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We've got a park out here with a nature trail. On the trail are several typical trail signs framed, at the insistance of the town, with 2"x 2" pressure treated lumber (posts too). A couple of local teens love to ride by (two up) on their dirt bike and take out the posts with an aluminum bat. I'm replacing the signs with 2"x2"x1/4" square steel tubing, faux finished to look like pressure treated lumber. Will this insure the most wrist and forearm damage or should I fill the tubing with cement..Heh, heh, heh...
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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What is that quote... "If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, how will you find the time to do it over?" Do the job right, go for the cement.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Great idea Terry....but be careful. I had problems some years ago with kids whacking my mailboxes. I was going to put a steel tube type post in, fill it with cement, sit back and take great satisfaction when they came around swinging the bat again.
But a relative, a state trooper, who I told of my scheme advised me against it. He said if they wrecked their arm or worse they could sue my butt off. They could actually admit in court of their repeat vandalism to a standard mailbox (or sign in your case) and then contrast it to the overkill of the new construction thereby proving intent to cause harm.
I begrudgingly opted for a Rubbermaid mailbox instead...and although they have tried, those new plastic box systems take all the fun out of it .... they just go, "Boing" and are almost indestructable.
I'm with you though...it would be great fun to see some punk's arm vibrate like a tuning fork. But the courts defy logic these days.
Cabela's has a battery operated motion sensing camera that mounts to a tree. The battery is supposed to be good for several weeks and it takes a picture or series of pictures (you program it)when it detects motion (you select the sensitivity). It's meant for wildlife shots, but sounds like it would work good in your case for police evidence against the perps.
I think they are discontinuing one model..and seems like it was about 60-80 bucks. Check it out at www.cabelas.com
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bob, you got that right. Justice these days is being stupid enough to spill hot coffee in your lap, but smart enough to make a million dollars off your own negligence.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I've done my homework on this one guys and girls. This isn't a mailbox, it's signage on public property. My wife works for a law firm and I've already spoken (off the record) with an attorney. Let the games begin...
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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We have a saying in Wyoming, and it goes like this: Shoot, Shovel and Shut up. I'd go for cement and some paino wire strung at neck height. Just a thought.
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Gosh I think that a steel poll faux grained is a standard professional sign install. What about all you other experts? This is a standard and reasonable way to mount a sign. DON"T YOU ALL AGREE?
-------------------- Mike Pulskamp Pulskamp Arts Sacramento, CA mpulskamp@earthlink.net Posts: 165 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Dec 2002
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I agree that vandals like this can really **** you off, and the temptation to "I'll show them" is great...but the possibility of maiming or even killing a kid over destruction of property is gonna give you more problems.
If a kid got injured over it, you wo would get sued. And even if you somehow won...you would have to live with the knowledge that you in fact intended to cause someone harm and were actively involved in making that happen...over a sign.
Personally, if it's public property and someone else's sign, I'd let them worry about it. If the sign gets smashed a hundred times, that's a hundred new signs you get to create and bill.
Some years ago, there was a case Where a carload of girls toilet papered this guys trees late at night. The guy saw them doing it and ran outside and yelled at them. The girls hopped into their car and sped away. He hopped into his car and pursued them with the intent on getting their license number for the cops.
When the girls saw the guy speeding up on them, they panicked and floored it trying to get away, and the guy pursued them just as quickly...making the girls drive even faster and more recklessly.
Well, the girl driver lost control of the car and wiped out killing all aboard. The guy was sued by the parents for "chasing their girls and causing them to drive reclessly, when they otherwise wouldn't have" and he was convicted of manslaughter or reckless endangerment or something like that as I recall. But the bottom line is, a bunch of girls died over a teenage antic and the homeowner will always feel a certain amount of guilt at somehow...innocently being a part of that scene.
How about a mount that is gonna snap back up when clobbered?
Just thinking out loud, some kind of flexible base with a spring in it might work. The sign would collapse when the little tikes whack it only to spring back up. Sorta like the posts they use in skiing.
???????????????? Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I don't believe in giving in to so called teenage pranks. Anyways, are these kids supposed to have motor vehicles(dirt bikes) on town property. Where's the cops. In my neck of the woods you better have a liscense (State registration also) to be on a dirt bike on anything other than private property or you loose your dirt bike.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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When we bought our house several years ago, I inquired to the former owner about the unusual mailbox out by the road. It is 10" steel pipe, mounted (welded) onto 6" steel pipe which goes into the ground. There are several mailboxes around it, as well as a large reflective pylon (about 4' high) next to it. Seems he had been having some vandalism problems, and replacing his mailbox every couple of days- so he welded up this custom mailbox, and checked with authorities- as long as he has proper markings (the pylon) it is completely legal. It has been up since 1986- and has a lot of marks on it from baseball bats! but I bet that is the last time they try it! BTW- vandalism towards a mailbox is technically a federal offense, since it involves the U.S. Postal Service- or so says the Postmaster at the local Post Office. Reminds me of some high school friends that loved to throw beer bottle at road signs- those bottles will bounce of and come back thru your windshield- ask me how I know
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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If their mammas would just wack their backsides a few times with a keen switch, it should cure the problem.
The camera sounds like a good idea. Some of my hunting buddies use them. But, speaking of mailboxes, doesn't this vandalism probably happen at night? If so, the camera's flash would go off, tipping them off.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Kids do dumb things, but usually grow up to be respectable people like ourselves ( ).
A really ingenius mind can overcome the reinforced mailbox idea. I can recall coming back to a particular reinforced box, wrapping a chain around the post and the bumper of my dad's truck...and simply pulling it out by the roots and dragging it down the street....oh, did I say me?
I meant "someone I knew"....hehehe
Hey, give the reinforced sign a try....I bet you the (if they have half a brain and a competitive spirit) first time they get rebuffed or hurtby it, they'll come back with a hacksaw and a sledghammer.
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Go for it Terry, I had the same problem with a mail box and post when I bought my house a couple of years ago, not only did they whack the mail box but the post as well when they would come by on 4 wheelers and they would take out the post. well it now has a 4"x6" steel post that looks like the same old wood post, and 1 totaled out 4 wheeler and several arms later, 3 have been prosecuted for malitious miscief, and a untold number of butts getting busted by parents finding out what thier kids were doing. You have the rite to take all nesesary steps to protect your property. and as long as it meets codes, as you said let the games begin, we can't help it if thier to stupid to whack a metel post.....
posted
These signs are on public property and have been thoroughly discussed and approved by the town in question. I have absolutely no liability (or guilty feelings) about whatever happens to anyone stupid enough to try and take them out. I don't believe in coddling vandals anymore than my elders did and in case your wondering Todd, if someone tried to break into my house, I would shoot them dead without shedding a tear. By the way...there is no intent to harm or maim anyone. The intent is to prevent damage to a publicly owned, tax payer supplied signage.
After rereading this post, it sounds a little strong...sorry. I just got home from work and I'm a little tired, but not mad.
[ January 13, 2004, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Terry Baird ]
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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The intent of upgrading 2x2 wood to 2x2 steel is clearly in the interest of the protection of public property.
The intent in the faux finish is not as convincing.
I like the idea a lot ... (but I don't buy the "intent" claim for a minute)
while we're off topic... I think burglers should be arrested, but people who kill burglers should be removed from society, but hey, thats just one more opinion in this vast & interesting pool of diversity
quote:Originally posted by Terry Baird: I don't believe in coddling vandals anymore than my elders did and in case your wondering Todd, if someone tried to break into my house, I would shoot them dead without shedding a tear
Terry! Having had numerous mailboxes smashed, mail taken out of my mailbox & even the entire row of mailboxes stolen, I have no pity for these thieves. We had fun growing up, but we didn't destroy other's property. Just once I'd like to see someone get caught for damaging a mailbox (federal offense) and sent to federal prison for it. Of course, HUGE media attention would be needed. I've had enough of coddling the vandals, thieves and other criminals.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Don't get me wrong...I'm with you for the most part...laws are different from state to state and I'm no attorney, so you're probably safe as you describe it. I wouldn't feel bad if a kid broke his arm over it...but if it was much worse...I couldn't deal with having a part in it.
True story: I woke up one night several years ago to a "bang, bang" sound outside followed by the labored sound of a vehicle chugging from a dead stop up the hilly road in front of my house.
I instantly new that a vandal had whacked my mailbox. I threw on some shorts, jumped into my van and hauled butt in the direction I knew the vehicle was traveling. (My mailbox was smashed by the way)
Anyway, keeping in mind the incident with the toilet papering girls who lost control of their car during a chase by a homeowner, I hauled but after the only tail lights on the road at that late/early hour. I got close and then slowly eased up behind them, got their plate, passed them on the left and tried to get a visual I.D. on them. I could just see that it was some young white kid.
Went home, called the cops, filed a report and the cops went over and questioned the kid and made it sound like I had positively I.D.'d him along with his plate.
The kid broke easily, squeeled like a pig on his cohorts AND admitted to smashing a myriad of boxes in the area as well as throwing cinder blocks through peoples bedroom and car windows and trashing their lawns by driving through them.
They all were dutifully arrested and prosecuted. They had caused $5,000 dollars damage in the area and had to reimburse everyone for what they had done. I collected $50 for my mailbox/labor.
They apparently threw a heftly rock threw an 80 yr old man's bedroom window while he was sleeping. Lucky they didn't kill the guy.
So, yeah...I'm all for justice and don't believe in coddling criminals either...just concerned that it could escalate too far.
In Michigan, you can only kill an intruder if you legitimately feel that your life is in imminent danger. Inside the home is always better but if you shoot some guy just because he has your tv in his hands and is heading out the front door....your in big time trouble.
I too would shoot and kill anyone entering my house if they were brandishing a weapon. I'd probably need a lifetime of therapy to get over it....but I'd do whatever I had to to protect myself and my family.
We're very close on these issues. Keep us posted on how things work out.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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brandishing a weapon?... I'd give 'em the damn TV! ... but thats partly 'cause I don't got a gun.
I almost got one back when I was a bit of a criminal myself, but I looked within & decided I would never want to use it, so I figured it would bring me more trouble having it.
posted
I wouldn't shoot someone with a tv in their hands. Beat them about the head and chest with a good 'ol piece of hickory? Maybe.
For me it's easy: threat to life=shoot. threat to property=hold them at bay....well, maybe duck tape their hands and feet together and get out the tweezers and....oh nevermind.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Any reasonably conscientious sign maker, thinking only of the client, of course, would be expected to explore the option of illuminating a trail sign. Hypothetically, a twelve volt storage battery that powers a neon transformer, buried (for aesthetic purposes only) next to the sign, using the metal posts as a current carrying device, would be an acceptable engineering design for this prototype. The only tiny little drawback with a design like this is that the neon transformer packs a punch like a cattle prod. But ... who in the world would be stupid enough to touch the metal post with something like an aluminum bat?
-------------------- Jack Leyden Jack's Signage 1330 "H" East St. Andrew Place Santa Ana,CA 92705 Posts: 22 | From: Santa Ana,CA | Registered: Nov 2001
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Hi Guys, I've had a chance to relax a little after work and have a Dewars...Ahhhhh. Let me explain a little. From 1989 -1999 my family (wife, son and daughter) and I lived in a very rough section of Rochester, NY and were the only white family in the neighborhood. We lived with constant gunfire and break-ins. My son was roughed up on a daily basis and my daughter was harassed until she was sent to a private school. I once saw a guy shot in the butt because he wouldn't turn over his leather jacket to a teen in sub zero weather. We now live in a hamlet about 45 min. from the nearest city because a ten year old from our neighborhood broke into our home and torched it. We lost everything and he went to family court for "counciling". I watched families teach their kids how to become 3-4th generation welfare recipients. To say I'm jaded is a major understatement. I know my experiences have changed me, but all in all my opinions are just that, opinions. I respect everyone here and never (well...once) fly off the handle, so back to the original post. We all know who the vandals are, we just can't catch them. They've been responsible for breaking into the local store, homes and were actually caught stealing donations for the needy (change that the school kids had raised). To see them finally get theirs would make everybody in the community smile a little. Belive it or not, one of the kids is a cops son, go figure.
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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In todays world, you never know what someone is doing in your house. I dont intend to wait for them to pick up something and run for it. If they are in my house, I feel they mean to do me and my family harm. Ill shoot their kneecaps off. It wont kill em, but next time they think of going into someones house, their knees will ache something awful, if they still have them. As far as Terry's problem, one thing leads to another for these teens. They start with mailboxes, escalate to something bigger. This summer I was walking next to a main highway and a carload of teens decided I needed to be shot with a paintball gun. Stupid idiot hollered at me before he shot, so I was able to duck. They wasn't so lucky. I heaved a big ol heavy railroad gravel at their car and put a big ol crack in the back window. I motioned for em to come on back, cause I was pi**ed, but they kept on going. In this case, they could have hit me in the eye or whatever. I have no patience or sympathy for acts like this. Take what follows is what we've always said down here. Works about anywhere too. Todd has his heart in the right place though. I respect him for that.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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