posted
Hello all, I skimmed over the posts about the middle of the road 4x8 prices and ran across quite a few names of products I don’t totally recognize. I have used MDO since I started, and being in a remote part of the country, I don’t see all the new materials. Here is a list of materials I gleaned from the post:
Econolite Omegaboard Crezone Diabond Alumalite
So, here are my questions: 1: How thick do these materials come in? Which thickness do most people use? 2: How much does a sheet of each cost in those thicknesses? Picked up? Delivered? Does your local lumber yard or sign supply stock it for you…or special ordered? 3: Can you cut them with standard circular saws and jig-saws? Special tools? Can you easily round the corners on a panel with a 4” radius? 4: I know about Sign Foam, Precision Board, and PVC sheets, but can you cut letters out of any in the list above? 5: Assuming you were doing a sign for a real estate project or development, using two 4x4 posts about 6 feet apart, which one is best. Would you need 2x4 stringers or back supports?
In general, I am just looking for some background on each and their best applications.
Thanks in advance,
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Omega is PVC veneered plywood or MDO. NUDO white wood is an alternative made here in C Central Illinois in Springfield.
Dibond is a tough polyethelene(I think) fluted plastic like coroplast (only much more durable) and covered with aluminum. It comes in various thickness from very very thin to thicker, like 1/4 inch.
The Dibond reps were showing me samples that had been run through a CNC router. Very creative effects can be achieved. If one cuts through the top side of Dibond, they can fold it over to create a nice finished edge, like a pan face or box lid effect, and that would be the tip of the ice burg.
Alumalite is sort of like Dibond, both sides being the same color usually, as in Econolite which is the single face version.
Those who make Dibond are the same people who covered SPACESHIP EARTH in Disney World's EPCOT theme park ( That would be that huge geodesic ball that is EPCOT'S icon. The material is just more elaborate, thicker, more architectural friendly.
Others may be able to help with additional information.
[ January 19, 2004, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
I am an MDO guy as well. I've got some samples from my supplier, but I haven't use any of the new stuff.
To me the stuff with aluminum sheeting on both sides looks cheesy, even for a real estate sign. Too shiny and smooth. I don't like the edge caps you have to put on it.
I'm stickin' with MDO or sometimes pre-painted MDO is nice to have around. They call that VIP board here, LOL
Cheers
[ January 19, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Actually Dave, I beg to differ, Dibond is not fluted like coroplast, it is aluminum laminated on a solid plastic core. It is produced by Alusuisse Composites - www.alusuisse-comp.com A similar product is Alpolic made by Mitsubishi Chemical America. Laminators Inc makes Alumalite which is similar to Econolite I believe. They also make D-lite which is a 1 sided version with an unpainted aluminum backer. Omega Lusterboard is a plywood faced with painted aluminum, Omega signboard is a plywood with a vinyl laminated surface. They are also manufactured by Laminators incorporated. If you go to the manufacturers websites and email them they will send you samples of their products. They will also help you hook up with a supplier. Crezone is another name for MDO. Of the aluminum coated products, I'm most impressed with Dibond and it is actually cheaper here than the coroplast cored versions. Nice and easy to work with - very lightweight, but quite tough. I am paying aprox $100 Can for a 2mm sheet. Alpolic which appears to be the same type of product has some interesting colors available including a couple of woodgrained and metallic versions. Hope this info helps, like I said, send for samples - that way you can judge for yourself and it makes it easier to sell it to your customers if they can see what you are talking about.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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For information on Dibond, go to the Merchants' Page and click on the one between Estimate and LazerLines. Omegaboard, alumalite and econolite are manufactured by Laminators Inc. Their website is www.signboards.com
Both sites have plenty of info.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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I use a lot of Dibond. Last year our local MDO supplier stopped stocking 4x10's and kept a limited supply of 4x8's. They said that most shops are using alternative substrates. I'd been using only MDO (for over 20 years). Dibond is cheaper and a pleasure to work with.
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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I use the econolite on metal buildings and block walls. It is much lighter in weight than omegaboard. It being aluminum and plastic makes it very weather resistent. I use 1/4" econolite and 1/2" omegaboard. I don't put the econolite up on posts simply because of it twisting since it is so thin. I use the omegaboard for post mounted signs. I have found Dibond to be pricey and customers seem to think it is too thin to hold up. I like it, but they don't.
I am one of those corrugated users. I use the 1/2" for auction and real estate company signs. They are either 4'x4' or 4'x8'. They put them up with zip ties and metal fence posts.
[ January 20, 2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: DONALD THOMPSON ]
posted
Donald, it's interesting that you find Dibond pricier than the coroplast versions. I have had the opposite experience here - perhaps it is because the Dibond is more widely used. I like the fact that no edge treatment is needed on Dibond. Although I have been told that people in our area are using Aluminite and Econolite w/o sealing the edges, I am not willing to take the chance of ice building up inside and causing delamination of the surface, (not to mention the fact that it is a great hidey hole for insects) so any exterior project using those needs some type of edge treatment IMO. I also feel that the Dibond is a little classier looking. I've noticed that some of the coroplast cored materials faintly show the lines of the coroplast. I guess I'm just more confident in Dibond, and in all honesty I haven't much experience with the coro versions. Mike - Dibond comes in different thicknesses. It is very easy to cut - I've even cut rounded corners with a heavy duty scissors. You can rout, saw and drill it very easily. It needs some type of backing if it is to be a large freestanding sign (stringers or plywood backing). A 4'x8' sign of 2mm would require at least 3 horizontal supports (top, middle and bottom) if it has to stand the wind. You also need to use washers if you are screwing it onto stringers or the screws would probably pull out. There seems to be a lot of possibilities for this product. You could cut letters etc. from it - they would be like thin metal letters. It seems to be the preffered method of backing HDU.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Hi all, I guess I am still trying to find the best replacement for MDO when used outdoors as a construction sign, placed between two posts. That's probably what do most with MDO, so I am interested in the right material, thickness and cost. If a sheet of 3/4" MDO costs me $55 and I have to seal the edges, prime it and paint it, I know I have around $120 in the panel before I put the first letter on it.
If mounted between two posts, all it takes is about eight normal screws. If I buy other thinner products and still have to back it up with plywood (which also needs protecting) or with 2x4 stringers, that would need to be considered in the oveall picture and cost. And, I end up cutting MDO to a myriad of sizes, which only takes a circular saw, table saw, or jig saw. So, to accurately compare products, I need to know if I need special tools to easily cut the panels to smaller sizes and shapes. We seldom put a sign that has a solid white background, so another variable is the ability of the substrate to reliably take on a new finish coat. Lastly, my local lumber yard carries MDO, so I don't pay shipping costs. I am unfamiliar with the stocking habits of other suppliers around the country, but it seems if you don't have a local supplier for all these sheets of materials, you'd have to pay shipping to get it to you can the final true cost of the sheet would need to reflect that fee.
The question that spurred my post related to the cost of a run of the mill 4x8, and there was quite a range of prices and a broad range of products. While it wasn't a scientific survey, my mind originally thought of a construction sized 4x8 sign that might need to be mounted on posts. It wasn't spelled out of course. Other people might have assumed the 4x8 might be mounted to the face of a building, and in that case, the thickness and rigidity would not have mattered.
But for my question, I AM wondering about something similar to 3/4" material suitable for outdoor use.
Any further details on any of the products would still be appreciated. A few years ago a new product was introduced as a replacement for MDO which had a vinyl topcoat. It looked good, but paint would not stick to it, only vinyl. I am trying to eliminate the heartburn of finding out the hard way that a material is not really suited to my needs.
Thanks again,
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I am familar with Omega, Alumalite & Ecnolite. These are made by Laminators Inc. (www.signboard.com). I am a big fan of anything they make, great product, awesome customer service & warrenty's on the sub-straights. I would give them a ring, they will send you a full color catalog, as well as install tip's, ets. Here is there number: 1-800-523-2347.
posted
i use 10 mill alumacore mounted between 2 pvc post all the time. i put a 1.75x3 pvc pickett top and bottom for looks and have never had any problems. with a good helper i can have it ready to put up in 2 hours.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The only product I havent used yet in your list is Crezone ( I dont know what that is ). Although products like Alumalite and Econolite are pretty much ready to use they are a corregated core and need a trim cap, eliminating 2 important factors in MDO, 1) strength 2) custom shapes with sealed edges.
Dibon on the other hand needs no trim cap has a solid PVC core and is durable to a point. I personally would NOT trust a 4'x8' sheet between 2 posts with some kind of support. In smaller sizes the 1.8" thickness is extremely strong and cost effective around 80 some odd dollars a sheet.
I still use a lot of MDO for it is THE multipurpose substrate still in my shop.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yep, I was wrong, Dibond has a solid core. I could have swore it had these very tiny flutes, but its just my bad eyesite!
Construction / Job site sign? Omega or Nudo White Wood, with edge caps. Done deal!
Business sign mounted on brick wall next to the entry doorway? DIBOND PERIOD! ( except if you are doing a nice sandblasted sign )
Sign hanging on a chain link fence with arrow and instructions where that semi load should be delivered: Alumilite (if yellow or a color) Econolite if white. might need edgecaps if viewing is closer, but the edges look tacky either way.
You get the idea!
Oh...forgot, Alucabond is Dibonds older brother, and its Alucabond that is used for the heavy duty architecural signage applications and covers the entire frontge face of franchise stores like CIRCUIT CITY.
[ January 20, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Alumacore is almost identical to Alumalite, but made by a different company.
Mike, I had an Alumalite sign take on an F1 tornado. The tornado twisted the 30 foot steel wide flange beams a little, (I over engineered it to take 125 mph winds with a future sign on it). The Alumalite panels (5 on each side) stayed on just fine. There is no need to back Alumalite with plywood. I simply put pan head screws around the perimeter every 16 inches.
For a construction site sign I would use econolite (painted one side, the back side is shiny aluminum) and pin it to 2 poles down the 2 sides. More than enough strength to go a year or two during construction.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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When it comes to substrates I think it's like anything else, it's mostly what is easiest for you to get, cost efficient, and what you try and like.
I used to use nothing but mdo. A few years ago I started trying new stuff. I think each of these products mentioned above have good and bad things about them and each has a better specific use.
I have used dibond in place of .040" aluminum if I want something that's more rigid.
Laminators Inc. says any of these can be mounted between two posts and do not need any edge cap to hold up out doors.
I have a few hundred sheets of both Econolite and Alumilite that have been installed in a variety of ways over the past few years and I am very happy with them.
Obviously prices vary. I just listed the ones above to give you an idea of cost. I have a few suppliers that deliver to me so not sure about delivery costs for you.
Edit: Either of these can be cut in the same way you cut mdo.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
[ January 20, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Spradling ]
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I also use pvc...it comes in solid sheets which are white, and also primary colors.One brand name is Sintra...not sure of others....
It comes in mil sizes, but the ones I get are like 1/8,1/4, and 1/2. It expands and contracts more than other substrates, so you need to install it "loose" with the screw holes larger than the screw. You can also get 18"x24"packs of the stuff..around here its a good real estate sign choice...usually cheaper than aluminum. It will accept both vinyl and one shot, also latex.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I used to use a lot of PVC, but these days I hardly touch it. I have gotten bit too many times with it's brittleness and exterior durability issues. I used to prefer it to coro, still do as far as looks, but the exterior life is in the toilet for stuff like 18x24's or 2'x3's...
posted
Dibond users... will i be able to mount a 5ft wide piece of 3mm dibond between two RTS 4x4 extruded aluminum posts without backing the dibond? I used dibond to make a wall mounted sign and, as others in the posts above have said, it is nice to work with. The only problem i see with it is that some their color schemes are two colors, one on each side (e.g. bronze on one side, silver on the other). Thanks in advance.
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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Mike ...knowing full well what you are used to Let me recommend Dibond...I use it every chance I get...I always buy the white it is 2 sided and perfect for putting in frames or installed s.f. with stringers.
If you scuff the ssurface slightly with a red scotchbrite you can paint it any color you like...One Shot or Automotive...without priming.
It's a little pricey but it is also one heck of a product ...I have a buncccch of these signs at O.U. golf course for over 5 years now and they look likey went up yesterday.
Call Jeff at Midwest and have him send you some samples.
You won't like the fluted material "Econolite" because of where you are (if it gets water in the flutes and freezes it will rupture the face) unless you put these cheesey little plastic strips around the edge (that never stay on)and it collapses when you screw it down (thats attractive too).
See ya!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Hi all, I'll have to check on the Diabond material. We don't have a supplier locally, so each sheet will have some additional shipping from either Salt Lake or Denver.
I still have a few questions, even with Dibond. Can you cut it easily with a circular saw, table saw, and jig saw? Do you use a down-stroke blade with the jig saw? If cutting with a router and template, do you need to use CRC oil?
Is the sheet of material covered with a protective sheet for use with a saw or cutter, or do you have to apply transmask to protect the smooth surface while milling? We don't own a CNC router, so everthing has to be cut with hand tools, and these issues are very important.
Thanks to all who have taken time to answer, and if anyone has more to add, I am still very interested.
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Mike, You can use jigsaws, circular saw and table saw on the Dibond. On the jigsaw I use a 10-15 tpi blade with teeth pointing down. On the circular or table I use a multi-tooth carbide finishing blade set to cut just past the depth of tooth.
Just make sure you have sharp blades as the metal in the material dulls them faster. Otherwise, it cuts as good as plywood. I take a file and hone the edges a little to knock off the sharp corners.
Wear your safety glasses because this stuff spits tiny pieces of plastic and metal at you and is no fun in the eye. (ask me how I know)
It does have a protective plastic sheeting on one side.
Dibond can be roll bent, too if you have a setup for that and a small v-groove can be routed across one side and then bent in a 90.
DiBond is a great material when it fits. Cuts easily with all woodworking tools(except chisels) to just about any shape you can imagine. It does have a protective coating, but only on one side. As far as finishing the edges, a file works fine, but I have discovered that a palm sander works faster and leaves the edge very smooth.
DiBond will take any type of paint that will bond to a pre-painted surface.
The only problem I have had with DiBond is that it contains a LOT of static electricity. When cutting, the plastic chips from the core tend to stick almost as if they were glued.(maybe not quite that bad) Also, if you have any vinyl flooring(tile or linoleum) you will want to keep sawdust swept away from walking paths, and be sure to wipe feet well before entering vinyl floored areas. The aluminum chips stick to shoes like crazy.
I use a LOT of DiBond, but I still use a lot of MDO also. You kinda have to use them both to determine which is best for each project.
Shipping fees are nothing compared to "crating fees" if you are ordering small quantities. On a single sheet the crating fees can be more than the price of the sheet. Having a supplier that delivers is a definite plus.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2273 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I would definately throw on some stringers and maybe back up the dibond with some 3/4" ply especially if yer around the wind down there in South Pass. Also the Dibond looks better than MDO with that Wyoming blush. (bullet holes).
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
here's another dedicated Dibond fan. We use it for all kinds of applications, but particularly for hiway billboards, 8x12 and 8x16. Always use five horizontal stringers. The only problem, and it's not onerous, is the thin line of black poly thet shows between the aluminum laminations... i use a small, very sharp block plane so it doesn't show between the boards. It's not a problem if the boards are painted out. Gave up using Crezon {MDO} a long time ago as the quality is so bad on the stuff we get here that I had a half a lift delaminate and had to redo seven big signs! For jobs that require it, I prefer signply,a hardwood plywood...practically no voids...with aluminum facing on both sides. Takes paint and vinyl like a dream, very strong and durable. Trade name, I think, is Lusterboard.
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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Coroplast, well I'm trying to forget, I love this product. I also buy and sell some I happen to have access to. It's 24"x48"x3mm in varying colors. I also have Alucobond 24"x48" and 24"x 62" sheets. I sell them for 25.00 ea. for those who can use pcs. this size. As great as it is I would'nt advise using large sheets without stringers in post to post standing situations. I change the background color by simply using vinyl and so far that has worked for me. The Alucobond however is a "construction grade" material and is thicker and stronger. In the sizes I've mentiond it works extremely well.
posted
Mike, depending on the viewing distance of the site sign, and in my experience, the abuse it gets-vandalism etc, we have been using 10mm coroplast with AMAZING results.
It is a hair over 1/2" thick, and we just run stringers across the back of either a movable frame or direct imbedment 4x4's.
We fill the edges in with white caulk and with multi colored digital prints on the face, you hardly notice the corrugations as they are spaced further apart than on the 4mm stuff.
There is one that we modeled ours after (many different improvements) that has been up for over 7 years and still looks great!
We screw it into the support system with 2-3" drywall screws (depending on where we are fastening-stringer or 4x4) with 1.25" dia galvanized fender washers.
We do so many that we know where our fastening placement will be, that I print out extra strips of the printed face and cover the washers and screw head with that for a "no-show" installation.
Our clients are happy that they aren't spending a ton of money on a sign & install and we can knock these out in 2 hours plus print & design time. So if we get a call in the AM for the sign, we can have it installed at site by the PM. SPEEDY!
I often give clients the option to install themselves and explain how to build the structures we use, with an instructional sheet, tell them where to find the hardware, to fill the edges and let them do it themselves, along with the printed pieces already cut into circles for them to install. Less PITA for us, they get to be "hands-on" and "save" some $$ and it is out of our hair.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Another "construction grade" material that is quite similar is Alpolic. I used to buy good size cut offs of Alpolic from a clean room manufacturer for $1.00 per square foot.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've been happy with a product Alupanel which is similar to dibond in 3mm x 4' x 8'. It comes in more colors and has mirror and brushed metal finishes available. Price fro my supplier out of Springfield Mo is $85-$92/sheet depending on the finish you choose.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Mike, I prefer to use aluminum composite material on most jobs. This is similar to dibond except that it has a clear center instead of black. It is called Signabond,Poly Metal(what Nudo calls it), & Reynobond(made by a local Reynolds Aluminum plant in GA). This material is not what I would use for a 4'X 8'installed between two posts. I still use 1/2" MDO for that application. Here is a job cut out of the .125 aluminum composite material.It was painted with automotive paint. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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if your looking for q substrate for a construction sign just use 1/2" coroplast. its lightweight cheap and wont dent like aluminum. back it good with 1x4 and 2x4 mounted on 4x4 post.
I thought you were talking about a nice permanent sign. construction signs get abused, torn down why waste alot of time and effort on expensive materials
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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