreciated and accepted. This is done by giving them work. And the greater the need the cheaper the price. Kinda backwards isn't it.
And I'm no exception.
But there are a few things that drive me. I'm not in this business for the money. I'm in it for the art. But while I don't particularly care about money or wealth I fully realise that I dream very big dreams. And big dreams cost big money. So I make sure we charge what I feel our work is worth to help finance these dreams.
I am also goal driven much more than normal. When I visualise a goal I get rather singleminded about it and do what I have to do to realize it.
I also am very fortunate to be married to someone who understands me and supports me. She is president of both our businesses and handles all things financial. It works for us.
My job is to bring in the money by doing what I love. Janis' job is to keep control of the money.
That is a key to our success.
Another key to our success is to specialise in work which has little competition. High end work. It happens to be what I am passionate about. Massively passionate!
We have worked very hard to establish a larger than life reputation for being a creative force in our narrow corner of the market. This small corner of the market is with little or no competition... a key to success.
Why do something that anybody can do? You will always be fighting the competion instead of spending your efforts doing the very best work you can do.
We have made deliberate choices all through the years. First we worked on developing our skills. Books, travel and research have always been important. We invested heavily in the tools we needed to accomplish our work. For a while we were bent on growth of our company. These days we are putting our efforts on finishing our new shop and studio.
After a period of rapid growth up to a crew of 22 talented folks and multiple jobs going in multiple cities at the same time we made a purposeful and deliberate decision to scale things back. It wasn't what I wanted to do or the pace I wanted to live. I LOVE getting my hands dirty not simply manage other people's work. At the same time I also like directing a small team of folks to help me realise my vision. The scale and detail of our jobs demand this approach.
I like the scale of a small, highly skilled team... like a small musical band... not a full fledged orchestra.
And it's working well!
The heavy investment in a second business and a new shop/studio means we are busy paying down dept for the next few years. Even so our salary is currently in the range we all dream of.
It is possible!
But there have also been some skinny years in our past, especially when we were first starting. We pay all others before we pay ourselves. During years of heavy re-investment back into the business or when the economy was especially slow things sometimes got a little tough. It's never been EASY. But we have always managed to get through and have fun doing it.
Looking back through the years, the very best part of this business is the HUGE satisfaction I have realised by living the dream. I DO WHAT I LOVE AND LOVE WHAT I DO.
And that is success!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote:And, therin lies the rub. What puzzles me is the vast differences between what people are willing to pay an ad agency for for creative services and what they are willing to pay a sign company for. Sometimes for the exact same service.
Mark
That is truely the rub. Although I proudly consider myself a sign guy - no one else does. And I don't correct them. Even the name of our business leads them astray. And it's on purpose too.
I don't WANT people to think ORDINARY when they think of me or the product we offer. What we do IS special and we charge accordingly.
A sign is a method of conveying a message to a viewer about our client's product or service.
The world generally believes the only way to do this is to paint or stick letters on a flat board and nail this up to the front of their building. And they most often believe that the issue is how to do it as cheap as possible.
I live in this same world... I just won't go there.
-dan
[ February 23, 2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
All the way from Mark's original question to the input from all you talented people. I have beeen in business since 1982, but moving to a retail location two years ago was like starting over again.
I too love this business, and am not in it for the money or fame.....just to have fun and do what I love. I too have a supportive wife. She has a blackbelt in shopping, but can tighten up the strings when needed. She really knows nothing of the business world, but lends a real common sense to our partnership.
Mark, I have felt like you sometimes, but somthing keeps driving me to keep on! Maybe it's because I gotta do somthing, might as well be somthing I love. My intention has never been to be rich. I just want to pay my bills and have something to give. Not only money, but time. It will be interesting to see how far this thread goes, and maybe I'll bookmark it for future reference.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Cuz! Well, being broke must run in the family. I just did my books (haha...I know I need to do them every month!) Last year I brought in $31,651.70 in signs. (My best year ever in 18 years) BUT after buying vynull, etc, etc, I ended up as making about $11,000....which is about 1K less than the "normal" year. So frustrating. I feel as if I am just spinning my wheels. I don't care if folks think I'm stupid by giving real numbers here, either. I used to get $1400/month in Social Security benefits for my older kids because their dad is deceased. Since Rachael turned 16, it has been cut down to $700/month. So I have to make that up in signs, and let me tell ya, it ain't easy. I really feel it is time for me to add a part-time REAL JOB with a weekly paycheck. So much for health benefits...I had a plan thru the state which was $30/month. In December I was 15 days late paying the bill (had $2500 outstanding from deposited customers) and there is no grace period. Had chest pains for 2 days in January, went to the ER. My bill of $4900 for 4 hours there is not covered. I don't know how I am gonna pay for my upcoming hysterectomy.... And here I am going to meets with wild abandon. I have come to the conclusion that I MUST increase my prices. My goal, my plan, is to make enuff $$ to pay off my HUGE Visa bill, my house, my truck, my doctor bills, and then spend whatever's left on meets. I don't worry about retirement anymore...I'm sure the stress is gonna kill me anyway! Good Luck my friend. Love-JILL ps...BTW...I spent $800 on COROPLAST! hahaha
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Are you a Sign Artist? or Sign Business? If a customer asked you to produce 9000 pieces of vinyl graphics what would you do? There is money in this business tons of it.... how do you get your share? I subed out the 9000 pieces and paid off my $22,000 Edge. If you are the person that is in this for "enough to make a living" and "for the love of the art"... you are not in Business!
edited for Jill.... don't give up, get in there and kick ass! Self employed don't need to be self inflicted poverty.
[ February 23, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
Great Post Mark. You are no doubt visiting issues that you have contemplated many times. You fit an interesting profile of age, past business involvement (growing then downsizing) and then finding yourself in situation of putting out production, selling, and in a true sense, wearing every hat in the place. The basic problem is the old "grass is greener" perception. When you look at your situation, which you know intimately, and then compare it to what you see or think you see...the conclusions are obvious. Your "treading water" and you want to get somewhere (especially at our age). Maybe a career shift is appropriate, however the realities of changing require a period of adjustment that can be considered as "starting over"
I used to be in the car wash business, thats where I learned how much business people will "mis-represent" their income. Imagine similarly equipped car washes in the same city, experiencing the same economy, and the same weather, and I washed 4500 cars in July and my "buddies" tell me they washed 10,000. After a long time, I concluded I was in the wrong biz. Now I sell signs to these guys, and all I hear is how tough things are, the low priced guy and the weather are killing them.
One thing to keep in mind is the hidden "fringe" benefits that dont show up on our tax returns. I found that when I force this analysis, I see that I am earning a living, and more importantly, I can always find ways to improve...just gotta actually get motivated enough to implement those ideas. Good Luck... hope that this topic is expanded by others...its meaningful to all of us.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know if this will be helpfull but I tend to think backwards.....or maybe it IS goal setting......
When someone asks me about going into the business of making things, the first thing I ask them is how much money they need to TAKE HOME in a year...tripple it and thats how much stuff you need to sell to reach your goal (of course if your biz is low on overhead and material costs but labor intensive this ratio will be different). In any case, using the 30% formula, to make 50k you would need to SELL 150k of stuff. So....now I have to decide if I want (or can) sell 150,000 $1 things or 7,500 $2 things or one $150,000 thing. I think you catch my drift.
I, personally make my living as a salesman......selling what I make. I want to spend more time making things than selling them so I model my business around selling to about 150 to 200 customers (collectors?) a year. That's about 3 carvings a week. I also now want to sell about 5 house markers a week....thats 250 a year...that's my night job and that cash is going toward retirement.
I think what I'm saying is that I have always been as busy (with a few exceptions) for 27 years as I have wanted to be because I don't need to find a lot of customers. I'm putting in a few more days a year finding customers for the house markers but they sell real fast! LOTS of people own homes!
Works fer me....but as usual, I probably got it all wrong......
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
First of all, I have seen your web site and your work is beautiful!
Also, your story of your tavern sign rang SO true with me. The first business sign I did in the early 90’s probably took me 120 hours of work (planed, joined , glued up the redwood, carved, painted a pictorial on the sign (two sided sign), mixed a custom colors, built a molding for the irregular shaped sign) and I charged $600.00 I think (not a great hourly wage).
A couple of personal anecdotes.
I have always loved letters since I was a kid (I’m 57 now) and the first time I visited New England in the early 80’s I was blown away by the beautiful signage there, especially the carved gilded signs. In 1990 I attended Jay Cooke’s 3 day carving workshop which started my sign career. When I saw Jay’s shop, I was further impressed by his sign work and accomplishments.
His course was excellent in all aspects. But one thing the course did do was to burst my bubble slightly about making signs. As most of you know, Jay is the consummate businessman in addition to being a talented sign maker. Part of the emphasis in his course was in the business side of the craft. Of course, I didn’t want to hear that part, I just wanted to make beautiful signs and make a good living while doing it. But his course was a real eye opener.
Second anecdote. Every time my wife and I would travel to New England and I would see a sign shop, I would stop in and introduce myself and just try to see what the guy was up to. I remember two different sign shops I visited, although I can’t remember the owners’ names. One was a guy on Route 12 in Vermont, just south of Woodstock (not sure if he’s still there). He worked out of an old building (a converted schoolhouse I think), my dream job / setting. The second fellow was a young guy in Great Barrington MA! His shop was on the main drag as you entered town (I think it was on the left as you entered from the south, wooden storefront, two big picture windows, painted green?, but this was probably the early 90’s so who knows now). The Great Barrington guy was making beautiful carved signs (many in the shop in progress), but was working 7 days a week, long hours and was within DAYS of getting out of the business. He had recently accepted a full time job, not in the sign business, and was looking forward to this new job and saner hours. Life’s ironies at their best, here I am, always wanting to be in the sign business full time and him, anxious to get out and go to a “corporate” job.
I stayed in my corporate job until June of 2003 and frankly the reason was I stayed so long was money. I had climbed the corporate ladder and I was making a good salary, but I was killing myself, working 70 hour weeks plus a daily commute of 2 hours. I was on medication just to cope with the insanity of having to lay off people 12 consecutive quarters (and many of the layoffs were simply because of corporate greed).
If it weren’t for the fact that my wife is working and has health care benefits, I would not have been able to change careers. I could never have made this change without my wife’s support. I’m so happy now. And I’m totally medication free, except for an aspirin a day.
I feel really lucky to be out of that corporate rat race. I miss the money but only to the extent that I would like to buy a few things for the business and I now have to watch every nickel. But as Kissy says, it takes time to get any new business rolling.
Good luck in whatever you decide, but give serious though to the excellent advice of the veterans above. You definitely have the talent and we need more beautiful signs in the world.
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Great post, Mark! I'm sorry for your difficulties. I have been self employed all my life, and have basically made squat financially the whole time. I'm way too sensitive about pricing and money. I enjoy the work, but not the burden. My debt is substantial and it will ultimately keep me from acquiring the tools I need to keep competitive. I hope this doesn't happen to you. It's a struggle, most people wouldn't want to make.
I'm at a true crossroad in my life. Do I keep acquiring more debt to stay in business or do I stay where I am and try to whittle it all down.
Fortunately I have Jane to help. And while I do most of the production, she runs all the paperwork and pays all the bills. She always has. Back 10 years ago or so, she started doing most of the pricing, because she could see I didn't have a handle on it all. I know she does a lot better job than me, and although she will ask how much time I might have in on a project and might ask what I think the project should run, she ultimately will charge more than I would have. I sort of hide when people come in to pay for their work, but she takes it in stride, and it must be working, because they still come in.
Raising prices is only a part of the chain of events leading to greater profits. I have had several outer body experiences trying to figure out how we can make more money, because we have the work. I have come to the conclusion that it is very much the nature of the business. For example, if a person comes in to visit and ask questions about a project, the project might be worth "x" amount of dollars, and that customer might eat up a lot of the profit on the job, with continous questions and concerns. This is a bigger factor when you are starting out, because you haven't established yourself as an expert. This is probably the reason most of us put in huge hours, because if you have a small shop and it takes a long time to sell and set up a job, eventually you're going to have to produce the product.
Sometimes I can be curt with customers to try to move them along in the process. I don't want to know the whole story behind the reason why a person might need this sign or that sign. Just place the order and let me get at it.
In smaller markets you can actually have many hats. You can be a salesman, psychologist, teacher, designer, painter, installer, accountant, cashier and yes even a politician. What has helped us raise profits despite the unslaught of "cheap sticky vinyl basement shops" is to learn to recognize projects that are going to lose money and try to build a base of customer who trust us and consider us experts. These folks are more than likely to give you complete control over projects and lesson the time it takes to get started.
We are gradually whittling down debt, but we aren't getting any younger and we have to think about those days when we can no longer pull it off.
My advice would be to not quit right yet, and as some have already stated on this post, the first years you are going to pay out more than you take in. You also have to know when to quit. Hopefully you can weigh through some of what's written on this post and pull out the things that are going to work best for you. I think this business is more peculiar than any other and you can read journals and articles until you're blue in the face, but eventually you will have to taylor design a business that incorporates all that you stand for and believe in. Good Luck!!!!!!
[ February 23, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nice thread Mark.... I've been "in the sign biz" now for 18 months... after having an almost identical history to you.... albeit on a smaller scale. My agency had 3 people in it and I billed out at $125 per hour. I have also been contemplating the EXACT same things you are.... all of the "is this industry retarded or am I expecting too much".
Here's my personal opinion... you and I spent the bulk of our careers thus far in a fast paced and creative environment servicing people and companies that understand the true value and the ROI of advertising and marketing... and more importantly... could pay for it. NOW... we are dealing with smaller companies and busnesses that are struggling the same as you and I are now! We also all know that signage is the BEST ROI money can buy... but to a small business... it can still be a hard sell.
Ordering a sign versus designing an identity package... You can't talk to the local car wash owner with the same terms and jargon that you would use on a VP of Marketing in a major corporation! THAT... to me, is the rub.... and the hard part is putting together your own marketing plan. I would like to ask you if your marketing plan is to do what you want or if it's to fill a niche or to convey market share perception. When I had my agency, everything I did was to make myself look bigger and more important... I even made my best friend wear a suit to a few meetings... told him to just sit there and shut up... just for the perception that I had VP's and such... after a few jobs, companies were impressed that I was only a 3 person shop... they THOUGHT I had 15 or 20 people... and paid me for their perception.
NOW.... I drive around a 24' panel van and have a mobile sign-shop... I brag about it... telling people that I understand they are busy and they can't afford to lose productivity from a vehicle for a day while I letter it... let alone the person they would have to spare to bring me the vehicle... that is one of my value addeds.... I cater to my customer like none of my competition in that way. I use my design skills and print background to convey a larger and edgie perception than any competition... and the people who "get" the perception pay a premium. Although my plans are to build gorgeous signs... I look more like a cocky SOB and have had many a customer say "I noticed your truck/logo... I want to be noticed like that.... that's cool". I'm not saying anything here more than Dan Sawatzky... he has formed an image of his company, believes in it and sticks to it... to the point of NOT defending the fact that he considers himself a "sign guy". He's willing to live the perception he has built.
Believe me... I'm in the same boat as you... I've contemplated trading my panel van in for a brown shirt and a UPS truck... and a steady income with benefits. "Sign guys" have a harsh stereotype... everyone has heard the "I remember sign painter Bob years ago... what a drunk!" Well... I believe that we all create our own realities... I choose to try and break through the stereotypes of the industry and remake my image.
One of my favorite agency sayings is "What we need around here are smaller logos and larger ideas!" You were in the business of creating perception... I am discouraged, but am willing to give this another year and see if I can meet my goals.
Are you discouraged because the money isn't out there... or because you haven't been able to convince them that you're worth it?
posted
There's a fellow in our town who does similar stuff to us. He does great work. And he is awesomely talented.
I was in his shop a while back for a friendly visit. There was some great pieces underway in the back. He gave me a little tour.
While there we had a discussion regarding prices. I asked him what he was getting and had a feel for his costs. And what I heard was disturbing.
The signage was high end stuff. Carved and coated foam over welded steel frames. Awesome quality.
As I recall one piece he was selling for $7,000. His cost was about $5,000 not including labor. And he had to ship it. This didn't include shop overhead, heat, light, or reinvestment. His shop rent alone was more than $1200 per month.
And he could do at most three or four of these pieces each month. It didn't make much sense to me. He was working for free.
For a similar piece I would have charged in the range of $10-12,000.
I know the market for this very same type work. He was underselling and hurting himself in the process. He left lots of money on the table.
It is largely a matter of self confidence. And it is critically important to be fair to all concerned, especially you. Don't shortchange yourself simply to make a sale.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is a great thread, since I have been toying with going on my own. I work for an environmental graphic design firm (www.huntdesign.com), we build nothing, we do planning and design of signage and exhibits projects, and the company I work for does very good, and I get paid well for it. I started working for a one man operation and he made decent money thought he alsoo wrote articles and was part of the sign business as a consultant. I have also worked for mom and pops that had no clue, and see the mistakes they have made, like not growing, or having the confidence to get the good work, they just stagnated in the cheap work wiith thing that they were comfortable with, I went to your website and you do good work and your skills are very marketable, what you need to do is absorb yourself with the high end. WHen you were a Ad Agency, yoou were probably involved with AIGA, GAG, ADC or other design organizations, the same applies with signage, get involved with SEGD and even the AIGA. They are in the business of design and get paid well for it. There are a lot more "sign" people getting paid in the SEGD, you might want to look into it since you posess the design/ad mentality and know that our skills have worth. My boss came out with a great book on the subject as well-
posted
I have to thank Jill for exposing a fact that I have known to be true for many years. There are all sorts of Letterheads, many featured in our sign mags, that exist on 10-20,000 dollars a year after expences. When you consider all the hours put in to end up with so little, the earnings of a waitress at Dennys begin to look really attractive. Consider that the income for a single person on welfare in Ontario is almost $20,000. Somethings not right.
The real crime is that we continue to do the same things over and over, year after year, hoping that things will miraculously change. I can recall several years our accountant would return our income tax form and ask why I continued to keep pounding my head against the wall. Good question, but I really didn't care to face the truth and explore the answers. I loved what I did, and wasn't that the most important thing?
Some of you are idealists. You'll tell us money isn't all that important. Some may even try that old "money is the root of all evil" crap. The real truth is money is neither good or evil. In our society money is the exchange for everything. Poor people cannot help poor people.
After 50 years, I am finally willing to stop feeling quilty about making money. I might be wrong, but having a few extra dollars to squander might even be kinda fun. Have any of you ever felt guilty for wanting more? What about those poor kids in Africa our Moms used to talk about?Will they really be better off if we don't clean our plates or strive for a little more out of life?
Eventually each of us will hit the wall and be forced to look in the mirror and make some tough choices. Some of us need to find fulltime jobs and do signwork as a partime job. Those that continue to use the "can't make that in my area" excuse may actually have to get off the pot and move. Some may choose to deversify your income by finding your spouse a second job. Bet that goes over real big.
So what do we do when we finally get sick and tired of always being sick and tired? Find someone who is doing whatever it is you desire and do what they do. Why do so many of us take advice from friends and family that have less than we do? Avoid negative people like the plaque. Investigate those that give you advice to insure they are the real McCoy.
We have a wonderful asset here with Letterville. There are all sorts of your neighbors that are making money and getting the most they can out of life. And guess what? They are willing to share what they know with you. Some others are not doing so well. They are downright miserable and convinced that life sucks. In their minds, life cast them as victims in an unfair system. These people are also willing to share their ideas. I hope you will all still tolerate me, but I've decided to listen to the people who get to take vacations with their families and friends every year. Just call me greedy!
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Mark, Hang in there, but develop some "passive" income stream too.
We have been self employed sign company since 1980, full time since 1984. since 1984, Maris has had an outside job for about 18 months. We both also used to teach CPR and First Aid occasionally. ($17.00 per hour-back in the 90's!) But the sign company could not do for us what owning residential rental property has done. We got our first property in 1995 with $10,000 down on a VISA card and a contract for deed. (Thank you Carlton Sheets.) Maris now divides his time about 50/50 between the signs and the rentals. (we have 21 units.) The sign biz provides about $25,000. per year in salary and benefits. Not enough to raise 3 kids, or plan retirement. The rental property is filling in the gaps AND making retirement possible. (Maris just turned 50, I will be celebrating 20th anniversary of 29th birthday.) I also look for about 15 years of running a sign shop WITHOUT playing mommy to be a help. But that is still about 6 years away. If it wasn't for the love of signs, and being able to be self employed out of our residence, I would not be doing this just for the money.
Very powerful words! You're right, money is not the root of all evil...LOVE of money is. I think each of hope for a miracle job to come in and pay all our bills in one fell swoop.
I think the passion of these people is similar to others in their industry, but, nobody beats the gritty passion of a real artist or craftsman. My competitor once told me that he just wanted to "build his business to a point where someone would be willing to write a check to buy him out" That is not passion. Yes, most of us would have to seriously ponder a lucritive offer of big money, and may even accept. But, that's not why we do it. It is so addicting, it's a rush when the phone rings, and we find out it's that guy we've been beating on for months. Or when someone comes to us totally lost, they walk out of our shop with a smile, and leave a deposit check behind.
So, yes, it can be about the money. But, I can think of steadier ways to make a living, (LOL)
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe Kissy is right - it takes time to build a business. I also feel that one of the mistakes in the sign companies that aren't quite making it is an eagerness to please the customer. It's funny how no matter what you quoate for a price the customer will normally have some resistence. Some don't, but quite a few will want a bargain, price wise. It's normal for them to want more for less money. We sign makers seem to under value our time and product. The key is to have a clear handle on our costs and what it takes to produce a sign. Jay Cooke keeps a history of the types of signs he produces-time and material. He then can charge accordingly-with confidence-for each specific job. I'm striving for confidence in my pricing. I'm not so concerned (finally after 20 years in the trade) with what others charge. They don't do work like me and they don't have the expenses I do. I never bid against other sign companies. I'm never the lowest bidder. I have to offer more than just price for my sign work. In the end, for me, it's making sure I charge what I need to charge to be profitable. As soon as I put "no thank you" in my vocabulary the power to be profitable came alive. This is just one of the attributes a successful sign business needs. I like this posts because I'm getting different views on a very important and complex problem.
-------------------- Jon Harl 5731 Meridian Ave. San Jose,CA 95118
jonharl@comcast.net Posts: 99 | From: San Jose, California | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey Steve... You know I like to expose myself! Love....JILL (determined to do better or die trying!)
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is great therapy. So many are trying to get a handle on pricing. Dan is correct in that confidence has a lot to do with it. I wish I had it all over to do again, knowing what I know now. We have been trying to increase our pricing year after year a few percentage points higher than most other services in our area to make up for the years that we worked for too little.
I have always wondered why 1 person would make more than another for seemingly the same effort. I know you can lose money making high end projects just as easily as you can for making a cheaper product.
We always attack the Drs. and lawyers for charging a lot, but maybe the customer views our work as fun or hobby-like and therefore not worthy of high prices. They view other professions as more serious in nature. If your profession deals with life or death as with the medical profession, security and risk as in the insurance profession or justice as in the legal profession, you tend to be perceived as being more important than someone who is trying to make a living based on creativity. If you've been in a car accident and are seriously injured you don't question medical help to save your life and you hope your insurance coverage protects you so you don't have to seek legal help.
My customers are not going to shrivel up and die if I don't pinstripe their new vehicle. If on the other hand you have a business that has just purchased radio time, or an ad on the TV or newspaper about your new business, you would be crazy not to have a sign saying "Here I am!" The other ad costs would be negated if they can't find you. If a customer is explained this and shown examples of the importance of your service, you're on your way to demand a good price as well as the respect you deserve.
The more important your service is and the more complicated the process is to build your product, the more money you can demand. If a new business is locating in an area with other complicated signage, they will find it necessary to purchase a comparable product or risk going out of business.
In my area I have tried to raise the bar for the quality of signage that becomes the norm. That way I can make a more complicated product and distance myself from a competitor who doesn't have the ability to make what I can. I have had my work cut out for me though, because when I started there were businesses around here that had magic marker drawn paper signs for there 1 and only sign. I started out with virtually nothing and I didn't have a lot of polish. It's been a long uphill struggle, but I have raised the bar and I am still trying to improve this business. My shop needs a lot of attention and I need to clean up my act in certain areas. I feel I have the right to raise my prices to make these things happen, and I hope my competitors will do the same so we can all enjoy a better stanard of living.
I think discussing it will hopefully start the ball rolling for all of us. We deserve a pat on the back. It may be a fun way to earn a living, but it's hard to be creative day in and day out. The way we're taught to view art and creativity in our schools is very arbitrary. If you have a gift in understanding science and math and you get a good grade in those subjects, the public will say you worked hard to earn those accolades. But if you have a gift in understanding how to make a beautiful work of art the public will say your talented. This often implies that you don't have to work for it -- that somehow you came out of the hatch knowing how. It's no wonder why our customers have a hard time evaluating and respecting our efforts. But if we all keep raising the bar we will in effect improve our environment and become the important cog in the wheel of commerce that we deserve to be.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Awesome! So I guess we're all in agreement then. Tomorrow morning we all start charging $125/hr for our services, right?
That's tounge-in-cheek guys.
But I have TRULY apprciated everyon'e feedback. Steve, I truly thank you for your heartfelt response especially while you're recovering. Get better soon.
Well, I went to bed last night feeling like it was time to call it quits and go back and find a job in advertising. But tonight I'm going to bed feeling knowing I'm going to give it another year. And during this next year I'm going to give it 110%. I'm going to keep coming to you for ideas. Help. Encouragment & support. I'm going to never settle for "Good enough." Good enough is neither good nor enough. I'm going to learn glass gilding and glue chipping at the Gold Rush next month. Spring is coming. The days are getting longer (thank God!) and I am going to advance confidently in the direction of my dreams (to quote Thoreau. I used to have the following taped to my wall over my desk. Tomorrow, it goes back up.
I learned this, at least, by my experiment: that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. He will put some things behind, will pass an invisible boundary; new, universal, and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within him; or the old laws be expanded, and interpreted in his favor in a more liberal sense, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. In proportion as he simplifies his life, the laws of the universe will appear less complex, and solitude will not be solitude, nor poverty poverty, nor weakness weakness. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
Peace and love, Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm excited about the Letterheads that are finding new markets for their talents. Ryan Young is a good example. If the usual market for custom graphics isn't attractive, why not do gun stocks or try to market your pinstripe designs as artwork? With the current Kustom Kulture fad, all sorts of new opportunities are happening.
Same with signwork. Instead of competing for the same old jobs that are no longer profitable, consider the antique sign market, interior murals for yuppie kids and their parents, faux finishes on metal garage doors...etc. etc. Find yourself a small pond and become a big fish in that pond.
Help me out here. What else can we use our signmaking skills for to generate new business?
In Mazeppa, I saw tired old metal cabinets turned into works of art that I know the public would pay big bucks for. Find a need and fill it!
[ February 24, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
The road to success is often a bumpy one. Most of us in the sign business had so much to learn when we started. I know I did!
First, I knew nothing about signs, or painting or carving or welding or anything. Good design is something learned over time. I knew NOTHING about business. And I was so impatient to get going!
It took me years to figure out that money I brought in to the business wasn't mine. First I had to pay the bills, cover expenses and reinvest in the business. After the taxes I then got the pidly amount that was left.
Initially I underbid most jobs. I know for a fact that my competition HATED me and with good reason too!
In the first years when I was starting out there were many times when I wondered how we would ever cover our bills. And there were times when there simply wasn't enough. Those were times when I had to cash in the pop bottles and go through the couch looking for enough change to buy groceries for my family. Been there - done that. I've bartered signs for food at a local restaurant. And it fed us when we needed it.
I've been up and down. I understand the frustration of working harder than anybody I know and realising very little for my efforts.
This I know by experience.
But I also experience DAILY the joy of creating wonderful projects with my hands, mind and heart. Over time I have learned not to trade this in merely for the joy of doing it, but instead to insist that I be paid for this valuable commodity. And be paid well!
For the work we do with such passion from the heart is worth much more than work done simply to make a dollar.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK Stevo, funny you should ask now, I just wrote down some more ideas 20 minutes before reading your response above.
I've had alot of ideas that I'm jazzed about lately, but this morning, reading Dan's response where he told of dedicating time each week to improving his abilities was like a confirmation that I should do the same. However I realized that I should kinda limit or guide my experiments/learning into ways that are related to ways that I'm allready making money (wages). If time and space permits, I might also tell of my more fringe ideas, but we'll see...
Some ideas: I have an 8' long lumber rack on my truck. In this part of the country, they're called ladder racks. Anyway I want to make an illuminated sign that's about 8" tall and 8' long, with my co name on it. It will be lit with neon, like the hip street cars have below. I had a quote from another shop of (I think) $91 for transformer and tubes.
I've done afew store windows that were spray painted on some of the lettering. At night it became a backlit sign, looked real nice. Some of the surrounding artwork was one shot heavily thinned with linseed oil, which looked like a stained glass window. So my idea is this: Since spraying on site is a real hassle, I wish there was a wide, clear, lower tack, enamel receptive vinyl I could spray signage on, the install at the customer's place. I'm aware of translucent vinyl, but paint offers me so many more posibilities.
Years ago, when I was 18 or something, I did an experiment. I took one of those slide projectors from the '50's and projected an image onto a big sheet of clear plastic. That kind of plastic is still available, I think it's called acetate, it's real slick on one side and rough or etched looking on the other. Anyway, I projected onto the rough side, focused it, and presto! it was a crystal clear sharp image on the other. I never did anything with the idea, but I thought a store owner could mount a projector near the cieling, then click it on at night, pull down a rolled up sheet of said plastic, and bingo, instant, backlit, changeable window ads. I had never seen a large screen TV at the time, I'm guessing that's sorta how they work.
If I could make a big enough sand blaster, I might find some rocks, blast messages like bible verses or other quotes into them to sell as garden accessories.
OK here's the fringe: I've been wanting to get into vehicle graphics, but I want to offer something different than all the flames and skulls and "ooh-bad"stuff. I don't want to sound too condescending, but I'm wondering if there's a market for artwork with more depth, philosophy, and meaning to it. So when a freind ordered a magnetic sign for the back of his van, I cut loose. It took a couple of tries, but I got what I wanted. It's like a form of surealism, but I call it "intersections". Probably not the first to do it, but it delivers the message. I don't have a digital camera, and the 35mm film isn't developed yet, so a brief desciption with words: The images of a globe, a 2x4 stud wall, and a blueprint are all relavent to the theme he wanted. I painted so that the images are superimposed over each other. You can see each one clearly, but where they meet, you can't tell which one is above the other, they intersect.
I wanted to start making paintings in this style, maybe sell prints, I dunno, gettin' carried away, loving the themes I was thinking of. Then a local guy talked to me about doing some graphics on the walls of the motorcycle shop he's opening. I thought maybe I could make a few of the paintings, on hardboard, something other than canvas, and display them in the showroom. They would be related to motorcycles, or that crowd, and if someone was interested, they could buy it, then I'd make another one.Save him money and give me an audiance. Sounds risky though. Back burner? hmmm...
The tag or sticker that comes with each painting will say: "Intersections... an ongoing series of illustrations whereby artist Jim Donahue expresses the convergance of the abstact & the physical, the eternal & the temporal, and the spiritual & the secular."
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wanted to make this a separate response, as it's other subjects. Mostly questions I guess, and I'm not being implicit or anything, just wondering.
150 G's a year in sales. Man, what an undertaking. I got my calculator out, and here's what it says: with no vacations, that's 52 weeks. Devided into 150,000, that's $2,884.6 per week. devide that by 5 days and you get $576.92 per day. I know this is sales and not take home, but it's also a one man shop.
What would SURELY wipe me out is the unexpected stuff. Even if I geared my efficiency up to bring in that kind of sales, I couldn't be consistant about production. Look at some of the posts here, there's often someone asking "hey whatta ya do when THIS happens?" I'm no different, I get bizzaro-here-to-fore-never-heard-of-events myself. How do you see 'em coming??? The missed product delivery, the customer that misses an appointment, etc. And that's just OTHER peoples goofs, not to mention my own.
Maybe I'm missin' it, maybe the trick is to knock out $800 in productivity on "normal" days to make up for lesser days. I'm an ex druggie, and I mean lots of the really hard stuff, so it's entirely posible that something's blowing right by me here, and I do remember what DOUG Allen has said before on this topic. He doesn't seem the kind to play fast and loose with the truth. Still, Even if I managed that much in sales, I can see a mountain of work backin' up in the shop.
Today I realized something else: before I made it sound like the prolifferation of machines was the reason for so much competition, but entry level in this trade has always been easy. Don't get me wrong, if there's anybody that has an idea how involved this art can be, it's me. But then as now, if you didn't know much, it just showed in the signs you made. You still made them.
Bill Diaz said some relevant things about people's perception of our importance.It's probably been mentioned before, but today I thought of getting actual price quotes from other advertising mediums, to have when making sales.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You don't have to do it alone James... sub off what you don't need to labor over and concentrate on your specialty... banners for me were a waste of time but subbing them off I could get a 200% mark-up (or I wouldn't do them).
I use this formula James... more like reality 46-48 work weeks a year avg. 24 BILLABLE hours/weekly (hours you actually get paid for) $150,000= $125/hr. in my glory days $10,000/week was average. the answer to Steve's question about alternatives to this bisiness... as many as there are people here. Just look at one inademate sp? object, like around here all the store front ice boxes look like crap. I knew a kid back in the 80's who use to go around refurbishing them... later he got all the fleet trucks and signage for that company. I know he was paid well for a service no one else wanted to do.
[ February 24, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
Stephen, I got an e-mail this morning that was similar to your response, but in it the man said to get good equipment.
Are we talkin' plotters here, printers, both? would a 24" plotter do? Is this kind of income from mostly vinyl?
Big phone book ad? mostly referals?
My reply wasn't to imply that it can't be done, just tryin' to figure out some of the details.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that to achieve the kind of numbers we would like to in this business you don't just have to raise your prices.
That's only ONE step.
You also have to select the better paying jobs and even specialize in a unique type work. If you keep on doing the same kind of business as everyone around you it wille be tough to raise your prices very high. You have to be able to offer something to your customers that justifies what you are asking.
This isn't done without a great deal of thought, research, practice and time.
But it is possible.
I do very unique cartoon concrete sculptures and signage. It's a specialized and narrow market, but there's very few folks doing it, But there's certainly enough demand to keep the crew and I busy and then some. Even a waiting list. And our customers are willing to pay excellent dollars for our work.
There's some folks doing oldfashioned gold or glass pieces that fall into the same category who keep themselves busy and make good money doing it.
Same goes for some carvers.
And I know there's pinstipers who do very well and command a good buck for their work.
As a muralist I did very well in years past, doing nothing but historical murals. And I was able to charge enough to make it pay very well.
It takes time to establish the reputation and clientel to do the specialty work alone. 'Normal' signwork would fill in the gap.
All this being said, I also know of 'starving' artists who do all of the above. And many do top quality work. Why is this??? Because they don't realise they are selling themselves short. Often its a lack of confidence or simply poor business.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dan, right now that sounds like the most concise reasonable explanation. I say that because the new phone book just came out, and there's something like 72 sign shops listed. This for the Knoxville area, which is not very big.
Also, I have to add that in the e-mail I mentioned earlier, the last thing the man mentioned was a winning attitude, which his customers wanted to be a part of.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just a quick note...I've skimmed over this thread and hope to come back later to it, but for now I must add this:
What Dan has said sounds the most logical and he has mentioned several other individuals and areas of specialization. What we all have to keep in mind also is that these people (Dan being the foremost example) are extremely good at what they do. Don't expect to do mediocre work and carry off the majority of the high end jobs and be able to demand top dollar for what you do.
In my area I am known as the most expensive sign man around, and yet I probably charge less than many on this BB. We don't do a wide range of work, but hopefully, get paid resonably well for what we do. My drawback is that I tend to get lost in the process and give the client more than he paid for...which is good for him but not so good for me.
Great thread. I will go back to reread each contribution later.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, a lot lot of great replies. This topic is going to get printed and filed. I just wanted to add that at a previous employer we did have daily financial goals. We expected to generate a minimum of $800 a day in billable work with 2 people. Most days we hit the goal. Some days were better, some worse, but, it averaged out. On a good job, I could knock out 24 Tractors in 3 days, start to finish - 2 doors, reg. numbers and air shield. We charged $175 each. That averages out to be $700 per day for 1 person. We had one or 2 of these per month. Throw in a few banners and some no parking signs and you can easily approch $1000 per day or more. Oh, and competition had nothing to do with our business. Our phone book had countless sign shops & quick print centers. Within a 15 minite radius, there were at least 10 other shops that offered similar services. Focus on what you do best, offer great service and charge accordingly. Most importantly, be presentable and have fun while doing it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
James... my best years ($180,000-$350,000) came from Fleet Graphics 95% Vinyl, at the time a 20 year reputation as a sign guy turn vinyl nerd, and direct marketing (face to face with the end user) and no yellow pages.
That said it matters not what you sell but how, profits come from how you manage yourself and your business. Being all things to all people just ain't smart for a one man gig. So you figure out what you know and excell at then find those that NEED you (most won't realize it till they meet you) then prove your abilities and follow up on every job.
In the fleet graphics business 40% of it was not applied but I personally delivered them to the person that needed them (not just some shmuck at the front door) every delivery resulted in more orders. Personal service these days is more popular than ever before.
There is no reason why the same can not be applied to selling plastic dog turds or whatever, Or like Grandad would say..."find yer niche an' scratch it"!
[ February 24, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
)I've looked at other trades pulling down money, and alot of them are associatted with debt. I'm not ranting against debt, that's you're own choice. I just wonder if money isn't so closely monitored if it's part of a house loan or such. I mean if people had to write a check for the full amount to the carpenter of electrician that built their house, Woe Jack! Maybe not, I'm just pondering.![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
) I think the problem is that most people haven't decided what, exactly, they want to accomplish...much beyond earning an honest living and maybe having a few creature comforts. This tends to lead to short-term thinking, like focussing more on saving money than on making it...whether buying equipment or materials.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
hahaha
Printer-friendly view of this topic