posted
I guess the previous time spent bidding projects for this client have a lot to do with my attitude on this one. I also think that it is a sign of my maturing in this industry though, that I resist donating a lot of time to attempt to "win" work. I wonder what some of you folks think. Here is the email I recieved & the image that was attached...
quote:Dear Doug,
I am a graphic designer for the Pacific Whale Foundation, currently developing a project that will require the services of a sign maker, versed in a variety of skills.
Please find attached a PDF file with specifications for a "Legacy Wall" we wish to have constructed on an exterior wall of our new Ocean Science Discovery Center in Ma¹alaea. As is always the case, we are looking to have this project executed for the best price possible, and as quickly as your schedule will allow.
Since this will be an outdoor graphic, durability will be a major issue, with windblown particles, intense sunlight, and rain all being factors to consider. Resistance to vandalism is also an additional parameter. We are open to suggestions as far as materials are concerned, but we would like it have a quality look. One thought that has been considered is possibly using Corian, but we'd appreciate some input since this is your area of expertise.
I banged out this hasty reply, then thought I should not only "sleep on it" & re-read tomorrow, but also get some opinions in Letterville. Here is my 1st draft reply:
quote: Hi Tod, The project looks very interesting. I do have the combination of skills and/or resources necessary for completion of a project such as this. I must be honest with you that I have done a number of elaborate bids for the Pacific Whale Foundation & have never been allocated any significant amount of work. Generally speaking, the type of work I am asked to bid on is more straight forward typical sign work. I know from 7 years as the owner of Island Sign that I bid competitively, & win well over half of the bids I submit on these more typical projects. The unusual ones like this could easily bring in a wide range of prices based on an equally wide range of material choices & production approaches. You mention being open to suggestions. I suggest you hire a sign person to complete the design phase until you have a bid proposal that is articulate in every detail so the bids you request will all be specific to a comprehensive set of construction documents & specifications. In the past I have volunteered extensive consultation on a sign proposal to attempt to zero in on what needs to be bid on. I can no longer offer that service free of charge. You may be able to find others who will continue to do this, but in all fairness, I don't think that is reasonable to expect. I would estimate a minimum of 5 to 8 hours at $60 per hour to research & discuss suitable material choice comparisons, production technique options, installation & site condition concerns & produce final bid proposal plans, specs. & documents. I hope this reply does not come across like an unprofessional or arrogant attitude. I have just evolved over the years to a point where I think the multitude of details required to even discuss making a beautiful drawing into a three dimensional reality is a job in itself, & bidding on producing the sign can only happen after someone does that job.
I have customers like this that want you to be well aware they are "shopping around" for the best price a yet want top notch quality. I didn't notice a size listed and yes, parts of it were very vague. These customers cannot compare apples to apples going about it this way. They are looking for free advice, and an education on materials and options. You are right to explain that this project cannot even be discussed without payment for your time and experise.
I am not as tactful as you are. Your letter explains everything very nice and professionally. Though I would leave out the last part stating how the letter may sound to the potential customer (unprofessional/arrogant-leave it out). The letter is professional and if this man is professional at all, he will interpret it that way.
I would stress that this is a more extentive project and will require a fee even for a bid and time spent discussing more detail of the job.
Some people are just not worth your time. I know it's hard to pass up any work. But we have to get past the "free estimates" unless it is just a knock out job. He has probably already received similar letters from other shops that refuse to work on a free estimate for a job this size. It is different from jobs you have done for them in the past and he needs to understand the difference.
I have done sign work for a local company that builds multi million dollar houses. They charge $10,000 to draw up a proposal and are never without work. You have to charge for your time.
I can't say that I follow my own advice, but I'm working on it.
Good Luck, Pam Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
If there are points witch seem vague to you, ask him before you quote it. Don't spend a bunch of time before your questions get answered. They come to you for expertise ... telling them they need to pay you a full day just to figure out how to do it dosen't seem right to me.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Mark, I can hear Doug's frustration. That is why he feels like charging them to educate them...they have obviously strung him along before and went elsewhere. I agree with Pam...eliminate the paragraph about sounding unprofessional. Doug, if it makes you feel better, go for it. lOVE- jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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This request seems fairly typical. I bid on jobs like this quite often and are awarded a high percentage of them.
I get these jobs when my expertise allows the client to get the end result they desire at a reasonable price. Even though they don't know what materials, processes or details will achieve this.
When they know exactly what they want, with everything exactly specified, I am usually out of the game. They don't need someone like me. Someone will deliver exactly what they want at a lower price.
If you have a problem with a particular customer, then politely decline to participate.
Otherwise, in my experience, projects worth thousands of dollars require a day of your time, call it sales time if you prefer, to secure.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Don't sweat it Doug. It sound like you learned to say NO. I'm happy to say that I really don't get involved with the bidding process much any more. But, $13,240 sounds like a fair price to me.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:I must be honest with you that I have done a number of elaborate bids for the Pacific Whale Foundation & have never been allocated any significant amount of work.
I think this part sounds a bit whiny, but otherwise the others' comments are right on.
Focus on that you need to charge for your time and leave it at that.
I think the requestor does not realize that they are being rude by asking for a good price; I always make some sort of price noise when dealing with a service provider, just to protect myself from them thinking I'm rich or something - and it has nothing to do with an unwillingness to pay. I suspect that's what's going on here.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The frustration is that the designer is only a designer, and doesn't have the architectural engineering background to complete the sign system...then asks for a bid, which of course YOU have to finish the engineering process, which takes a great deal of time for no money.
This isn't a plywood realty sign going up in front of a empty commercial building. But the designer is treating it that way.
When we were on vacation at Disney and Universal in Florida this past month and viewed the signs at these parks, you can tell by the way they are made that: 1. A concept artist designed the initial look 2. An architech/engineer renedered blue prints 3. A production shop got the contract
(See the post "Signs we seen on vacation)
I ask the cilents for a set of the architectural blueprints same as the other shops get to offer a bid. In your case, this guy doesn't have any.
Now what needs to happen is to go back to STEP 2 and this is what you say:
"Tod, this project needs an architechural / engineering type study first, buleprints and all for competitive bidding. We charge less for those services and can move the project forward faster, if you would like to proceed. This could take a day, cost around $600 give or take. Would you like to proceed this way?"
"How much money does one have to pay to get on this board? 222 spaces at $300 per space? Hmmm Lets see that's $66,000...so there should be enough money to do this the right way."
The skill is in recognizing this half baked project coming in the door for what it really is, then confront it properly. You wont be frustrated or waste precious time.
[ December 23, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
I would suggest an alternative approach...something along the lines of this:
quote:Hi Tod,
Thanks for the opportunity to become involved with your "Legacy Wall" project.
Because you are placing such importance on durability and vandal resistance, I trust you agree that the highest priority must be given to specifying the most suitable materials and techniques for production. Although the initial investment may be higher, maintenance costs will be significantly lower and donor satisfaction with the recognition your organization provides will be higher. The whole point of this project is to solicit future donations, after all.
To this end, rather than put the entire project out for tender, I would suggest that you may want to consider first contracting a qualified consultant from within the sign industry to assist you in developing the specifications upon which the production phase of your project will be tendered. Ultimately, this will ensure that ALL of your objectives are met – including those for minimizing costs.
I would be more-than-pleased to assist you in this manner, should you decide the suggestion has merit. My rate for this sort of consultation is $60 per hour and I would estimate that 6-8 hours is needed to bring the development phase of your project to completion. Of course, with clear specifications in place, I would also appreciate the opportunity to bid on completing production of the “Legacy Wall”.
Don't let your clients lose sight of their real objectives. In this case, they're not putting the wall up to save money (which is the point of monkeying around with you for free advice and then taking the lowest bidder).
I am of course making the assumption that this "Legacy Wall" is for donor recognition...you may want to confirm that this is the case. If so, the real objective of this thing is to attract repeat donations from the companies/people in question and to motivate new donors to come forward (ostensibly for similar recognition).
If I may suggest further, you should check out Matthews Paint Company's clearcoats for this project: Very durable. Their graffiti resistant product is superb and would minimize your client's maintenance costs.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Jon's "re-write" of your letter to these folks is just the right tone - it is clear and professional, without any mention of your (frustrating) history with this organization.
The problem here is common in the industry: without clear and comprehensive specifications, bids become apple-and-orange affairs. I see no reason someone should not be paid to correct this in advance. Think of the staggering sums spent every day on studies for every concievable sort of project - who gets that money? Consultants do. So present yourself as a consultant, remembering that as such, you remain emotionally neutral - don't allow your feelings about past dealings to interfere with this project. Above all be professional, do a bit of "jargon research" so you speak the language, then take their money. They're going to pay SOMEBODY for this; it might as well be you.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This post SO reminds me of my days in an agency.... where creative was king and an oooh and aahh was enough to make the concept sell.... even if it wasn't a proper solution..... and production was always the last consideration, to the detriment of SO many projects.
In my experience, being a bit cocky sounding like your initial reply is a good thing.... leave out the
"I must be honest with you that I have done a number of elaborate bids for the Pacific Whale Foundation & have never been allocated any significant amount of work."
Like Mark said... that part sounds a bit whiny. The rest sounds like you are the expert that deserves to toot his own horn a bit... and that they should consult with you before getting in over their heads. Well... you ARE the expert... state it that way... if they don't want to believe that you're the expert... you don't want their business.
Also, like Jon Aston said.... sometimes the client needs to be refocused and guided to their own goals. This is an education process. Be the professional expert and guide them their... show them the value added of the "sign process" BEYOND the "creative process" I'd take Jon's letter and work it into yours... as well as all the other good advice here.
Follow your proffesional/expert instinct... I'd say you're on your way.
posted
1. I don't see anything wrong with the potential client's email. Not every job is handed to you with precise details worked out, that's YOUR job, afterall if they knew your business they wouldn't need you for help, period. It states artwork will be provided in Illustrator or AutoCAD/DXF - there's your sizing information right there, you just need to ask for it. His mentioning the price isn't out of line either. We already try to give the best product at a good value for every job we do, there's absolutely nothing wrong with stating there is a budget for a project - we're not all made out of money.
2. You need to forget about the past history of this foundation. You're going to spend time bidding jobs you don't win, it's a fact of doing business. It's not like you won a job then they decided they weren't going to pay.
3. Drop any and all statements or comments that could possibly be perceived as negative. The guy only asked if you would entertain a bid, he's not asking for a life story.
4. You bid a job and win it, but that doesnt mean the price is final. If there is a change in materials or design along the way, you issue a change order and you get paid for it - industry standard stuff here folks, you don't have to live with a crappy bid.
5. Keep It Simple: Jon's post is right on, sell yourself as a consultant, but to protect yourself I wouldnt pinpoint any number of hours. Offer your consultant services on a contractual basis where the contract terminates as soon as the sign is installed/completed. Here's the deal when you can get hired on as a consultant - you can drive the job, the materials, the quality of construction, while carrying out the designer's vision, whether or not you get the bid for production. You make all the specifications and requirements for the job.
What the designer has provided you is a rough concept which is more than most clients provide. It's up to you to work out all the details.
My response would look a little something like this:
"I recommend hiring a sign consultant from within the sign industry to develop a set of material and production specifications tailored to your environmental concerns and budget, as a separate contract from the sign's actual production. I am willing and able to provide such consulting services for your project, and would also enjoy the opportunity to bid on the project's construction once all the structural and material requirements are in place."
The last 10 words are the most important, they give 'em a hint you don't even want to waste the time until they know what direction they want to go.
If they hire you on as a consultant you'd be doing them a favor cause when they get bids in and they're all for different materials, there's no way they can compare. At least with a consultant they have someone giving them some direction and insight to the best materials for the job.
If they hire you on as consultant, cool you get paid for basically developing a detailed bid, only without the bid part. If not, you havent wasted any time on it. If they ask you to bid on it too, nobody knows the job better than you at this point cause you've already scoured out all the details.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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There is probably a real project ready to land at your feet. When one door closes another opens.
Crazyjack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Doug I feel your pain, when I worked at a sign shop and saw the drawings for Staples Center-They were as vague as that drawing times 1000. It's like you have to draft it before you can bid it--but I have a suggestion that worked a few times when I worked at a sign shop, offer to develop bid docs so the bids can come in competitivly and they get the product they need. That way everyone is bidding the same exact thing with some quality built into it automaticaly. Otherwise it is very hard to spend time bidding on something that Jooe Blow down the street can substitute with cheap materials because he screwed up on the bid or has no sense of what a good sign is made of.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Doug, I think what Jon Aston said hits the target. My interest would be after this letter of being a consultant goes thru, what type of material do you plan to use for that project? Not clearing it, but the substrate?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Thanks for all the feedback folks. Jon, your letter rocks! Rick, your suggestion is exactly along the lines of what I am wanting to tell them... they won't benefit from "competitive bids" that will produce a lowest cost for a specific product, unless they have the specific product defined first.
Mike, your reply seems to defend the clients bid request, but then also to support my consultation fee proposal. I guess what I am hearing there, is not to be "fed up" at their "vague" request, as it is more concise then many, but to still refuse to provide free consultation as part of my sales "costs"
As expected I have learned a lot from my friends & neighbors here. I knew some of my exasperation was from previous trips to their location, lengthy materials discussions, & detailed itemized bids for expensive projects... never to hear from them again until they want another free consultation. In fact I read my post after submitting & feared that everyone would think the bid request was fine, & I was a neurotic whacko.
While that last bit mat still be true, I am glad to find support for the idea of offering them to contract my consultation services to better prepare their project for comparitive bidding. I am now armed with a more level headed approach on wording my suggestions.
No, in reality you bring up a good point that is not completely unrelated. If this was an area I was extremely experienced with, the time to narrow down the options would be less, & my concerns on "wasting" time would be less.
I am currently working on a project that has routed & painted corian, & would be willing to discuss the pros & cons of that choice with the client. The idea of having several dozen blank "tiles" that presumably would be needing to be "engraved" in small increments as donars are aquired makes the idea of the 6' x 8' of Corian being segmented into just 2 panels seem ludicrous to me.
As for what is the best solution... it makes my brain hurt thinking of working on this problem for free,(for them)although I am usually eager for an intellectual challenge related to this industry. Maybe I am just to jaded by past experiences with this client.
I do somehow think actual "tiles" could be good, & possibly the graphics (including "grout line" graphics)could appear on the recessed surface, with missing donar plaques ready to be lettered & grouted in as needed. Maybe 1/2" thick clear acrylic donar plaques with sub-surface screenprinted names laid over the painted mural. I also think the wavy lines look cool, but to make every plaque & every name wavy is a very expensive idea IMO.
I read your posting around 5:00 am. My time and thought about it.....
See what I mean about Thier Design! You never can find out on the true design... They are looking or pulling Ideas into their Budget Needs.
I have come to the concept that there is to much free will and information or passing of information by the customer after they have been informed on process and materials.
Your idea of pricing for "Thought/Time-and-Work" is a true way to bill.
EVERY MINUTE COUNTS!!!!!!
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Doug, no I'm not defending the bid request, just saying that's about all you can expect from someone who isn't a specialist, ie: at this stage in the game the graphic designer is more like an architect. They know how they want it to look and might even have an inkling of the materials and steps required to bring the job to fruition, but it's the specialists like the engineers and contractors that bear the burden of making it work well. The difference is, designers do artwork and specialists work in numbers. When a designer gives a specialist freedom to set their own numbers, most specialists will freak out about it but a few will take the opportunity to drive the job they want it to be.
This project is more of a public works project or an environmental graphics job than a sign being stuck on a building for a business. It requires a slightly different approach than your usual sign gig - gotta look at it more like a construction project.
I have two stories below.
When I was working at an engineering firm before moving to AZ, we were contacted to bid on engineering work for the new Disney Concert Hall in L.A., this was years before they even broke ground on it. Their tender documents included a whole crapload of specs, the package was 20 pages thick of spec after spec after spec.. but they had included only one drawing - a photocopy of the napkin Frank Gehry scribbled his concept sketch on. D'OH!!! We miraculously bid on it, tied up man hours in concept details and such.. even did some engineering work on another section of the building, but today the real building is quite different than what the concepts included, ie: they ditched the idea of using titanium exterior panels for stainless steel instead, and they decided not to have every panel hand-formed to follow the compound curvature of the concrete wall they're attached to. In fact they ditched a lot of the original ideas because once someone with a brain actually figured out costs and technical issues, they decided it wasn't feasible.
The last building project I worked on was a doozy.. in fact, if anyone in New York makes a trip into Manhattan, stop by 731 Lexington Ave. It's a new office tower/hotel complex and it was a nightmare. The architects (world renowned Caeser Pelli, these guys do some awesome buildings and I've worked on a handful of them) gave us a lot of freedom on that job as far as numbers go. They provided dimensions and such on their plans but the geometry of the building was so complicated they said "Our numbers are just a guide, feel free to make any changes you need in order to make it work.".. Great, not only do their numbers not work out right, they want us to figure it all out and let them know what's up. First I have to say the the engineering firm I'm working with is involved strictly in designing and engineering windows on commercial buildings and highrises. Before we knew it, we were telling the architects where we needed the edges of the floor slabs to be so we could attach the window units properly and easily, which they allowed us to do but it is a bit odd that the window designers are allowed to basically override what the structural engineers have already established... so we have the window guys now driving the structural design of this building, but instead of going straight to the structural guys, we have to consult the architects (who are just happy they didnt have to figure out their piece of crap and are willing to do whatever we tell them as long as its aesthetically pleasing) and we also have to go through the General Contractor, who of course is reluctant but eventually folled suit because we already had a plan in place with the architect's blessing and the GC would have to eat costs if he didn't budge and things didnt work out right once construction was underway.
By the way, as much of a pain in the butt the Concert Hall and the Hotel/Office project (Bloomberg Tower) were, they're both very cool buildings and it's cooler knowing I had my hands in some of it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
These are the 2 parts that confused me on your reply Mike:
quote: Not every job is handed to you with precise details worked out, that's YOUR job, afterall if they knew your business they wouldn't need you for help...
yeah... "my job" IF they want to hire me as a consultant... not just because they have my email address.
quote:...You're going to spend time bidding jobs you don't win, it's a fact of doing business.
Yes, once it is clear what exactly they would like done, I would expect to freely invest my time calculating the material & labor costs expected to meet their specifications.
posted
Well I am a consultant, I believe it is best to give as much information possible to give the client a better product, one of the ways is asking signshops or manufacturers who are qualified to help-during the design process, addressing all the RFI's during the bid process for alternates. There are a few consultants (we do, we have 3-not including me) who hire sign shop draftsman to develop clear bid documents, and have had great success in getting accurate bids and weeding out unqualified sign vendors who can't bid on a project, because they can't do it, because the documents are that clear. As far as struuctural, that is a different story, most qualified siighshops aready have a structural engineer(or have one as a sub) and can add an allowance on the bid for engineering, why would a designer do structural (which we can) when we are not building the sign and are not responsible for it's structural integrity. Bidding on unfinished (fuzzy concept to slightly workable drawings) is a disservice to yourself and the client, and a big waste of time if you are not compensate for the hassle. The last big design package II did had 8 pages of specs and around 250 design pages that show overall, section and color callouts, even the back of the sign to limit any confusion, that way the client knows what they are getting, and I don't get anyne "interpreting" the design.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I hope this isn't to much here.....here is a recent drawing I did for bidding, I also remember Doug posted one a while back that was pretty detailed. The first image is the overall design, and sizes, the second in construction detail and sections, the third is color and layout. This gets tedious after doing 2-300 sign types but it works.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I just reworked a reply using some of my original, & lifting much of Jons wording or intent (thanks Jon )
This is what I came up with:
quote:Hi Tod, Thanks for the opportunity to become involved with your "Legacy Wall" project. I enjoy taking on more involved projects such as this & can assure you of my qualifications to do so.
When bidding on work like this however, my foremost concern is the unanswered questions regarding materials, methods of construction, & various design solutions such as streamlining the process of adding names in the future. A bid request that leaves these details out could easily bring in a wide range of prices based on an equally wide range of design solutions. Because you are placing such importance on durability and vandal resistance, I trust you agree that the highest priority must be given to specifying the most suitable materials and techniques for production. Although the initial investment may be higher, maintenance costs will be significantly lower. Ultimately this will ensure that all of your objectives are met, including those for minimizing costs. I think clarifying the multitude of details required to properly discuss making your beautiful presentation drawing into a three dimensional reality is a job in itself, & bidding on producing the project can only happen after someone does that job.
I suggest that you consider first contracting a qualified consultant from within the sign industry to assist you in developing the specifications upon which the production phase of your project will be carried out. I would be pleased to assist you in this manner, should you decide the suggestion has merit. My rate for this sort of consultation is $60 per hour. I would estimate allowing for a minimum of 6 hours to research & discuss suitable material choice comparisons, production technique options, as well as installation & site condition concerns. I am also available to produce final bid proposal drawings, specifications & construction documents.
I appreciate your consideration of my company for involvement on this project.
Please contact me If you would like to discuss my availability for consultation services. Of course, once clear specifications are in place, I would also appreciate the opportunity to bid on completing production of the “Legacy Wall”.
posted
Nice job Rick! that showed up while I was typing. Not only a great sign, but excellent presentation. That's the kind of bid package I'm happy to provide free estimates on
Yes, I did post some detailed drawings earlier this year. ( shown HERE )
I won a bid for 13K worth if ADA signage installed at the County planning dept. (home of the sign ordinance "police" & provider of sign permits)
Once I met with them to begin work, I discovered that they paid an interior designer (with no relevant experience) to prepare the bid. Her work was just good enough to "appear" well thought out, so only after winning the work did I discover that NONE of her plaque sizes & Letter sizes worked together. The next 2 weeks of the project were spent on preparing, reviewing & revising a final 20 page set of drawings to resolve all the inaccuracies.
Fortunately I was able to propose enough money saving alternatives to offset the resulting cost overruns including compensation for my redesigning of the entire project.
posted
Doug, I haven't read all of the other replies, but this is where I would certainly use tier pricing. I have started landing a lot of jobs using it. That, giving them 3 or 4 prices considering different methods. The cheap one of course guaranteeing your foot in the door.
You also might want to consider working with a ceramicist, and work it like a mosiac. I think you can add names and re-fire the blocks. I don't think Corian is going to remain colorful for that many years.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I would completely drop the second paragraph and again, drop any mention of time and shop rates for the first round of email.
The reason being, it can simply be said as "I recommend hiring a sign consultant who can help your organization finalize materials and construction details, then develop bid/tender documents for submission to subcontractors for bidding... and I'm just the person to do that for you."
Prices for the services can be discussed after you've already established an open line of communication.
You need to take it one step at a time when you are dealing with email, it's completely different than someone walking into your shop that you can speak to face to face. Imagine walking into a shop, any shop in any industry, and within the first 10 seconds you're there the first words you hear are reasons that someone cannot help you and how much money they want in order to get someone to help you - that's exactly what your response is saying.
I used to send detailed emails all the time when I was starting out, asking people for measurements or photos of their vehicles and reasons for this or that - it never worked because the typed/read word is cold and hard. It comes across as very matter of factly which isn't a bad thing, it's just not good for landing sales. I once showed my dad one of the responses I had sent someone, simply asking for measurements, and he said "Well, I wouldn't have responded to your email either because right off the bat you're hitting them over the head with details, before you even say Hi or shake their hand."
I'd probably say the same thing about your response.
Simplify the email, urge them to split the job into two phases: Design with a consultant, and production.
Then in the next round of email (or get the guy's phone number to expedite things) try to sell them on hiring you as the consultant. Go on contract basis, not what you estimate it will take you to bang out details. You estimate 6-8 hours to do it but in reality they're going to pester you 2-3 days every week for two months while they're waiting for the sign to be built, cause somebody somewhere is going to screw something up and you'll have to figure out how to fix it.
Once you are the consultant and all the job details are worked out, develop the bid docs and send them to other sign companies including your own, so they can accept bids on production with everyone using the same quality materials and identical production methods, following precise plans that even a monkey couldn't screw up. They probably will go with the lowest bidder on this part because of the level playing field - all they have to do is follow the plans.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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When dealing with government/foundations/and or charitable organizations, you are bound to run into the "Peter Principle"!!!!!!!!!!!1
"Peter Ptinciple states that personell will rise through the ranks until they reach theier level of incompetence. Because of 'good old boy' networking, they will remain there until retirement!"
Been there, done that....got the Tshirt!
[ December 24, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This thread is one of the prime reasons why residency of letterville is cheap- the advice above is absolutely PRICELESS. OK,so it's free to non-residents too, but for $50 it's worth every cent 100s of times over.
Doug, all replies are great. I was going to reply similarly with Mike about paragraph 2. Because emails are so hard and fast, you sometimes needto slowly 'sneak' new ideas upon people, a hint or two at a time, unless the customer is already sold on you.
Also, wordiness is important- so is precision- but a lot of people are turned off by paragraphs of more than 3 or 4 lines and will skim over or not even read them. So, keep the paragraphs SHORT, hard though it can be!
best wishes
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Thanks for all the replies. 2nd paragraph is deleted... email is sent!
Felix, you are probably right! But, I do feel time spent on my email will be useful far into the future. Time spent on carefully estimating material & labor costs on my version of how this project could be done would have possibly been a somewhat wasteful use of my time.
They may go with the lowest bidder & get vinyl on sintra... but at least I wouldn't have already figured out how to, & how much to do it in granite & gold-leaf.
posted
Doug, exactly.. bidding out the job with every detail would have been a waste of time because it is easy for them to base their choice on pricing, and that is what the consultant angle is trying to avoid.
It's kinda like getting them to pay for design work as a separate item from the production aspect, 'cept in this case there would have been much more detail put into it. It's just like any other job though in the respect that if they don't want to pay for design time, you probably don't want the job anyway.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I caught myself wondering how things turned out for you with this client / this project. What was their response? Enquiring minds want to know!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Hi Jon, I see your signature changed, hope the marketing consulting business is going well so far. I was prompted by you post to call my client. He had just returned today from some down time due to a hip injury & apologized for not having contacted me yet.
I refreshed his memory of the reply I had sent & we spoke briefly about the sensibility of my paid consultant scenario. He remembered my hourly rate & inquired if I could project how many hours might be needed.
Armed with all the insights I gained from this thread, I compared projecting hours required on research such as this, to the challenges of pricing design work, stating that you could always do more.
I estimated that a minimum of 6 hours would provide enough time to establish all the criteria specific to their project & to look at how that criteria would impact the short term & long term costs of the different material & production method choices.
I said there was no guarantee that our research would find any solution that met their budget, ("low" is all I know about that)but it would provide enough information to make an informed decision about how his project could be completed, & from there they could find out what the budget needs to be if they want to go forward with it properly.
I think I was respected fully for my honesty & my position on the terms under which I could help him. He started the conversation explaining how they hoped to get feedback from professionals to "fill in the blanks" on the vague design & production decisions. In the end I was told that he will be taking my proposal to the committee, & I think he will be supporting its validity.
Sounds like you've taken things a couple of steps further in the right direction.
Hope you don't mind a few more suggestions...
I don't know how comfortable you might be with this sort of thing, but you might consider calling Tod back and asking when the committee meeting is and to ask if he would like you to accompany him. Why? If any questions come up that Tod can't answer, your progress may halt and his "legacy wall" vision might never materialize.
If Tod is cool with the idea, you might also want to consider contacting this satisfied customer and asking them if they would mind providing you with a "testimonial" about how very pleased they were with the consultation/specification phases of the project, with actual vs budget, and with the finished project. If they are willing to help, then write the testimonial for them, fax it and have them sign it off. By writing it yourself, you can touch on just the right points and (trust me) you will get it faster. You should also ask their permission for what I suggest next.
When you get to the committee meeting, go prepared to distribute a copy of the specs you developed for "KALANA PAKUI" as a part of your presentation. Talk about the types of challenges that creating a good set of specs helps your clients overcome -- and what kind of dough can be saved as a result. They seem very concerned with the budget...so let them know that a well developed set of specs is essential to keeping the project on budget. Be sure to have a question period. As you thank everyone for the opportunity, close by handing out a page with shots of the finished Kalana project and featuring their testimonial.
Good luck!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
This has been a great post to read. I agree with Ian that a post such as this is worth the resident fee. I just got the opportunity to read this post. I have on several occasions had people come in acting like they know exactly what they want like a sandblasted sign. I quote them on what they ask for. Then a month later they have a MDO sign up, but that was not their indication to start. I always give them a second option now.
Doug, I know this is different from your situation, but I know how frusrating it can be to continually quote for people and never see any work. Good Luck on this project.
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, we are really swamped right now.
We have put the Legacy Wall project on the backburner, and we will be redesigning it to be be more cost-effective. If you're interested in quoting the revised version when it is completed, I will forward the specs to you.
Thanks again for your interest.
Aloha,
Tod __
Tod Gunter Graphic Design
I suppose some other vendors gave them some numbers to help them figure out they couldn't afford what they drew. I hope they didn't work to long & hard on coming up with those numbers... or, at least I sure am glad I didn't
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