posted
It's fascinating how a thread can come back from the past like this... has it really been four years?
Eric asks a very thoughtful question. The answer is that you cannot control the whims of your clients. When I design a sign and the customer goes to someone else for less money, it means not only are they are NOT getting what I would give them, in terms of the physical sign, but they are not getting the design, they are not getting the image I create for their business, they are not getting my experience or expertise. All they get, tangibly, is the difference between my price and my competitors. What they lose is the value of what I can do for their image.
Lately I've begun to compare signs to men's suits. A tailor on Saville Row who charges $5000 for a custom-made hand-sewn worsted wool suit, is not going to be expected to compete with the Chinese-made polyester-blend job sold at Walmart for $75. Technically, that Walmart suit does exactly the same thing as the one from Saville Row - it covers naked bodies - but the image is entirely different. Maybe, for someone like Fred, that Walmart suit won't make him look like a used Pontiac salesman from East Providence. Maybe it won't fray, or split, or look shiny in a month or so, but the fact is, it probably will. Now ask yourself - do you seriously think the Saville Row tailor charges according to his time and materials? Would anyone with any sense expect him to? And lastly, would he spend a New York minute worrying about the price of a Walmart suit? Why not? Because a Saville Row tailor is not in the business of coverng naked bodies with cloth, he's in the business of making his customers look good. Cutting and sewing just happen to be his method.
In the same way, I am not in the business of arranging letters on a piece of material, I'm in the business of making my clients businesses look good. That has value, value that goes way beyond the cost of materials or how much time I spend, and my goal is to be compensated, not for time, or materials, but for the value I provide to my clients.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
What Jack said. It beats the other one hands down. Great discussion!
-------------------- Laurie Corl Same Day Signs 5327 Jacuzzi St. unit 2D Richmond, California 94803 Posts: 30 | From: Richmond, California | Registered: Dec 2004
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With the uglist logo going... and the cheapest prices on the market can be one of the biggest marketers in the world?
I think it is called volume!
We all have seen the Sears and Eatons and Hudson Bays (here in Canada or the USA) That would like to over inflat pricing but went bankrupt. Trying to convience the general public of the goods.
Sorry folks! it is now an all out WWW. customer market.
How many have bought on E-Slay just because you wanted your nickels in your pocket.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Wal-Mart's inventory control system and buying power have long been recognized as the backbone of their success. Do their products have "perceived value? Sure...they are perceived as "lower prices...always" through a long running marketing campaign that they have effectively kept to, even if it's for just 11 cents less than the competition.
Low price and value are often considered long before longevity and appearance. That's why Wal-Mart continues to dominate the retail sales market while many franchise sign shops continue to pop up...the "volume sales" strategy.
But, you can't buy a high end car stereo system at Wally World, and you sure don't see them doing installations. Smaller shops who cater to the kids who like big sub woofers and can install them are still doing well. They have found their niche and know what their market can bear in regards to price and service offered.
Find a need, fill it and price it according to the market. If it doesn't work, it might be time to switch needs. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
wow! a blast from the past and its mine......hahaha. I'd forgotten all about this one. when I read my original post I forgot what I had even said. course' I can't remember what I had for breakfast most days.
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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Check out the price tag. Yes, it covers more than just the design but not a lot more.
The right price to me? If I can ask it without laughing (or crying) and they don't laugh (or swear) back at me about it then everyone is happy and I'm doing work for the right kind of people.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm finding it hard to stay out of this one. Dan, Fred and Rick actually sound to me like they are on the same page, they just do very different work.
Dan has always mentioned the corollary to pricing at "value" versus time and materials; providing a unique product or service that is simply not available elsewhere.
Fred is selling primarily vinyl graphics and trying to add value to what would otherwise be a commodity by "taking it to the highest level", presumable through design or craftsmanship.
Rick correctly identified why large corporate clients are charged more than small Mom and Pops. It's a lot more demanding to provide a branding service to a large corporation than it is to provide a logo to a local mortgage broker. It takes more skill, more experience, more meetings, more time, etc.
If you sell high end identity signs (like I do) and also sell simple aluminum parking signs (like I also do)you will probably find yourself pricing like Cam does at least once in a while.
It would be like the ad agency who is qualified to do the large corporate branding trying to competitively sell Mom and Pop logos. They would probably have trouble making money doing so, just as we do selling aluminum parking signs.
Dan avoids this trap. He never pretends to sell plain old signs.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: If you sell high end identity signs (like I do) and also sell simple aluminum parking signs (like I also do)you will probably find yourself pricing like Cam does at least once in a while.
It would be like the ad agency who is qualified to do the large corporate branding trying to competitively sell Mom and Pop logos. They would probably have trouble making money doing so, just as we do selling aluminum parking signs.
Isn't ever good business started from the ground up? Those 'Mom's and Dads' are the back bone of our commerce.. We can grow with them as long as everyone signs the agreement or contract documents+
Every small thing we do ads to their best interest...
Allowing them to breath in the mist of their own wows and payments. I will never call them clients but more so of friends.
My wife just told myself the other night about a Small Little Book called...
"Don't Sweat the Big Stuff, Focus on the little things!" Over time you will make it to your goal.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I think you also have to price a little bit on what you think your designs/ideas are worth. You may not sit at the computer and draw a design out until you have spent a lot of time in researching your ideas. Even if they are in the back of your head while you are working on other projects, its still thought process that deserves to be recognized even just a little. If a wealthy client comes to you and gives you a budget of $15,000 to sign his restaurant, he may not need the signs for 2 months as its being built, and you may not start them for 1, but the thoughts still roam around up there in your brain taking up space. (And you will come up with a better idea than the guy down the street.) I think that should be figured in to the equation somehow.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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