posted
Carrying on from another post I posted the other day ...it is apparent I'm not the only one that is amazed our profit margins are shrinking with the more sophisticated equipment it takes to do vinyl signage.
The only possible answer to this is to raise your prices.
On the surface that is easy to say...but here's the real truth...if everyone here would raise their prices a minimum of 10% across the board (on every job)...right now...the customer would never percieve the difference from $27.00 sign to a sign costing $29.50. Yet this increase will pay your income tax the following year. The next year as you increase again you will get to keep this years increase(next year) and pay your taxes(with the next increase) the following year.
Granted the cost of living will diminish it some...but the way we're doing it now that cost of living is coming right out of your diminished income now and you have no back-up for the taxes.
We've been doing this for a while now and it has payed off.
My goal is to be the highest payed sign people in our area by turning out a long lasting product...getting the money when the work is done and raising the level of the bar every year.
This cannot be considered "price fixing" as none of us get the same for any given project anyway.
My point here is...if you can purchase equipment that will 100% duplicate a Rembrant...why would you sell it for $5 or even $6.00 a sq. ft. when you should get $20.00 0r even $50.00 a square foot.
The obvious problem is that nearly everyone is so eager to get the job they are willing to "give it away" just to make sure the paynent is made on the equipment.
Best advise I ever got? "Raise your prices til they stop coming then level off". You can always back off a notch if need be...in the mean time Get all you can, you'll beneifit the industry and more improtantly you'll benefit yourselves.
I believe if we "lead" the industry this way others will jump on board when they see how much they are "leaving on the table"...right now the lowballers are leading because a lot of us following their lead in the big "give away".
If you think I'm nutz...look at some of the top notch people in this trade ...Jay Cooke...Mike Jackson...Dan Sawatzky...there's more of them out there too.
How about it!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
This is an excellent observation and a great idea!
I would also recommend that everyone who doesn't already use EstiMate Software* (or some other estimating software) buys a copy, installs it, commits the small amount of time necessary to setting it up properly...and uses it religiously! It can be a real eye-opener to see what some jobs really cost.
*EstiMate gets my vote...and there are no affiliations behind that comment. It's affordable, very user friendly, the service is excellent, and they are a Letterville Merchant to boot!!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I agree whole heartedly about this... the taxes, overhead, etc....
I just started my own business 2 yrs ago after a shop I worked at for 4 yrs. shut down. I have been trying to establish relationships with as many clientts as I can, so I have been willing to bite the bullet on most of my jobs charging about 10% over material costs because I feel that I earn my profit doing the installation(when required) and I work fast enough to get a return on that mark-up margin, but I am finding that I am not earning enough, nor am I satisfied with the ratio of; time invested:profit. ** See my Post under-COST OF INSTALLATIONS**
Now that I am gaining more clients and things are starting to grow I feel that I should charge what I am worth and for the high quality product I produce. I am not trying to be greedy, that is not my way nor do I want to take advantage of a client... even if they were to have deep pockets. My goal is to enjoy life, my career, as well as, earn a living and have fun!!
Also, I have Estimate Software and I think that I am going to spend as much time as I can this weekend inputting the data to get it running.
I believe that it is a delicate balance we try to uphold in this economy... everyone wants things for next to nothing and they are watching their expenditures so conservatively.
ShaBU
-------------------- Craig Shaub Dig-It All Sign Company 306-30th Avenue Kenosha, Wi 53144 262-553-9519 dig_it_allsignco@hotmail.com Posts: 34 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Jul 2002
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Monte, I am behind you 1000% because I to made that decision the first of this year and have been just as busy but on better higher paying jobs and as long as we QUIT SELLING SIGNS as sell it as it is "Advertising" and educate the customer on just that and compare apples to apples.
I hade a customer just yesterday that was interested in the cost of a van he had being done with a digital wrap from front to back when I told him he was looking at around 2500 to 3k for this he simply replied thats less than what I pay for 2 months on a local small billboard so the rest of the year is free advertising the way he approched it and is ready to move forward.
One thing that has allways bothered me in the sign business is we are the only industry that our prices are going down when everything else is going up, if you do not believe it look at invoices for several years back. as you said with the new technology if its faster it must need to sell cheaper. It is still advertising and is still generating income for the customer so charge accordingly. Look at what pinstripers get for thier services as an example .25 worth of paint and up to 200.00 bucks to stripe a car. no sign shop is anywhere near that profit margine and all should be.
No other form of advertising medium sets its prices anywhere near as low as sign shops do they get paid for it and we should to.
One thing I have found to be 100% true is if you offer Quality and educate the customer as to why you are selling Quality products and the long range effects they stop talking price. I have a small sign on the front of my shop that dedicates the building to my Dad and on the top of it, it has 3 letters QPI almost every one that comes in comments on the sign and ask about the QPI and I tell them that is the standards that were set for doing business by me and my Dad. It simply stands for Quality Pride Integrity, and the whole mood changes with the customer, it is also on my cards and I get more possitive comments on those 3 little words than anything else.
The money is out there we just have to quit leaving it on the tabble and put it our pockets. Lets keep rising the bar. Like you said everyone needs to commit so thier should be 8659 replies to this post of yours as that is how many or registered here.... we'll see.
posted
I have been doing this (annual price increases) for the last 3 or 4 years. No decline in jobs as a result.
Only been actually working for 3 weeks so far this year and it is WAY slower than any other year so far. BUT, that is because of weather/economy/whatever. My prices did rise 10% no matter how slow things are.
Craig...
quote:I have been willing to bite the bullet on most of my jobs charging about 10% over material costs because I feel that I earn my profit doing the installation(when required) and I work fast enough to get a return on that mark-up margin, but I am finding that I am not earning enough
I try very hard to keep my material costs down to 10% of the total selling price(not counting substrates, of course). Usually though it is closer to 20%. I would have been out of business within the first year by charging only 10% above material costs for a job. Maybe I am misunderstanding you???
If you have, say, $30 in material costs for lettering a vehicle, you are only charging appx. $33 for the job?
Or did you mean you mark up the material costs by 10% and then add on your labour to design, cut, weed, mask and apply the lettering?
Anyhow....Monte....I am with YOU on the whole matter of price increases.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
You are definitely on to something here. But I don't think it needs to be a conspiracy or even have to get others involved.
It's all about YOU.
It's about a radical change in attitude. First you need to believe in yourself and your abilities. You need a passion for your craft and a passion to continually raise the bar as far as quality.
If you are only putting out work as good as everyone else then you will have trouble getting more for your work.
Does your shop truck reflect this attitude? How about the front of your shop? And the showroom should be out of this world too.
Do your customers sense your passion and excitement for their project????
Do you have a reputaion as an outrageous creative problem solver??
Do you look successful to your client? Image is everything.
You don't have to own the biggest shop or drive a new truck... just present them in a wonderfully creative way.
It reminds me of a fellow I knew a while back who drove a beat up VW van as a shop truck. He was extremely talented but undercharged for his work horribly. He appeared poor and unsuccessful to his clients. He didn'teven letter his truck... but was waiting until he could afford a new one.
WHY???
I encouraged him to break out the paint and paint his truck with a roller. And letter it in the most creative way he was capable of. Make a head turner. Customers don't care what you drive. NO WAY. But they can see how it's lettered and how creative it is.
Never put yourself in the position of having to appoligise for your work, the mess of things in your shop, what your presentation looks like.
Instead make it outstanding. Mostly its about a little effort and a lot of creativity.
THen go out there and live the legend.
Charge for it too.
It won't aways be easy. BUt believe me it is FUN!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave, I was gonna ask the same thing. Over the last few years, I'm learnin' to mark-up my material dramatically. For a long time I used that 1.67 x total cost = 40% mark-up. I've taken to usin this: material cost times say, oh about 1.95! lol That's almost 100 percent mark up. But hey, it feeds the babies, and pays my bills, and I notice quality of livin' around here has gone up. I am also quite taken with marking up labor as well.
Since I had so much work, I was sure my low prices were the culprit. but, it seems like the higher I get with prices, the steadier the work is. I am now at the place where I have culled out the crap-jobs and all the people who just wanna play an' waste time. I am gettin' more an' more quality jobs at MY price since they're gettin' tired of jewin' with me because I'll mark-up that process too, lol! Anyway, as someone suggested, you can always back off a lil' if needed.
I got to lookin' at the gemini letters, for example . . .what I pay them and what the book says to charge . . .with their 40% catalog mark-up... them people aint helpin' me much at all, while they get their correct profit! They are not takin' into consideration all the other stuff involved in sellin' that job... So in order to make a fair profit for myself, I have marked-up labor on such "catalog" jobs to an almost ridiculous degree. I wish they would just make the things without the prices . . .
Anyway, great post Monte, ...anything that keeps me on my toes and not lolly-gaggin' around is wonderful thing . . .
posted
i have always been able to live on 3% if it cost $100 i sell it for $400 3% works for me.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm so glad to see this getting aired! Thanks Monte, it's so important and so many people miss it. Charging more is A-OK and is the way to do more than just survive.
I believe that we tend to "drift" towards a comfort level that is consistent with the money we are used to having; so unless we consciously set our prices where they should be to earn what we know we want, we will chisel and give away our work until we are sitting at our "comfort level."
Jon, thanks for the nod - it means a lot to me.
Craig, while you're setting up EstiMate this weekend, if you have any questions email me directly at mark@PricingMadeEasy.com and I'll get you some answers - although tomorrow I'm hiking so I can't email from the mountain!
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I mark up the material cost 10% to cover my time weeding and taping, then I add my installation charges, and design time. However, people don't like to pay for designs around these parts... they don't understand what it takes to design something and set up the files....
I am just getting started, so there is an aweful lot that I have to learn, obviously.
I like Si Allen's advice... "if you are getting more than 50% of the bids... you are not charging enough...."
Jon, I will let you know how it goes with Estimate....
-------------------- Craig Shaub Dig-It All Sign Company 306-30th Avenue Kenosha, Wi 53144 262-553-9519 dig_it_allsignco@hotmail.com Posts: 34 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Jul 2002
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Oh no! A cartel! A Trade Association! I believe Monte is right, and that Si's example is right on the mark. After you've done this work several years, there is some tedium that would be very good to leave the quikie-stikies to scrap over. What you want to sell is your knowledge.
The other day, I vectorized a simple logo in Corel and sent it as .eps to a shop who also uses Corel. They couldn't open it! In the next 2 or 3 e-mails, I got them to import it as PostScript Interpreted, which is common knowledge in Corel. Gee, maybe that town has room for a shop who can do it in 3 hours instead of 3 days!
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Another consideration: I don't know that there ever in history has been a country with as much money in it as this one (I worded that carefully).
You could have been born in a country where you thank God for a handful of rice, and pray that your neighbor has the same.
If you earn more, you can help more. It varies greatly by region, of course, but a little goes a long way.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Great post Monte! I'm still trying to keep away from the computor until I feel a bit better, but nothing concerns me more than seeing so many hard working, talanted Letterheads settling for so little. I'm one of you, but I finally realize that I am a victim of my own stinking thinking.
Fear and ignorance are our biggest enemys. Many of us have a exagerated fear of failure and/or fear of rejection. These fears took root in our past, but we still allow them to affect our decisions today. If we don't make a change in our thinking, we'll continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over. I like to think of fear as "false evidence appearing real."
Ignorance is another factor. I often hear it sail that creative people make poor business owners. That may have some merit, but it's not going to satisfy your kids when they have nothing under the tree at Christmas. Explaining you have to discount your work to compete with the competition isn't going to cut it either. It's time to stop fixing the blame and fix the real problem. Are you ready for an honest check-up from the neck-up?
Getting started is half the battle. How much do you need to make in order to pay your bills and maintain a decent standard of living? With that in mind, it's time to sit down and determine YOUR hourly rate. There's a wealth of information on how to do this at the SignCraft Website. Look at the article on determining your hourly rate by Jeff Cahill. Bookmark the following page.
Some of you are in for a big shock once you actually complete the exercise above. If your goal is to earn 40-50 grand a year, your hourly rate is going to be somewhere between 70-90 dollars an hour. It's a real hard dose of reality if you are currently feeling quilty charging $40 an hour. No wonder we're working 100 plus hours a week to just break even! It's a hard lesson to swallow, but at least we finally know.
Let's keep talking about this subject. It may not be as much fun as learning to stripe and do all the other great effects. Steve Parrish used to often comment that many of us were more concerned with learning the tricks instead of the trade. His words are more true today than ever. There's no reason we can't learn the business part along with the tricks.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
Steve we went through the same thing as you with our other business that I had for 27 years it was not in the sign trade but the lessons learned will work for any business. When you work like a dog for nothing or less for to long your business will fail and there is a good chance your health will also fail stress does funny things to your body and mind. I tried for years to get the people in our trade to raise their prices to cover the increases in labor, equipment and materials no one would a few years ago when things were booming every one started working for less money then when the work slowed up they kept on lowering their prices to get jobs. Now businesses in my old trade are closing left and right we were one of the casualties but at least we did not loose every thing when you start letting the competition set your prices lower than they should be to make a profit it is easy to get in to financial trouble.
One of our best software purchases that we made when we started our sign business was the Estimate program we us it all the time.
-------------------- Dennis Raap Raap Signs Posts: 839 | From: Coopersville, MI | Registered: Feb 2003
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If you cut your prices 2%, you must increase your sales 3.7%
If you cut your prices 5%, you must increase your sales 25%
If you cut your prices 10%, you must increase your sales 67%
If you cut your prices 20%, you must increase your sales 400%
What Happens When You INCREASE Your Sign Prices:
A 2% price increase means the same profit on 92.6% of the same volume of business.
A 5% price increase means the same profit on 83.3% of the same volume of business.
A 10% price increase means the same profit on 71.4% of the same volume of business.
A 20% Price increase means the same profit on 55.5% of the same volume of business.
Also, you can't base your prices on the cost of the materials for a job. For the most part, that has very little to do with the final product and what you made with it. You might do well on some , but could lose you butt on many others.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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A few big problems with many people in bizz for themselves.
Most of us are technicians trained to be very good with the techniques of our work. Most of us are more concerned with doing a great job than with making a lot of money. And, most of us are willing to work long and hard to do a great job.
But, because are great technicians we spent little time learning how to "run the BIZZ" part of our work. We make these basic mistakes.
Charge a price based on what the other guys are charging. Or charging less because we want to "take" the other guys customers. We let others set the bench mark for OUR work.
Let technology lower our prices because our job is easier and faster.
Very few have a systematic presentation system for selling a job. All to often someone says every job is different. Or, "I can't do that in my area".
All of this is nonsence. If other technical trades can do it world wide then we can do it too. Chiropractors are now high paid and respected all over the country. Most of thsi came from them banding together and developing marketing models.
So are we wiling to build like models??
We will make a pledge to charge what WE want to charge not based on what the other guys are charging.
To develope a systematic system of making a presentation.
And, let technology let us do MORE work in the same amount of time but charge the SAME as before if not more. This makes us MONEY)
And raise prices at least 5% a year to at least cover inflation.
Good ideas?? yes??
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I was lucky when I started my business. My future Father-in-law had started a pattern and model making biz and he taught me what it cost to run a business and make a profit. Some folks think I'm a little over the top when I run a stop watch on every job. Time IS money.......MY Money! I refuse to waste either.
Just my 2 cents........
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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What a great post, Monte! I absolutely agree with you - and everyone else here - that as skilled sign makers we're not taking home the profits that we should.
I'm gonna disagree a bit with you, though. I think that not charging enough money for our services is a SYMPTOM of our problem, not the CAUSE.
The CAUSE of low income is our ignorance about business in general; and our ignorance about marketing in particular.
For example, we frequently criticize retailers for having ugly signs. We all know that the greatest chef in town probably won't have the most financially successful restaurant in town if they have ugly and unappealing signage. Just like us sign makers, a highly skilled chef will suffer with low profits because of their ignorance about marketing.
Raising our prices is essential for earning a comfortable living. But raising our prices WILL drive away some percentage of our customers. We'll go out of business if we don't replace that revenue with new customers. So our first step - our root solution to the root cause of our problem - is to land ourselves some new (and better) customers that are willing to pay higher fees for our services.
Just as we would advise our local gourmet chef: first improve the marketing, and then raise the prices to balance the production capacity.
-------------------- Jack Leyden Jack's Signage 1330 "H" East St. Andrew Place Santa Ana,CA 92705 Posts: 22 | From: Santa Ana,CA | Registered: Nov 2001
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Everyone has posted much of what I have been preaching for many years. One big issue is to not let competitors set your prices. Once you set your own prices for YOUR work, you no longer have competition. We still have QuikPrice software and will begin advertising the new edition here this year. The research we have done since 1991 on the topic has taught us a lot about the bad habits that most of us have developed. I catch myself going longer than I should to adjust my pricing but if you have a system of pricing set up, it is easy to make the necessary adjustments. Having software such as "Estimate" or "QuikPrice" makes it much easier to let it do the hard work of pricing while you do the other hard work of making signs.
I have an appropriate Jack Rumph story which I think is appropriate to tell since he passed away last year. When he was first putting together and selling his Signwriters Pricing Guides we had a number of conversations. He told me about one early customer somewhere in the southeast who called him demanding his money back that he had paid for a book. (I think the price was 2 or 3 bucks then) Jack asked him why and the fellow said that the prices were so high in the book that he could never get them where he was. Jack made a bold effort and challenged the guy to use the book on all his jobs for one month and Jack would make up any losses out of his own pocket. His wife was listening in the background and thought he was crazy and would banckrupt them with such an offer. The agreement was made and Jack did not hear from the fellow in a couple of months so he thought he had better call and find out the results. When he reached the guy, he said he was too embarassed to call. It seems that he had lost half of his customers but had more than doubled his profits. You know the rest of his story.
The point is exactly the one that Monte has suggested. Breaking the $100 per hour barrier is not that difficult when you consider current overhead costs. My attorney is charging $250 an hour and so is my doctor and goodness knows they keep close tabs on what their operating costs are. I think I am worth at least half what they are, maybe more, aren't you?
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Chiropractors, dentists, doctors, lawyers, Martial Arts, bizz people all goto technical training seminars all the time. The ones that go do much better. The ones that go and are good at their work do great.
So do letterheads. They go to meets and learn techniques for their work. And, all have a great time too.
A rising tide raises all boats. Is there any one who has collected and cataloged the top 15 successfull sign shop bizz techniques and offered them at meets? This is what the Chiro's did. This is what the Dentists did. This is what the Martial Arts people did.
Letterheads do not have any one doing anything at these seminars on a professional presentation system. A systematic method of getting the cusomer to buy something and weeding out the tire kickers.
Every bizz has them tire kickers but many have ways of getting them to spend or getting them out too.
The 80% rule says 10 calls should bring in 8 apointments which should equal 6 sales. (hmmmm thats about Si's estimate of 50 %). Anything less than that means there is something missing in the presentation.
What do we do to get more money making bizz?
1: increase the number of callers. 2: get the stats up to 6 sales 3: charge the right amount. 4: look and act and talk like we can do the work.
We are acting like individual states with our own little laws. Great! Some are big states and some are looked at like banana republics. Some do really great work but don't make a lot. Some do plain work but make a lot.
Has any one catalogged what people are charging for what? I mean what WE are charging. Not what the price guide says.
It would be interesting to see the real numbers. I would guess some of us are really working too cheap and some of us are making good money but not enuf work. Some are doing great with periods of low volume that stresses us out.
I need to know all.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I think this is a great post. It needs REAL atention. REAL suggestions and REAL answers. Read my post "Money and the Sign Biz"
I'd like to suggest we create a Salary Guide for this industry. I'd be happy to be the one to get it started, crunch the numbers and distribute it back if enough people are willing to share.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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We just raised our hourly rate for designing and consulting to $120 per hour. And it does sound like a lot of money on the surface. The customer isn't only buying time, but ideas. And the money collected isn't my personal money, it belongs to our company. I only get what's left after every single bill is paid.
Unless I charge out at least 3 times what I personally hope to make hourly, the company has little hope of making a profit.
Same goes for employees. Only more so. Not all the hours spent at work are productive or billable.
The number of hours spent organizing, cleaning up, on breaks, and in between jobs really adds up though the week. This doesn't count fixing mistakes, or redoing botched projects. But time (and our payables) march on regardless.
There's lots of other things to factor in as well. I consider myself in a continuing education program. And I spend considerable time each week reading, researching, experimenting and learning. This is for my own benefit as well as for the good of the current project underway. Same goes with my crew.
I also always try to exceed my customers expectations on every single job we tackle. Way over the top. We do more on every single job than the plans show. But we need to make money to stay in business. And this extra work is bid into each job.
All these things prevent me from shaving my margins. Rather, they are the reason WHY I need to charge a good buck for what I do.
The substancial profits allow us to do better work each and every time we go out.
We call it wiggle room. By purposly bidding high on each job we get, it allows us to raise the bar as far as quality. It allows us to include ideas we think of as we do the job. It allows us to ignore the plans a little and make each project better. It allows me to worry about what I am producing instead of simply survival alone. And that's a lot more fun to worry about!
I WANT a reputation of being the highest price around. Without a doubt! It weeds out the price shoppers and tire kickers.
Along with the expensive reputation, I want the reputation of being over the top creative, outrageously so. And I want the reputation of delivering true value.
And believe me... it works!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Advice is only good.IF it is used!! My first Letterhead meet was in 1997,where I learned to go back,raise my prices 10%(keep track) See how many customers I lost in my first month of application. ZERO was the answer! The NEXT thing I learned was to RAISE my quality of work and charge more! Made the same amount of money in LESS TIME. My next venture was Chip Carters book about running the business,to include.."Looking like you ran a business" This EVOLUTION from...Being in the sign business to Being in the business of Signs. Allowed me the benifits of building a BETTER SIGN SHOP(ducksoup 2001) Traveling to Live Letterhead Meets Specializing in hand lettering and the confidence to say NO!! to customers,in order to open the door to say YES to better paying customers.
These actions were the very hardest things to do. Yet the very easyest things I have done.
GREAT POST Monte
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:the confidence to say NO!! to customers,in order to open the door to say YES to better paying customers.
I would add also 'to say YES to the TYPE OF WORK YOU WANT TO DO'
This is the key!
One of the hardest things for me to do continually is just this. Say no to work I don't really want. Especially if I am feeling low in spirit or wallet.
Its a matter of seeking and accepting the type of work you want to do. But you have to set yourself up for success not failure.
Do all you can to make this possible. Does your shop vehicle feature the work you want to do. How about your portfolio, showroom, the front of your building?
Do you look and act like a specialist in your field. Are you passionate in your quest for knowledge in your field? Do you appear successful? Are you confident?
And do you charge like an expert? Early in my carreer I actually lost some great jobs because I didn't CHARGE NEARLY ENOUGH. But the folks looking for someone to do the work didn't want to deal with beginners and my suggested fee stated that clearly I didn't know what I was talking about.
And I can say now that I've consented and was awarded to lots of work in the past not knowing how I was going to pull it off. That said I also didn't sleep until I figured it out!
You CAN be anything you set your mind on achieving.
I don't buy the statement that it isn't possible in 'your town.' I live in YARROW B.C. population 1100 people. Before that I lived in Chemainus population 3500. Neither was a hotbed of the theme world when I moved there or even near it and they never will be. And yet I have a long waiting list of jobs that will keep me and my crew busy for a long time to come.
You can't go through your life simply wishing that you are going to be something else. You have to actively implement a stategy that will take you there. Take a small step towards your goal each and EVERY day. Even if you only get to work 10 minutes each day towards your goal - at least you have made some critical progress.
Most of my dreams have taken years and years of planning and work to accomplish. But we have realised many great dreams.
The best part is that with each realised dream we have greater skills and resources to continue towards even bigger dreams in the future.
Believe me, you haven't seen anything yet!
Live the dream!
-dan
[ February 22, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have seen it all here around the Sacramento,CA area. Prices were dictated by the way the state did business. I was called to the capitol once to do three high end style signs for the capitol offices. Special milling of redwood to spec thickness, gold leaf pms colors etc. An agreement was reached at time of second meeting and signed. Job was finished and at delivery a check was agreed to. They then say it's not ready and go ahead and install. Install was not on the agreement. I say no check no get signs. They say they will pay now if I give them a 30% discount. I say no. I give them two weeks to pay or else. Bottom line? The three custom panels were sanded down repainted and lettered with horses names and looked great on the stall gates. Lesson? Stand yer ground absolutely no one has the right to push you around period. Not even the state of California!
Get rid of the non pay and you will make MONEY!
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I have imported 12 years of construction experience into the sign industry building absolutely any kind of structure imaginable... well, except a bridge....
And I have learned much from my mentor Jeff Vrstall and the other Letterheads who have shared their extensive knowledge with me, as well as, studying books by Mike Stephens.
The jist of it is that my girlfriend, who is a corporate executive for Bombardier Recreational Products, says that I am crazy for starting a business when I don't have a clue as to do the most important part... which is run a business. I feel that I have all the other skills necessary from designing, manufacturing, and installing, but there is that one crucial part that I lack in.
You're right about the fear of failure and the rejection... how do I pay the bills if I don't get the work?? And if I don't get the work to pay the bills... how will I succeed? I find myself comprimising what I charge just to get work.... It sounds like the thing that gets us all is that we should just stick to our brushes and squigies and dictate the costs to the clients instead of vice versa....
ie- I did a Channel Letter sign for a friend of a friend... I figured it would be good exposure and experience.... It was the first time doing this sort of sign so I researched, studied, and conversed with the transformer engineers and various persons in the field so that when I went to do the job I felt like I had done a dozen of them already. Anyway, my client barely had enough money to pay for the materials, much less pay me to install them. So, in order to recover the labor costs from this job I made an agreement with him that he would do some designs for me that I can input into my programs and apply effects to for vehicle graphics since he is a tattoo artist(Black Pearl Tattoo)... there is a banner I made for him posted and a post on the Channel Letters....I figured that I would recoup the money in other jobs down the road....
The truth is... If you don't have the money... how can you buy a sign. It seems that in todays market and economy that everyone wants something for nothing... and some of us are just riding along with it....
I guess it is all part of the game....
-------------------- Craig Shaub Dig-It All Sign Company 306-30th Avenue Kenosha, Wi 53144 262-553-9519 dig_it_allsignco@hotmail.com Posts: 34 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Odd sometimes to see a post make such a turn from discussing getting more money for your work to how not to get money for your work ...but let's discuss it.
If we don't get paid for a job... "we" can blame the customer all "we" want but the facts are "we" blew it.
There are plenty of people out there that are willing to take advantage...it's part of our job description to see that it doesn't happen.
Everyone us must make sure down money is supplied 1/3... 1/2... or paid up front it doesn't matter ...once you have the "down" you are in the drivers seat...you're also "obligated" to keep your good word and see to it the customer gets what he/she paid for and sometimes more.
Now that you have the down money and the product is complete, the customer will not back out of the deal (because of their investment)if you're thinking right you set it up to get the "payment on completion" not 30...60...or 90 days down the road.
For all that follow this path...success is yours...for those that don't...an on going delima of how to survive will haunt you.
Truth is, this trade, like any other business comes down to one pretty signifcant fact..."Get the Money"
Never...never give away anything...why? It's simple... "no business can afford it"!
Please don't take any of this as arrogance on my part...you see... I've made all these mistakes too but I've learned from them. My hopes are that I can keep others from getting their diplomas by graduating from the "school of hard knocks" by passing along some well intentioned opinions.
I hope people here benefit from them
[ February 23, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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