posted
I know this sounds stupid, but I'm serious. How can one figure it. Just like a post I just read where a guy wanted a cheap sign, and then turned right around and said his new business was going to be a gold mine. Do you instantly double the price of his cheap sign? $5.00 worth of vinyl, and an hour of labor to letter a "quickie" on a $100G Kenworth. (no I didn't do it, this is just an example). Do you charge the guy $50 bucks, or what its worth. And if you charge him what its worth, how do you arrive at that figure. I know I figure time and materials all the time, and not all the time, but a lot, decide in my head "that's not enough" and pump the price. If they squirm, I can always back it down a little. What's your take on this subject. Any good "methods"?
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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Cutting out a pair of "#213" letters - 6" high in black vinyl, to put a fleet number on the truck is not a work of art, just a quick utility job, some experience needed, nothing fancy. Does the truck value figure in??? Or the company's worth???
Now doing the same numbers, 2 or 3 custom blended colors, with all the flourishes & stuff, if you are good with a brush, you might even be done faster! But this one relied on your 20 years of brushwork experience, practice, traveling & learning the trade, practice, practice, and more.
Are these two situations the same??? Do the prices have to be???
-------------------- Bob Sheers 24 Hour Services Columbia, MD USA 410-995-3655 bob@go-to-airport.com Posts: 140 | From: Columbia, MD, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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"Is it art?" is the wrong question to be asking. Rather ask, "What will this sign do for the customer?"
If the sign is going to be a prime identification sign, its purpose is to attract customers and increase sales, thus, it acts as on-site advertising. This is an entirely different purpose than a "no parking" sign, which is strictly informational; ie, it doesn't advertise anything.
Thus, an 18 square foot sign identifying a restaurant, is advertising - and worth FAR more to any intelligent customer than an 18 square foot "Customer Parking Only" sign(I use the caveat "intelligent customer", because some are just not ). The perceived value is based on its value as advertising, and pricing is adjusted accordingly.
This system works, and works well, because it avoids the whole "time and materials" trap that so many sign people fall into. An 18 sqf sign is going to cost X amount in time and materials to produce. The "extra" that you charge for a sign that advertises, as opposed to one that merely informs, is the percieved value - it pays not for time and materials, but for advertising. To leave that money on the table, based on a T&M formula, is not only foolish, it has a negative effect on the entire industry, because it reinforces the public perception that signage has very little real value.
As for a "formula", anything that has to do with pricing is dependent upon your own situation, but here's an example from my system, for what it's worth. The above mentioned 18 sqft restaurant sign, single faced, using di-bond or MDO and paint/vinyl, is $1200 to $1500, depending somewhat upon design and complexity. An 18 sqft "Customer Parking Only" sign, using the same materials, is $350. The actual intrinsic value of both signs is roughly the same; the difference is in how the customer perceives the relative value of the purpose these signs are intending to fulfill. A sign that convinces people to come in, sit down, and buy a $25 fish dinner is far more valuable than one telling people where to park.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Signage has tradionally been valued as an advertising media in relation to the number of impacts each day.Most areas of the U.S. will have a t.a.b.(traffic audit board) count for the number of vehicles on any given day that pass along a stretch of road.these are those black hoses you see stretched across the road periodically.These counts are designated for highway maintenance but the outdoor industry has adapted them for defining the value of advertising impacts.In major metro areas this can be quite useful as there can possibly be hundreds of thousand if not more impressions each day.A good ad displayed in a major business route will impact idealistically all of the drivers in a given area in a years time,thus contacting a huge majority of the buying public.
In smaller areas it may be more practical to compare advertising values to the competition rather than the lower highway counts.Compared to a newspaper or radio ad that may cost hundreds of dollars for one day in print and or seconds if not less on the airwaves a sign comes in the equation in the pennies range in cost of impacts per thousand. A good sign is out there 24/7 also it is not just for one day/week/30 second spot,...etc.
All in all the basic equation is directly perportional to the number of impressions the signage will impact.You must however include the factor that storefront signage is also a necessity for identification and business image. All the newspaper and radio/tv advertising in the world is worthless unless the general buying public can locate the retail and or service facility.
Finally I might ad a good way to figure percieved value is to contact your local advertising media reps (tv/radio/newspaper/periodicals/outdoor industry) and get some prices that your competition charges for time/space.When you compare figures,quality signage usually can be percieved to be of much more value than the silly notion of time/materials/profit formula.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Don't he talk good? And besides that, he backs it up with top-of-the-line work and a head for business. We all would do well to listen to what he has to say.
[ April 12, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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i often struggle with this...for example...a customer wants a simple..."park there somewhere" sign...3' x 4', now i'm not gonna be gettin more than $150 for it whether it's on dibond(which i prefer)or mdo(which i hate)...example #2...a simple 2 door truck lettering job(1-2hr job)..$150...i'm going to be making much more $$ on that truck job because i only have probably $10 of vinyl...the sign i have either dibond(yeah)& vinyl or mdo(wasted time painting & fartin around with edges)and vinyl. gee..which would i rather do??? so basically i'd have to say i hate making those no parking, no smoking, no skateboarding etc...unless there's more than 3.
it would be nice to pick and choose all the time but the reality is i can't...my great customers who give me boat loads of business every year need those pain in the a$$ signs too. so i guess i'll get back to work on this absolutely gorgeous saturday!!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Yah! thats where I have trouble too Karyn. Joe Kenworth pulls up in his new 100G Chrome and Dark Blue metal flake Argh Argh Argh! I layout a design, he approves, and I go to work. That evening he picks it up and writes me a check for $500.00. One week later Joe calls me and needs a white .080 aluminum sign for his lot "drivers are to leave lot lizards at truck stop". This sign costs me more to produce material wise, and maybe took a couple of hours less than the truck. I can't charge him $450.00 for the sign. when I only charge him $100.00 and he asks why his rig was $500.00 what do I tell him? I have run into this and it is very uncomfortable to me, and if not delt with properly, news travels fast and then your name is Mudd Signs.
[ April 12, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Dave Utter ]
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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Hiya Dave, Ya should have charged more for the sign! Seriously though, perceived value is what you make of it using the methods described by Cam & Timi. I also judge the cost by the type of client and how they present themselves or their business. When you're dealing with trucks or other types of delivery vehicles, you know the client is not making money with that vehicle in your shop. So that vehicle gets your total attention until it's completed. When doing a no parking sign that will be picked up at a later date, you can plan better and process the job with other similar projects, saving you time and materials. You're just passing the savings to your client.
Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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For the most part I cannot agree with the concept of perceived pricing. I charge for time and materials and I charge higher rates for those things which require a higher level of experise, utilizes tools or training for which I have invested, or that are more inconvenient, risky or costly to perform.
I charge more per hour if I'm off the ground. More to work at the client's site than at my shop. More for designing than for typesetting.
But to subjectively decide that the use and benefit my client will receive from two equal pieces of work and then charge differently for them is economic suicide if repeat business has anything to do with future success.
I wonder how many of you that use perceived price would ever inform your client that your fee or quotation was based on that principle?
It's not unlike the two sides of commercial photograph and illustration licensing. There's the limited run sellers and the royalty free sellers. The first will charge you $1,000 for a beautiful sunset and agree not to let anyone else use it for a year while you agree not to reproduce it more than 1000 times. The second one will charge you $10 for an equally beautiful sunset with no restrictions but will sell it to anyone else that wants it at any time.
Guess who does more business.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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I like that Fred. Not that Cam and everyones ideas aren't sound, but I would feel more comfortable with Fred's method, mainly because I'm in a small rural community. Fred, can you give us an idea of your pricing. Not necessarily your prices, but, lets say you charge $50.00 an hour for design, what would you charge for: "off of the ground"___"at the customers place"___"typsetting"___"vinyl application"___etc.. How do you break it down. At least this would give me a solid base to guage things on. You'll have to excuse me for my stupidity, but I've been doing signs for 25 years, and have hardly ever met another sign person until I found this place, and just last year attended my first letterhead meet. Its neet to get your spin on things. And maybe it will make me more profitable. (and maybe even give me more time to go fishing)
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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Dave, I'll add to this interesting thread. I've learned plenty here on this board & still am, so my current view on this will probably change but right now it's more like Fred's I think. I also like Checkers explanation which is the same as what I use to describe why door lettering costs more then magnets even though I "save" on not providing the magnet.
I think the right price for a job is what you can get.
On advertising type signs, creating designs that you are satisfied with, & then getting one of them approved by the client is often more work then for something like a parking sign. Often the extra design work is also creating extra production labor & material cost with extra colors, outlines etc. These signs are more expensive anyway based on the T&M. How much more you can "get" is based in part on the advertising value, the reputation you have with that client & to some degree, except with the most loyal clients, what others may have quoted.
Unless people are lucky enough to be the only game in town, I think most of us have to bid close to the market value in your region. How much "extra" one can get for percieved value is somewhat set by that. The better designers get more for their expertise, & higher prices are expected from them. They may be getting enough quote requests that even if they bid heigher then all the competition, enough people want there work, that those who won't pay for it are of no concern.
I disagree that after a good loyal client pays a high price for something like a truck lettering job, we are obligated to do a similar amount of work for a lower profit because they now want a parking sign. If the parking sign is way easy with less design time, less material, & less production labor then of course we could afford to do it for less. But If they think it should be only costing $100, & we don't need $100 bad enough to want that type of work, I don't think a loyal client would be offended if told to go ahead & have a quicky-sticky do it for $100. That would improve your reputation as the design orientated high level sign professional. Parking signs add (or subtract) from the clients image as well, so we could offer a $250 version of the "cheap" sign, explaining that the impression of themselves they give their clients is like the one you hope all your signs give you, which is to be a few notches above the average, If they still want an average sign, they need to get it from an average shop.
posted
What Cam said!.... all I can ad to it is I never give my customer the chance to haggle with me, no itemized estimates, no excuses.... I don't need all the work just the good work, and I expect to get paid for it. Great post Dave!
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
I was a young apprentice when some designer friend that thought I was the hottest letterer on the beach bought a very expensive yacht. This was then the ten meter that held the world record. Here was this long and lean dark green beauty, and the lettering was only three inches tall and gilded on two sides...seven letters. There were several letterers in the area more qualified than I, but it was mine to do. I asked one of the old timers about pricing and he told me that there are three kinds of boat owners. There are hundredaire's, thousandaire's, and millionaire's, and to price accordingly. For the same job done on a skiff as an ellegant yacht there would be very different pricing. The skiff owner couldn't afford the yachtsmans fee and the yachtsman would be offended if he were charged the skiff owners fee.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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All other things being equal Dave, my general shop rate is $50 per hour (limited to work I do within my shop), $75 for on-site work or vehicle applications, and $100 when a ladder is involved.
Basic job setups for vinyl or Edge production are included in predetermined prices and adjusting factors based on either letter count and size or just plain square footage. Adding graphics and special effects, hand digitizing etc. we shift into $50 per hour with increased rates for short deadlines.
I don't charge more or less for vinyl application. Don't even figure it that way. I charge that out by the square foot, subject to minimums and then adjust for difficult surfaces like rivets, corrugated, off the ground, etc. Base rate here is $3.50 a square foot. The difference here is what I would pay an employee to do it. Two employees giving acceptable results and one can do 20 feet an hour while the other can average 25 feet an hour are not paid the same hourly rate.
We also tend to adjust our overall pricing based on our perceived value of the customer. Well organized customers requiring less sales time and/or with greater potential for repeat business get better pricing than disorganized ones that start out asking "how much is a sign?". Those who demonstrate their own perception that a sign is a commodity and has no value to them beyond that get our highest prices.
None of this has much to do with how they dress, speak, or what they drove up in.
Finally, since we like to stay busy, we tend to be more competitive when our work load is low and less competitive when we're snowed under. We've noticed that when we're snowed under is when we seem to have the highest perceived value to our customers as well.
[ April 13, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Fred Weiss ]
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fred, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I have no problem explaining the difference between a sign that advertises, and one that merely informs. I can do so by comparing signage to print or other advertising media - compare the cost of a primary identification sign to that of a newspaper, magazine, or TV/radio ad, by how long the sign will last, how many impressions it will give (to use Timi's words), and ultimately how much it costs over time.
Ad agencies don't sell advertising by a time/materials formula. Neither do newspapers, magazines, or TV stations. Graphic designers who charge $$$$$$$$$ for corporate logos don't charge by T&M. Talk about "economic suicide"! People in the sign biz who sell advertising - and that's what it is when we create a primary identification sign - by time and materials are cutting their own throats and devaluing the industry as a whole.
As for the customers who take offense because that 18 square foot sign that identifies a restaurant costs three times more than an 18 square foot parking sign, well, chances are, they aren't going to be MY customers. Oh well. I'm far more willing to work with a client who is bright enough to figure out the basic concepts of advertising and relative value, anyway. Those who can't or won't are more than welcome to become someone else's problem.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If I was selling space on a billboard, I would determine the price based on demand and traffic going by ..... impressions. In a publication, I'd be basing rates on similar attributes. But in both cases, I am the one delivering the impressions through my media. And the price would be the same whether the design was good or bad.
I would still charge the same to design the information to be placed on the billboard regardless of whether the client stood to gain a return of $5000 or $500,000. And I would charge the same to execute the design on the billboard. The client that stands to gain the most is also going to be my best prospect to buy space and the value, in impressions, that I deliver combined with his ability to benefit is what will determine my rate. In other words, my rate is based on the highest perceived benefit of the advertising value I deliver. But I am providing the media.
What I am disagreeing with is that if your business is in the business of creating and executing graphic designs than your fees should be based on how well you do that. If my design for a vehicle rolling down the highway works better than the design from the guy up the street then I have will be able to charge more for it and my customer's perception that this is the case will cause him to agree. But my perception of how much or little the customer will benefit has no bearing on what I will quote my fees at.
If I did that then I would charge a mom and pop business servicing appliances less to do their van than I would charge the appliance dealer with 20 delivery trucks for each of his vans with an equal amount of time, materials and design time. The opposite is, in reality, the case because of the potential volume of work I can get from the appliance dealer.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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I have a job pending which involves designing an identity for a start-up airline. They want a logo, graphics for their planes, web site, and stationary. It will probably go further than that with some promotional animation and ???. There will be some long distance travel involved.
It's a wonderful opportunity. Who here hasn't had a hankering to paint an airplane? And to design a graphics package for a cutting edge is a kick as well.
They have already had other designers try their hand at things but haven't hit on a workable solution as of yet. They want me to give it a try becuase my stuff is so different - "out of the box".
Because it is an airline - is it worth more than say the same package for a trucking company or a retail company?
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Dave, I've read all the replies here and I also keep goin' back up an' re-readin your question an' tho'ts, too. Please tell me what I'm not gettin' here.....if a guy with a 100G kenworth wants a (not "cheap"), I prefer to say "plain jane" job, what does it matter that you charge him a plain price accordingly? Likewise, if an' old log truck rolls in an' wants to shoot the works, am I gonna sqirm an' fudge for him 'cuz I think he might be broke or the vehicle's not worth it?? It occurs to me that one may not want their best work displayed on such a "canvas", or have their plainest work sittin' on a georgeous vehicle. This is when I have to be the mediator between me and my work, explaining to the kenworth owner that he would be doin' himself a diservice to not have a lettering job that reflects the quality of his vehicle, etc.. For the logger, I would gently inquire into the daily use of the tractor, and question if he may be planning to buy a new rig soon, etc. I find everyday that a lot of customers simply don't know what they need. Ultimately, they make the choice based on their budget, time, common sense, or lack there-of. I guess what I'm saying is I have to charge for the Job according to time and materials involved. My standard cookie-cutter, bread-n-butter, "parking" signs may or may not be "cheap", or less costly depending on specifics. But, the extra nice stuff is ALWAYS gonna cost more, like evereything else in this life..........at any rate, I'm still sittin' here wonderin' if I've totally missed the point or what? heh,heh!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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OK, lets take Dan for instance. Lets forget the travel involved, and for the sake of apples to apples he designs a logo for a trucking company, lets say with 30 trucks. He then disigns a logo for an airline. Lets say with 300 planes world wide. Time doesn't come into this, but for the sake of apples to apples, he spends 16 hours on each. The logos even look very similar. The trucking company gets their bill for 2G's. The airline gets their bill for 8G's. Dan doesn't realize it but the guy who owns the airline is golfing buds with the trucking guy. oh oh. the plot thickens. What happens when they get a few beers in them on the 16th hole and........................ My point is: If I walk in Walmart and buy a toaster for 400.00, and the next day find out my buddy bought the same toaster at Walmart for 25.00, I'm gonna be P'd at myself AND Walmart. I kinda' go along with the wealthier guy being embarassed if he didn't "pay more than the other guy" too, but all of the "loaded" guys I know are also the biggest cheapskates I know. hahaha. Most wouldn't buy a car from their own mother, if they could save 50 cents down the street. . Can you put a formula to perceived value, or is it just a seat of the pants, risky kinda thing that one learns over time, and adjusts to with each and every customer, and every change of the economy.
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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...Heh,heh....Where's that post about sayings that irk ya.............."percieved value"? What is this, an episode of "sightings"? Dave, again I fail to get it. This is not unusual as I fail to get a great many things, LOL. But, hon, you most certainly did not compare apples with apples when you compare a fleet of 30 tractors,(did that include the trailer?) with 300 airplanes. (Were those jumbos or little commuter jets?) It really does'nt matter. And I would imagine such successful business men could easily fi'ger out why one paid more than the other given the size and quantity of the two jobs..............are you high? LOL. By the way please don't "read" any severe sarcasm or anger into this...just s'um friendly sign-grind banter an' debate to see what we can learn about why we're doin' this in the first place,lol. By the way, I may very well go in wal-mart an' get the $14.96 toaster right after you get the $48 one....but did you not choose the additional features, and consider all your needs, budget, etc.? That IS comparin' apples with apples.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't know of any "formula" to figure value, but most of the examples of higher pricing seem to be permanent ID signs, so maybe that is part of the formula... to separate ID signs from our list of regular jobs? Cam's approach is like that of a salesman...get as much as you can. Like used car salesmen, who learn to size up their next victim. OK...that's too harsh. Not "victim". But you know what I mean- Cam is saying to be more like a salesman...to push for a higher commission, so to speak.That's good for some people, who may actually BE good salepeople, but unfortunately, there are a lot of us who aren't. Me included. So for those who are less gifted, the best option may be to follow pricing guidelines that we set, thus the old T&M thing.It seems "safer". Plus, someone other than myself, for example, can talk intelligently to a customer because they have the pricing right in front of them. This takes pressure off the sign shop owner, as they don't have to handle every mundane quote, if they want to focus on other things, plus enabling time for outside jobs and travel.
Even using T&M guidelines, I think we should be more aware of the more permanent signs, and the opportunity to try some good old fashioned salesmanship, so that on occasion, we may be able to get more for a particular job. Add in that percieved value thing.
Dave...this is a great post. And "percieved value" is contradictory in itself. How do you percieve, or "see", a thing like value, which is not an object, but a concept or idea? OOps, sorry...that's getting too far astray..........
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sheila, am I bad? I'm not very good at explainin' schtuff by typing. All I'm talkin' about is the logo. Just an 8x10 color glossy with pictures and arrows on the back, explainin' what each on is to be used as evidence.......waite a minute.........that's the song I'm listening to. Anyhow, you get the idea. Not 747's compared to KW's. just the logo. period. which is apples to apples. And Jeff, I don't think you are too far astray, this is a concept or an idea, but because it is just a concept or idea, there is no real tangable way to figure it from one person to another, or one job to another. I guess that's why its such a mystery to me..........
[ April 15, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Dave Utter ]
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Being a graphic designer who does Branding and Identity, if Dan does (theoretically) chargeS 8000.00 dollars for an Airline logo program, than he is way undercharging. There is a guide on how to charge for "DESIGN". There is a big difference between "design" and "layout" regardless of the time involved. An average production designer can layout, it takes experience and talent to design a complete Branding package. There are references, and it shows the differences between designing a logo, and doing an "Identity" A must have for everone who designs logos is the first and last book in this small list there about 30 really good books on the subject but these are indespensible IMHO:
Graphic Artists Guild Handbook : Pricing & Ethical Guidelines (Graphic Artists Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines, 10th Edition)
posted
In my post I too was talking about the LOGO only. The price for painting planes, or trucks or whatever would depend on volume and size as well as the travel component.
A while back there was a lawsuit with Yahoo. The fellow who did the yodelling for them did it as a contract. Later when Yahoo was successful beyond everybody's wildest dreams he sued them for more money... not at all fair in my book.
In my case the logo design is for a START UP airline. One or two planes to start. I hope thye are successful and get bigger, but that isn't the issue.
The start up airline has a very high cost of capitalization, no doubt much higher than a start up trucking company... but does that make the LOGO DESIGN worth a whole bunch more???
In this particular case the design I would be involved in would involve much more than just a logo. It involves 'branding' and all that goes into establishing that. But the same could be said for a start-up trucking company with only a few trucks.
I do the same job every time I design a little theme park... designing a marketing strategy based around a theme. The actual building of the course is a separate issue and cost. I was thinking of pricing the airline job with a similar price structure.
It's a complex issue to be sure... and I'd love to hear more opinions and reasons for the same.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
In the Ethical Guidlines book, logo and branding design is based on the size of the company. The bigger the company, the more responsibility, the more exposure, and the more work the designer has to do to insure a good design. It is not unheard of to get 50-100k for such design, and implementaion of the branding design. Signage and potential production business is a side issue, and most likely not ethical for a branding designer to actually do the production of the work, especially if they discount the design in order to get the production. Of course this is only if you belong to an organization like AIGA, GAG, or any other organization where thier bylaws require it by the designer to follow. Another thing is working on spec. or designing prior to a contract, to get a job. Most sign companies do this, but it is not fair, because design is time, time is money, and designers should get paid for thier time. When you start pi**ing with the big boys thier are ethical guidlines to follow, and a process to insure a quality product and good result. It hold the same for a trucking company of 30 trucks or a sizable one man operation, but at a smaller scale. At least that is my observation.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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'BRANDING' for a large company is a much larger job than designing a little logo for a mom & pop operation. As such it deserves a much larger fee.
For a large company the process isn't simple. For starters, a large company is by it's very nature a 'COMMITTEE' and that alone makes the process much more complicated. The design process will involve a series of presentations with different options. Once preliminary selections are made it will proceed to focus groups for reactions and input.
Once that large and cumbersome process is finished with the real work begins... with a design policy the next document to be worked through.
A DESIGN MANUAL is the order of the day covering every concievable use of the logo carfully designed, planned and documented.
In the case of UPS for instance every use of the logo was undoubtably spec'ed from each type of truck and the palcement of the logos, to the stationary, business cards, signage in every application, the placement of the logo on every type of aircraft and type of equipment they own and operate. It also specs the use of the logo in advertising and packaging, TV spots, even how the radio ads sound.
The manual can be inches thick. (I've seen them) And hundreds of copies must be printed up and distributed.
Trademarking is without a doubt part of the process and not a cheap aspect either.
And all this must be scheduled to come off as a positive exercise for the consumer and the company involved.
No wonder the process of a new logo and branding can cost $50-100,000 or more. Implementing the entire change can add many hundreds of thousands more to the cost for a large company.
All this is easily understandable... and not exactly the question at hand...
I think the example I presented will ultimately involve some fraction of this work. And the fee will represent the same fraction in it's ultimate cost.
I am selling ideas... valuable ideas which can help the company to survive the startup and thrive. The ideas better be good... and worth their substancial fee.
It's a lot of responsibility... no less that of a small company... just on a much larger scale.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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The discussion has digressed down two different paths. But these paths serve to illustrate the two sides of this idea of perceived value.
One path is the design. If the design requires a higher level of experience, talent, whatever .... and a higher set of standards to meet, then the rules of pv become much more like licensing and selling advertising.
The other path is fulfillment .... turning the need or idea into a reality. If it's apples and apples .... same amount of layout, setup, design or whatever you want to call the time, and the same amount of dollars to provide the materials, and the same amount of time to make the sign .... then, IMHO, the selling price should be the same.
In this second example, I would temper this by adding that there are lots of variable factors involved as well. Yesterday, I added in two hours worth of time to a quote for lack of organization on the part of the client and another $100 because he wanted it sooner than was efficient to deliver it. He then wanted to negotiate the price down simply because he wanted a deal, probably something he learned it from a parent. I offered him a scaled down version at which he balked and left. An hour later he returned, signed the work order, paid a deposit and will have what he wants in time to look good at a job that's important to him.
The perceived value here was he knew we could do what he wanted and could meet his deadline. The value he perceives is the rewards and ego strokes he will get. The value I perceived was the interruption of workflow and the extra sales time. He perceives the advertising value which is why he is willing to buy it in the first place. That makes it easier for me to sell him my services .... but it isn't a reason to charge him differently.
In the final analysis, most of the signs we produce are products. All shapes, sizes and qualities, but products nonetheless. The price at which one sells a product is based on a mix of the cost to make it, market conditions, competition and perceived value. But the product itself becomes priced uniformly and is purchased by those who perceive that they need it, want it and can afford it. To attempt to apply a different pricing yardstick to how buyers will utilize our products makes no more sense to me than if Cam were to ask a questionaire be filled out to buy a sign bracket for him to evaluate its use before he decided what to charge me for it.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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I'm with you on this one Fred. Apples are apples and the price should be the same.
If I do a logo for two different companies, the price is the same for each customer.
If I see the job is going to be more complex I add that in. If the job is as complex as what I described above then it will be a moving target with the final price reflected by the amount of work involved.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Man, I would love to see the same client walk into Fred's shop and into Cam's shop, with the same list of needs - and compare what each managed to sell them, what the ultimate selling price was, and who actually made more 'pre hour' after all was said and done.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe, I'm not sure how to read your post as to your viewpoint. This much I can say about my business:
It is very centered around vinyl graphics. We are not painters or specialists in high end signage. Our specialty is to take vinyl graphics to the highest level we can attain.
We enjoy an exceptional repeat customer percentage and make a good living while rarely leaving our premises. We do very few installs and have no yellow page advertising. Our business has shifted from a strictly wholesale to the trade job shop to a retail store in an Office Depot plaza.
As such, beyond repeat customers, our walkin trade is where our primary business comes from. We continue to service other sign shops with products and services beyond their capabilities and they still represent a sizeable part of our business. Our conversion rate of walkins to buyers is better than acceptable. On numerous occasions we have actually had clients pay us to remove the work of others and provide our own.
In short, my business is doing just fine.
But I doubt that Cam's business is very much like mine at all so the marketing approach along with the types of products and services provided would surely be quite different. His approach is designed to work with his own operation and clients. Comparing here wouldn't just not be apples to apples .... it would be more like oranges to automobiles. There is more that is different than the same.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dave, this is a really, really, really good posting. I've written down the name and date of it, so that if it doesn't keep getting "bumped", I can go back to it and ponder it time and again.
I can't remember all that's been said, so please forgive if I get redundant. I had a few questions/ideas. It seems as though most of the discussion has been from our perspective, but what about their perspective? That is, there's a good chance they already know what a good identity package goes for, so they're "looking around". Could this be viewed from a "supply and demand perspective"? That is, there are only so many qualified designers around, so that would have a bearing on the price, apart from t&m.
There is a form of ad-hominem reasoning whereby one takes the other person's point and runs it out to it's conclusion. You've been doing a superb job of this, so along those lines, I wonder what would happen if XYZ company had an el-barfo identity. What would the loss be? Could this have a bearing on the "value"?
Of course, I can talk big stuff, but the BIG R is ever present,(Reality). This posting is so timely for me. On a much smaller scale though. A local merchant had a sign blow down, and wanted to know if I could install it. I said yes, my ladder truck isn't up to snuff, so I'd have to rent a man-lift. The sign's probably 20' up, not too tough of a job. The equpment rental would be $65 for 4 hr. My rate here in Appalachia is $35 per, maybe $40 on that kind of work. So $145 for a couple hours work? It just didn't "feel" right. So I said $180, and havn't heard back from the guy. (He's busy, so maybe not a lost job after all.)
Like I said, this is worth pondering for a long time. Thank you. Jim D.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I still say "it's worth what you can get" but you won't know what you can get if you don't lose a few finding out what you can't get. Sometimes you may overbid your competition on work the buyer never got a second bid on, so you could do real well. Other times you may get underbid by someone still learning the ropes, making the mistake of giving work away.
Often I'm busy enough that my day to day concerns are more about getting through the workload then about how I'll pay my bills. At times like that I would look at a job like yours James, & think how much would I be willing to pay someone else to get out of doing that, so I can do better, funner, or more profitable work. I think the answer around here would always be over $200, so I would price it somewhat above that.
posted
After reading a few more posts on this, it shows what different levels we are in this business, I started in a one man specialty shop, who writes for a sign magazine, that is one perspective, but now that I am where I'm at, I see things slightly different, NOT BETTER! just different. I think real design is not a percieved value or product, it has worth due to experience, can most sign shops cross-over into selling design, some are. But most sign guys must change thier perspective, grow in the business, but take the responsibilty that comes with it too. I understand Freds perspective, after working for a vinyl signshop. But when a vinyl signshop starts designing logos, then thier "product" changes. Graphic designers get paid a lot of money for it, sign people should too. Dan getting into "Branding" when he is a specialty designer, is risky, I know he has the talent to do it, but it can change his business, for the good and the bad. Obviously he is a great business man, and he knows what he is doing but, signshops can take a look at expanding thier services to design cautiously, and responsibly so there is no "perception" of value, but that the client will gladly pay what it's "worth" for the work you do and the experience you have.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Back many years ago (25 or so) when I was just starting in this business I was offered the chance to do some design work for a multinational company's annual report. The previous job the company had given me had been the ticket to boost me to quit my day job and run full time self employed.
They wanted a simple graphic that would tie the entire report together... run through the entire book from page to page.
They were a forestry company. The idea we came up with was called 'the profile of the forest' It was a single thin line which outlined a forest. I added the suggestion of including outlines of their equipment and men working in the forest. The top folks in their big shiney offices were excited... the idea was perfect! They asked me for a quote...
I figured I could do the job in a couple of days tops... and bid the heady sum of $1500 A whole lot of money in 1980. They said they would get back to me.
I heard later they had given the job to an advertising studio and design house... for $10,000. I got ahold of a copy of the report later on and had a chat with the same folks I had originally discussed the job with. The final job wasn't better than what I might have done, and it used my ideas. The design firm got the job because 'they had the experience' and they were afraid I had underquoted and wouldn't be able to do the job for what I said.
Percieved value is important, and with it goes the appropriate price. Major corporations aren't just buying a piece of art... they are trying to buy success and expect to pay hansomely for it. If an idea works, it is worth a fortune to them!
I've seen this same phenomemon a few times since... but needless to say I wasn't the low bidder who got excluded. Lesson learned.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow, great story Dan. I want more $1,500 jobs that sell for $10,000. Which is why this topic fascinates me. I'm a T&M pricer, and I think I already charge a lot for my work - damn things have gotten expensive - but I seem to earn every penny. When the job's finished it always ends up being a LOT of work and expense. Could I have done better? So when somebody says I'm leaving money on the table I pay attention.
I look forward to grabbing Cam's ear at the upcoming Mass Mayhem and being enlightened further.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let's compare the same type of sign not trucks to parking signs. For instance you price a job time materials profit etc. for 5k, but you percieve the value to be 7k. Someone else gets the job (similarly done) for 6k. So now you get no money instead of less money. I understand the concept but how do you determine when to do it and how much to charge? I can see this working more for higher end and more unique items than cheaper normal ones.
-------------------- Eric PA Posts: 149 | From: Intercourse, PA | Registered: Jun 2004
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Now I know there is a Sign Writers' "GOD"... this post has been the most interesting thing in God, knows how long. Pure beauty and well done by all
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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). The perceived value is based on its value as advertising, and pricing is adjusted accordingly. 
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oh oh. the plot thickens. What happens when they get a few beers in them on the 16th hole and........................![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
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Anyhow, you get the idea. Not 747's compared to KW's. just the logo. period. 
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