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Well appox. 260 folks will now be looking for work. Disney is closing their animation studio in Florida because of all the computer animated films being done. At least they waited till after the holidays to give them boot.
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Wait! Look at the big plus here--it's that many more people who could bring high-quality, professional layout & design skills to the sign trade...this could be a new "Golden Era"(TM), a new sign paradigm shift!! I propose that larger, production shops seek these individuals out and hire them--I'm sure they won't have huge salary requirments, as Disney is notorious for underpaying it's people anyway!
Just a thought from a hick in the sticks...
-------------------- Wm. J. Krupinski ArtFirst Studio Jefferson, WI kruptoons@yahoo.com Posts: 95 | From: Jefferson, WI USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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My son, Steve, is graduating from Full Sail in 6 weeks. Full Sail is a computer animation school, among other things like set lighting and digital sound mixing, in Winter Park, Florida, which is 35 min from Universal and Disney.
He told me there are no jobs in the area for what he wants to do in computer animation.
He and several other graduates are going to head for California and check out the CG studios there, and from our search of these places on the internet, they have ongoing projects and are hiring.
Computer animation is the wave now. It will only get bigger and better as there is a growing number of users across a variety of media from new games, TV commercials, industrial training DVDs, movies, and the list goes on and keeps growing. 3D animation is growing very quickly and will work down into video games eventually, where you have to put on the colored glasses to see super realistic 3D.
On the other hand, hand jobs, er... real drawings of individual cartoon cells at 24 cells for every second of viewing are getting expensive, and whats the point or profit in it if there is shrinking market for this entertainment.
Steve and 3 others spent 16 hour days, 14 days with out letup, to produce a fully animated 30 SECOND short film. They put music behind it, but didn't add any sound effects...that's a whole other ball game taught at the same school.
Point is, this 30 second short took hundreds of hours less than hand animation, and looks incredibly better. I have a copy, but due to all the artists working on the project and their rights as far as intellectual proprety, I can't upload it for viewing. It really rocks!
They created an automotive shop like the ones you see on TV where they show you how to soup up your car. They created a car from scratch, sittin up on a floor jack, with a animated chipmunk mechanic (like daffy duck or bugs bunny only this is a chipmunk.
He flips a nut at a radio to turn it on. The nut bounces off and hits a switch on a fan, which blows a ball bearing down an incline through an oil funnel. It gains so much momentum that it knock over some tools, which in the process topples objects on a shelf, which inturn falls on the floor jack and causes the car to topple onto the chipmunk, squishing him under the car.
The exercise was only to show camera movement, so the camera travels with all the motion, zooming in and out and smoothly panning around the shop to capture the moment and enhance the stories comic conclusion. However, they went overboard and created all kinds of background tools, pegboards, junk you would see in a shop.
I'm really proud of this kid!
[ January 11, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
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Yep unfortunately Cartoons have been increasingly poor in quality for many years.
Not to mention the 3D cartoons like say Jimmy Neutron are just way too cool. It is just the way of mankind. The successful ones will embrace technology and still be animators. It is sad but not as sad as if they sent all the jobs over seas like Levis.
Another sad side is this as we all know is destined to happen in every profession in the near future. Atual human talent is not valued anymore as more and more computers replace what we strive to become good at.
Funny thing is these tasks we strive so hard for give us self esteem and take advantage of our built in talents we have, in result making us feel good about ourselves. And in some instances it gives people a place or label in society.
And they wonder why people are so miserable nowadays, The food that feeds our souls is being reduced on a catastophic level leaving many people feeling so empty and hollow. Kinda makes ya woder why we waste so much energy trying to fill this void with such tangeable and finite things. I hope I'm not alive to see the final result of all of this.
I would be proud to be one of the last animators in that 260 layoff, those people have something that others cannot obtain even if they tried. RAW TALENT.
I hope your son finds work dave that fills his creative side, and not stuck in a cubicle doing animated pwerpoint presentations for stuffed suits.
[ January 11, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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oh i remember the days....1972 i went to school in denver for the U.S.A.F. to learn computers....i was then a computer operator when i got to my regular base. now this aint what you think it is, i took orders for parts/supplies and TYPED THEM INTO A COMPUTER(not really)that what they said i did. this was state of the art technology ot that time. the computer was 1050-2 IBM and had 64K memory!!!! and took up 2000 sq.ft. of floor space. the big thing in them days was PROGRAMERS(people who could write dos code)and KEY PUNCH OPERATORS,people who sat and typed all day long and what they types made those cards with regtangular holes in them! now this was how the computer read what i had typed to it.....find a use for their skill today!!!! or what i learned in school, totally useless today. then it was the COMPUTER TECH, the guy who fixes them and builds em......now they work at best buys for $7 an hour. then came the WEB PAGE DESIGN people who where getting $3000-4000 to design and build a web page.....lucky if you can get $50 for doin one today.....and i wont even go to GRAPHIC ARTISTS who used to come in my shop and want a job.....BUT CANT EVEN DRAW A STICK FIGURE!! the problem with computer skills is they dont last long.....always new and faster ways to do the jobs.......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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My son Peter works as an animator up here in Canada. There's little high end stuff being done there. Most animation is being designed locally and then animated overseas for a lot less money than they could hope to do it here for. Even most 2D animation is being done via computer with Flash and other programs. It's not like it was years ago.
Now even the hand drawn stuff for features seems to be going the way of the dodo bird. Good or bad its progress.
While we love to paint the big corporations as the bad guys, we need to realize that they always need to search ways to cut costs and stay with the times or they wouldn't stay in business. Animation is an expensive way to produce a picture! Disney traditionally spends gobs more money on animation than anybody else - bar none!
And the last few hits in the business HAVE been with computer 3D animation (I think it is about story and not the animation).
I've discussed it with my son Peter a fair amount and his feeling from inside the industry is that there's not much of a future in the business. The money (except for the very top folks) isn't great and as he puts it 'there aren't many old animators in the business.'
It will be interesting to watch!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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What are you talking about animation? They draw one slide and hold it still for for the entire scene. That's like newpaper comicstrip story boards, not anamation.
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But, you know, it would behoove the traditionally-trained animators to embrace the "new" technology which Flash is amongst. This program mimics the old ways with much reverence to how it used to be done and with terminology that the animator would be the first to understand.
They have the ability to make movements that are more lifelike through their applications than those without that training. It would be like a skilled sign painter now designing on a computer. The similarities are parallel. Yes, there is a computer program learning curve, but their results will be superior by far. This is not meant as a statement of arrogance; but that, experience should not be ignored.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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I've been 3D Animating for 10 years and the money in it now is NOWHERE as good as it was the first 2 or 3 years that I was doing it on a professional level. I lucked out and picked it up while I was in school for engineering, and was able to purchase student versions of all the software through the school bookstore. Then after I finished school I did the animation work moonlighting while I was working at an engineering firm. In fact my first client was the engineering firm, I built a 100% accurate 3D model of a building we were working on right off the CAD drawings we had produced, they used it as a presentation tool with their clients as well as making that service available to their clients- we both made money on it.
Back then, while it was in less demand, it was easier to command a high price for it.
Now it's in only *slightly* higher demand and there are schools cranking out "artists" by the thousands in the US, but the jobs are going to Asia where they have huge computer farms of cheaper labor doing the highly tedious, boring, repetitive animating work.
The 3D and Computer animation market is SATURATED.
I don't know what the going rate is today for a small firm producing finished animations or presentations, but when I was doing the work under my own identity (Digital Illusion - cause I was known for creating photoreal renderings and animations) I was getting $5,000 per minute of finished animation, soundtracks were additional and luckily at the time a close buddy of mine was an awesome sound/music guy. That single minute took WEEKS to produce, after all the storyboards were written, the characters and scenery modeled, lighting and cameras setup and finally animated down to every detail including facial expressions and free-flowing hair, grass and trees if required.
Today, most firms are using overseas animators to cut costs, cause hey, nobody's going to pay animators $40,000-$60,000/year to sit and do all the tweaking that's required.
The film studios that actually get money to produce features, like PIXAR or Dreamworks, likely do all their animating in-house to maintain control and quality- but that is a WHOLE different level - to be an animator (excluding the modeling aspect) in one of those places you not only need the animation and art experience (they dont even care if you are trained at an accredited animation school or self-taught, as long as you show talent) but you also likely need a Computer Science degree because they write their own proprietary software so they can achieve all the effects they need.
Much of the time the film studios dont even build 3D Models from scratch in the computer - it takes too dang long. They actually build physical models and sculptures, then scan 'em in 3D and tweak 'em from there. To be a modeler at a film studio, computer modeling experience is just a plus but the ability to sculpt or build actual models is higher on the priority list, as I learned from my contact with PIXAR and Dreamworks when I was job-seeking thanks to boredom in engineering. Obviously it didnt pan out but it's probably for the better because I grew bored with the animation as well.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Jobs are dissappearing everywhere.....Probably lots of work available in CHINA! I'm retiring just in time! It could finally be the beginning of "pay-back" time for all that plastic credit the middle class has been existing on. And now BUSH wants to go to MARS.......!!!
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now ya did it burns......ya told the truth....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm gonna say that "raw talent" compared to those who do 3D annimation is not a good analogy.
Good 3D animators are as equally talented with the same level of "raw talent" as those who put pen/pencil to paper.
Trust me...3D animation requires the same degree of creativity, vision, dedication, experience, and any other descriptive word you can think of as that of a traditional animator. I'll go out on a limb and probably say that in most cases it requires a HIGHER level of skill.
The prep work is exhaustive and as Mike Pipes points out, doesn't happen overnight.
I took one class of Lightwave 3D and can tell you it is a brain twister on the highest order. I too, thought that I could learn 3D annimation in a matter of 6 months....cause it was on the computer it had to be easy, right?! NOT! 2 years is more like it....and you're still not a pro.
So whether you see a neat "little" animated commercial on tv or "Finding Nemo" on the big screen....please know that the people behind the creation of that medium are extremely creative, talented, hard-working individuals who have poured all their God given talents into a grueling project.....the likes of which most of us cannot even fathom.
There are many masters of various art forms, and each deserves our respect and admiration. The fact that the trend of traditional animations is fading in the wake of a relatively newer medium doesn't diminish the talent of the hand animator.
You either have to adapt to what's marketable, find a nitch for the talent you have or find a new line of work altogether.
Just think of how those in the buggy business must have felt when automobile's started gaining entry into the transportation market.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yep, to be profficient at 3D modeling and animation you basically have to be willing to put your whole life on hold, or skip sleep which is what I did.
It takes an insane amount of brainpower to do because you're trying to create a three dimensional world while working in a two dimensional environment, and visualization skills are totally maxxed out as well. It drains you completely.
If ya never shut yourself up in a room for 5 days straight and did nothing but eat/drink caffiene and tweak 3D Models and animation sequences, you wouldn't understand. That's probably why I dont do much of it anymore, besides the fact there's not much demand for it when live actors are actually cheaper.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Ultimately I ended up with 3D Studio MAX and a whole load of software from Discreet. Discreet is an off-shoot of AutoDESK who originally created 3D Studio. There's a story below that describes how I got into it, and it originated from working with AutoCAD.
"Good" is a relative term cause a 1 year veteran is better than a newbie but I was 18 years old when I jumped into doing the work professionally, and by then I already had 4 years of intense "playing around" under my belt before deciding I was good enough to make money at it.
I actually started 3D modeling when I was 14, by then I had already had a year of AutoCAD in school and had learned as much as the teacher could teach. He let me take the manuals to learn on my own and released me from having to do the class projects, but put me on my own advanced project of my own chosing. I was doing 3D when the rest of the class was still getting the hang of drawing lines and circles.
By the time I went into college at 17 I already had a lot of experience building 3D models in "Ought-to-CAD" One day I wandered into the bookstore at school between classes and picked up my own copy of AutoCAD that I could take home, and it just so happens it was part of a software suite, included in the box was the DOS version of 3D Studio.
The transition for me from AutoCAD to 3D Studio was a snap, because at the time AutoCAD was so difficult to model with (moreso back then than it is today) the more artistic nature of 3DS was a breeze for me to learn - combined with the fact that software has always been very easy for me to figure out very quickly.
I put in a good year of learning the newer easier modeling techniques, and learning how to setup scenes and animate before commissioning work.
I started selling my work when I was 18 while going to school and still holding down regular jobs, which allowed me to upgrade to 3D Studio MAX, the windows version of 3D Studio. That opened even more possibilities for easier modeling, better renderings, and real easy (as compared to the past) character animation.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Mike, that's an awesome story. And inspiring too. Do you have any automotive samples you could post or would be willing to send me? I'm very interested in seeing other's 3D work.
My college room mate, a professional illustrator is just wrapping up a movie with his brother who is directed/and wrote the film. It started out as a small low budget, but went big time. Paramount picked it up. It's completely animated with only the "humans" being non animated. My roomie directed a whole staff of 3D artists - California of course. Stars include: Angelina Jolie, Jude Law, Gwyneth Paltrow, and others...but everything other than them is animated...which is no longer a secret as their trailer is out.
Movie is called "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Set for release sometime this summer.
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