posted
Ok so I have been hit in the face with a dilemma.
I recently finished some signage for a local sushi restaurant. I made sure that both the estimate and the invoice had a disclaimer that stated my ownership of any/all layout and designs provided, copyright... blah blah blah. I come to find out that the sushi place has been checking prices using not only my drawings (with my name & co. plastered all over it), but my actual signs (complete with my shops sticker on the back), and they are going to have some made. The shop they are using said "make sure you bring in the sign so we can match it exactly, fonts and all" I know this is their quote because they said it to my wife on the phone (she works for the advertising agency that does the sushi places marketing)
The sign shop (that's stealing my design, and undercutting me) does not know that I know this (yet).
What would you do? have you been in a similar situation?
My thoughts are that the sushi place is wrong for ignoring my disclaimers, and the sign shop is wrong for ignoring them as well.
Normally I wouldnt make a big stink but the sushi place caused me many hours of work changing the layout, running drawings around, working after hours etc. and now this is like a slap in the face, I want to at least let them know that I know, and shame them a little bit.
BTW normally I wouldnt name the other sign shop but not many of you are from Sacramento, and I know we are all being put in these awkward positions by these franchise shops, While I wont say the companies name directly, I will tell you that they cater to people who want their "SIGNSNOW". wink wink.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
call the sign shop and advise them of the copyright issues, and that you can seek legal actions against them if they do the work. Worst case scenario is you got even with the customer by calling thier bluff and made it very uncomfortable for the stickysignshop to do business with them. then I would call the customer and advise them of the same copyrights and that you know therye shopping around. not like you have anything to lose at this point. ya lost them already.
Good Luck.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
We have all been there, and it makes / drives me crazy when it happens to me.
1. You can't do anything, copyright wise unless you have the artwork registered with the government. Did you pay your $30 and fill out the forms? It takes 6 months to work through the system.
2. These people are going to do what they want with or without your approval, so forget it.
3. Don't get mad, get even. Go to their restaurant with a dozen mice in you pockets and let them out.
4. Have some friends call the other sign shop and have them come out to look at a project on a location address that doesn't exist, call them back and ask them why they didn't show up, keep calling them every 5 minutes and then hang up.
I would never do these things because I'm suppose to be setting a good example, I don't know why, but for some reason its expected.
[ January 05, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Hey Dave, Can you think of anything I could do to help, Would you be able to use an inside guy at all? Want me to go offer them a killer lowball? or maybe a killer highball? and tell them that it can't be done well for any less than that. Think up something fun!
-------------------- Mike Pulskamp Pulskamp Arts Sacramento, CA mpulskamp@earthlink.net Posts: 165 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Yes, same thing happened to me. I spent a lot of time doing menus for a new restaurant. They were opening multiple sites so I was hoping to get more work. It turned out that a quickie-sticky franchise slashed my price and got some of the other work. Sure I was mad but, don't you know that it takes longer to try to match someone else's work instead of doing it yourself. I know that other shop lost their butt on that job. Since then the quickie sticky shop has changed owners and I hear they're not doing too good. Lesson learned - Tell client up front that changes cost MORE money. If you must develope a plan for the project, tell customer there will be a seperate charge to research and analyse the best solution for their signage needs. Otherwise they are getting a free plan that they can shop around with. And you are getting burned.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
A simple letter from your attorney will bring everything to a screaching halt...most attorneys will do something like this for a nominal fee (especially if they smell blood)and this will give everyone involved a nose bleed.
The good part is everyone will know you're serious and you'll not have to get personally involved.
Good luck...on the other hand letting mice loose in the guys restaurant could get you sued, not to mention trouble with the local animal rights group (only kidding).
Your choice!
Let us know what you did and how it worked out!
[ January 05, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Geez -- you guyz are calling lawyers before you even TALK to people.
I see two ETHICAL choices.
One: visit the client and find out what's up. Were they unhappy with your service? your prices? if so, and if you can't figure out a way to keep them as your customer, then "you're happy to release the files to them once they pay your design license fee." Explain to them that the work you designed belongs to you. (Just because its on the paperwork doesn't mean that they understand what that means.)
Two: visit the other sign shop. See the owner, and tell him you're "concerned" that the client might be asking him to violate your design copyright and perhaps they weren't aware that the design work has not been licensed for other people to use.
If nothing else, you'll help build community rather than pay attorneys.
If they STILL want to go ahead, then let them go. You'll get more by finding good clients who like you than by chasing around after people who don't want to work with you and who don't appreciate what you can do for them.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
And for what it's worth, I like Scooters answer. I once did a sign for a store that was part of a much bigger "group" . The powers that were took a picture of that sign and sent it to all the other outlets with a letter that said "This is an excellent example of a system standard sign, one good source of these signs is "***** *********" in Saskatoon. I called them and very nicely told them that I felt that was unfair and although I was flattered that they used the first sign I had ever made to advertise a big company that was my competition, that I felt I had been wronged and how did they feel we should rectify the situation. They have sent a lot of stores my direction over the years and a couple of months ago asked me for flyers with pictures of their updated specs and price lists that they could distribute to all their outlets in Saskatchewan. This is 10 years after the fact and has comprised a large chunk of my business in that period of time. It pays to be nice, at least for me
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Good post Kelly- well done. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I've found there are generally two ways to get a job done- with threats, or with encouragement.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I'm sorry I must have misread the post ...I didn't realize we wanted to appease the customer and make friends with the other shop...I thought the question was what would you do if someone ripped you off?
And I answered it accordingly.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Did you get paid for the design? Why did you let the print leave your office without getting paid? Did you "officially" copyright it?
A disclaimer is pretty worthless unless they signed an acknowledgement of it, and quoted a price for "damages". The problem starts with you allowing them to leave the office with "your" print. Getting a lawyer or getting some money, when you didn't charge for the design or didn't take the time to develope a legal document stating that the design belongs to you could show the court that you don't value your time or work. (I am assuming you didn't charge, you did charge, didn't you?) I would try to collect some money and get to work on an actual workable agreement before you allow any artwork to leave your office. There are some good books and links that can provide infomation. One organization (The Graphic Arts Guild) makes a good book and even has sample forms for your use, thier website has links to more copyright information-read up on your right, and protect yourself better-and get paid for your time.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I have read of something called a "Poor Man's copyright".
Basically, once you draw, or design a logo or image on the computer, make a copy and send it registered mail to yourself, but do not open it. Then, if you ever get into a situation where you have to prove ownership, the cancelled stamp supposedly will hold up in court.
I have not looked into it for a few years, maybe you could do a search on it.
Good luck!
MC
-------------------- Mike Clayton M C Grafix Custom Lettering New Jersey (again) Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
There is one additional ethical question. What type of problems will this cause between your wife and her employer? I'm sure that any info that she obtains pertaining to her employers clients is strictly confidential.
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
It would be cool if a potential client that gave off the ripoff vibe would have to sign agreements and put down front money in the beginning of negotiations. But, thats a fantasy. In reality it's best not to put yourself in a box...thinking that good will comes with all who enter your door. Experience does come with effort, good or bad. Take the lumps, get with the other shop, let it pass. When one door closes...another opens. Usually the next project is a better one.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
If you had a "disclaimer", now it looks like you have to back it up. Scooter's good advice is the first approach. But (then) you will probably need a lawyer to send everybody concerned "cease and desist" letters. Why not talk to the lawyers that work for the ad agency, they may be helpful or at least "educational". Good luck.
posted
iam with terry on this, the info you got was not thru "ETHICAL MEANS" so i feel your point of ethics is invalid. my wife worked for a large company in sarasota, and was in bookkeeping also she was left with office manager duties. they had some sign work bid by one of my competitors, and she told me what the bid $$$ was....it was for signfaces for electric can. i "ethically" chose not to get involved.....also i dont have a bucket truck to get up where the sign was.....so i think you just need to sit back and let "business" take its course, if your wife hadnt told you about this, you wouldnt know this. i see a duality of terms here, its unethical what they are doing, and its ethical..that you found out about it? dont fly in my book!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
My memory may be off right now, if so please forgive me. I seem to remember a post about signs for a sushi restaurant that was planning on opening other locations. Is this that?
If it is, I would consider calling the customer and inquiring about the other locations. Just sorta a 'touching base' call to see where they are with opening new locations as you've started looking at your calendar for this year.... Or if it's a near-by place, try to stop in when the owner is there, tell them you wanted to make sure the signs were working well for them, inquire if they need any additional work. It makes you look good (as a shop that cares about the customer, not just the $$$) and it puts them on the spot as well.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I just re-read that whole post that Chris is talking about. I guess you already knew this might happen. In the real world-design is seperate, if you got paid to design it, why would you care if they took it to someone else for fabrication? It looks like you spent quite a bit of time designing it, incorporating it into the whole package, then underbidding it was a bad move on your part. You have little to stand on without an acknowledgement from the client that they agreed to the disclaimer terms, especially since you tried to lock them in by incorporating the design fee into the complete package. I would either work out a deal to sell them the design, and work with the sign company, sue them, or chalk it up as a loss and move on......
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Surprise surprise but I don't agree with OP on this one. Sorry OP.
Let's say your wife confides to her best friend that she is cheating on you. The friend feels badly about your wife's behavior and decides to betray her confidence and tell you about the affair.
Would you tell your wife's friend, "Look, don't tell me any more because if I don't hear it directly from my wife, then it's unethical for you to tell it and I shouldn't know."
If you've been on the receiving end of unethical conduct, I feel it is very ETHICAL to determine the facts behind the suspicion in any way possible. Lawyers call this the "discovery phase".
I'm a firm believer in bringing justice to those that knowingly put the shaft to others..It's no different than the rule of law brought down to the personal relationship level. Without certain rules of conduct and laws, chaos and anarchy will rule the day.
I believe in trust, fairness, and treating people that deserve respect with respect.
So if some guy is trying to take your hard work and dish it off to someone else to save a buck, knowing full well you have a disclaimer on your original artwork...then I feel it is your right and moral obligation to confront the situation. That can happen through many avenues: diplomacy, courts, or mice and cockroaches.
posted
boy you make great "jailhouse lawyer", hahahahahaha....and you know where that gets most.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Unfortunately Todd, corporate ethics aren't negotiable. Break the rules and lose your job and reputation (unless you're a lawyer).
[ January 07, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Terry Baird ]
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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