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First of all please chime in with your methods, as I too am still learning. I use a Tormek, which is probably considered the Cadillac of sharpening devices at least by considering the cost,and probably the most versitile,,,,, but,,, it leaves a hollow grind in a carving chisel (a concave grind which causes a chisel to not want to resurface correctly in a cut). I have learned to turn the chisel somewhere between 50 and 70 degrees on the stone, that allows a side grind and almost eliminates the hollow grinds. I use the front depth bar supplied on the Tormek, and use it to roll the chisels on. With just a little practice you will catch on and without useing any of the jigs. ..... You can then make a few swipes across a flat stone/stones and then go back to the Tormek for honing. Typically I only sharpen about every two carving jobs at the most, and that just with the flat fine stones. The hone used intermittently does the rest, until it becomes too rounded.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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As far as the Cadillac goes, I guess I have the cheapest available. Been carving for quite some time, both signs and many other things. The method I use is just a hard felt wheel on a grinding wheel motor with jewelers rouge. Every time the chisel slows down a little, I just polish it and we are back in business. Grinding on a stone wheel side only once in a long while. At this rate, my chisels will out live me and many others.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Steve, I have edited my post. I guess it must have sounded like I use the grinder on the chisels all the time. I Just got a new set of chisels that were not even close to shape, and that is what I am referring to. A set of hand stone would take hours per chisel to get ready initially. Some including flexcut, and pfiel both come with a razor edge, but many don't.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jack, I'm having a hard time visualizing your method . Are you grinding a 50* angle on the tool or are you holding the tool at 50* to the wheel? Instead of in line whith the wheel? If it's the latter, what is your angle of grind for the tools bevel? And where the hell is that little degree key on this keyboard Technology.....Sheesh! I certainly agree that a hollw ground edge is a problem. When I teach sharpening, I explain that it's about more than a sharp edge. Sharpening a toll also means shaping it. There are three things to consider when shaping the tool. First you must thin down the steel to create a cutting edge. This is done by grinding a bevel at the end of it. Second, the bevel serves to guide the cutting edge...a hollow grind will direct the edge downward, making it difficult to control (as you describe, Jack). If the bevel is rounded, it directs the edge into a scooping action (as well as other problems....see next ). Logicly a flat bevel is the way to go. Thirdly, the bevel determines the angle at which the tool is held to the work. Think about it, the handle does not follow the edge....it moves above it....therefore, the shorter the bevel (30* is shorter than 15*)the higher the handle. Like pushing a car out of a ditch, I want to get low and push from the trunk .....not the roof . Logicly then, it is desireable to have as low an angle as is feasable. The problem with a belly shaped bevel is it elevates the handle to an uncomfortable height AND the bevel is useless as a platform to guide the edge. Sharpening is NOT an art.....it's simple physics and mechanics. Now for the hard part......all of us in our lives face situations where we have little expertise but must solve a problem.....we work hard at it and find a way to make it work, and are justfyingly proud......sometimes we even spend a LOT of money on a solution. Then I guy like me comes along and suggests that there is another (I hate too say this , better way). Our pride gets hurt and we go away mad....or we open up and consider a different way....I've had experiences with both. Likewise, I must be open to a better way.....and I am. If you have one, please frame your reasons why it's better using all three of the points that were discussed above....creating the edge, guiding the edge and angle of work. If I haven't ticked too many people off....I'll be happy to discuss the PROCESS of shaping carving tools.
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joe, I spent all day yesterday getting the bugs worked out of my Delta Sharpening System and finally made some progress getting my tools in shape.
I've spent the last year trying to get my chisels and gouges ground and sharpened using so many different techniques, that I was ready to give up. Joe's system solves every problem I have encountered over that last year. It grinds a flat consistant bevel very easily. Once the bevel is ground, then is just a matter of going through the steps of honing it with a series of stones to the buffing wheel and then final honing on a leather strop.
Thanks for the post......that picture is the set up as it is sold. Can you post a pic with the modifications that you made? Boy, this post comes at a bad time for me......Three jobs to get out, stuff to make for Atlantic City......leaving Thurs morning....getting back late Sun.....Sheesh
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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I guess I was not very clear in what I posted. I use the same methods as Joe explained with a wheel that you use a rounded surface as opposed to the flat side of the wheel like the Delta that Terry shows. Yes the Delta is fairly ideal for carving chisels, and is the way to go unless you are completely set up in another direction. I was trying to explain how to avoid a hollow grind with the round part of the stone, in which most use. If I were confined to carving only I would certainly consider that tool or one very similar. Joe, I was trying to describe the method holding the handle well out to the right or left when approaching the stone. This virtually eliminates the problem, at least on a large stone like the Tormek. It certainly gets it down to a level for a fine stone to work. It is certainly not the ideal setup, but what most people own. Unfortunately the Delta is very limited for my lathe chisels, so I had to make a decision. Joe, do you use a flat turning stone or the side of a stone to get it started? I didn't pick up on that.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jack, I understand what your doing now....wow, that takes a real steady hand. You are right about the limitations of the Delta system as a universal sharpening system....but it's relativly cheap and the combination of the flat platform tool rest, flat wheel and the use of an easily made jig to keep the tool square...it takes a lot of the "hand/art" out of the process and gives the beginners half a chance. (me too! )
Before I got the Delta in 95, I used a lapidary wheel the size of the Tormek. It ran dry so I had to keep quenching the tool, being carefull not to burn it.....the wet wheel is a blessing! Then I would hone most of the hollow grind out with a hard arkansas stone. Time consuming and certainly not perfect....when I first saw the Delta at about $200 I waited for it to come down to $185....now you can by a reconditioned one for $139....new$159.
I don't know if this explains or answers your question on using a "round" stone or not....but when I have to regrind someone elses tools ...(Don't anyone even think of asking ) and have to change the angle (like from 25* to 15*)...I use a course abrasive on my lapadary wheel to get me close....then jump to the Delta. I'm gradually regrinding 30 gouges for the Atlantic city workshop....the previous instructor (who shall remain nameless) ground them at 25*....thats a tough angle for rookies!
Is anyone interested in the "process" for getting a sharp, durable easy to use tool? Once we get past the grinding (however we do it) there is still important work to be done.
I did a two part series on sharpening for Sign Biz Mag in the July and Aug issus in '01. Lots of pics etc., I'm tweeking the words a little and Jon Butterworth has offered to post em in the tips and tricks section. If you can't wait and can't get the mag.....send me a S.A.S.E with postage and i'll send you a B&W copy (it's better in color)....I think Terry is using the B&W copy.
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joe, Try this (on PCs): hold ALT and type 0186 to get º degree hold ALT and type 0178 to get ² squared hold ALT and type 0179 to get ³ cubed
I got these from the 'insert symbol' function in Microsoft Word. Some work here and some don't.
EDIT: It only works if you use the number pad on the right, not with the numbers across the top of the keyboard. Don't forget to hold down that ALT key while you type the numbers!
[ September 07, 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: David McDonald ]
-------------------- David McDonald Palm Harbor Florida USA
posted
Hey Joe, I could read all these posts and learn something but I have decided to wait until I see you in a few days in Atlantic City. By the way, where are you staying?
[ December 02, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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They are puttin me up at the Trump Plaza..... I'm looking foward to meeting you!
After hours is some business and getting together with old friends.....I hope you are staying the 3 days. The Bull Pen is relaxed and it should give us some time to get to know each other....a bit
Thurs. is a quick 4 hours....Fri. I'm there for a couple of hours before my workshop...Sat., I'm Bull Pen bound! Sat. nite is a reception for us by USSC......man, they treat us good!
A couple of tips.....bring a pencil to the workshop and a 2" booster seat , seriously, the chair height in relation to the table height is about 2" off....you will be much more comfortable if you have a booster of 2".....solid foam, pillows, whatever.....
Have you done any carving before? If you have tools, bring them, we can talk about them and maybe I can suggest what tools you might want to add. Sharpening is really not one of the topics that I go into any depth with....but I do Skim over it. I'll have copies of my article, make sure you get one. Also, get a seat in the front row....30% of the tools are sharpened to my specks......they will start in the front row...during the workshop, I will ask you to pass them back so that everyone will have a chance to compare the two sharpening systems.....or maybe you want to be in the last row.....the real sculptural stuff is in the last hours.....tough choices.....but only you get to decide ahead of time , Bullboard Advantage!!!! heheheheh
See Ya There!!!
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Place cursor after number...click "insert" click "symbol" select symbol, double click symbol……..50° vulla!
This works if you create your posts in MS Word……..which is what I do……then I just cut & paste into the bulletin board.
I like creating my posts this way. It’s a better way, because MS Word has far greater editing capabilities then the board itself………..and that’s how you keep your posts SHARP.
[ December 14, 2002, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: John Martin Robson ]
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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Some of the things that I think got missed before this thread 'died' the first time...
I'd like to see Terry and Joe's set up on the sharpening system.
How much do one of them suckers set ya back?
I use jeweler's rouge and a buffing wheel, too....but there's different jewelers rouges, red, brown, white, etc...which is the best?
I am totally lost when it comes to sharpening, shaping veiners and gouges. Since these have alot more usefullness (at least for me) than straight chisels, which are a piece of cake to sharpen...any tips on sharpening those will definitely be tried here.
posted
Joe will be happy to see this post coming back to life!
I'm kinda busy this weekend and don't have my digital camera at home. If you can wait till Monday, I'll post better pictures of my machine. It has changed a little since Joe bought his and I had to make some alterations.
Joe will be the better one to write the specifics and I'd be happy to provide the pictures. I just don't have the time to do it this weekend.
Maybe we can start a fresh post on this topic when we're ready to go with it.
posted
Thanks Terry! Yeah, a fresh post thread won't hurt.
I've always seen carving as drawing shadows and shapes with chisels, rasps, sandpaper, etc..instead of pencil on paper. It's the sharpening that's always been the more difficult to master for me. It's great to see some of you guys pool your experience on a subject like this.
Bottom line, that's what this site was intended to do!
posted
Don, Thanks for bringing my post out of the cemetery. Below is an example of what I believe is the simple mechanics of a sharpened chisel, and the approx. angle of the bevel that I use. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am fairly new to sharpening myself. A. A chisel that is properly shaped and sharpened B. A chisel that has a hollow grind that need to go to a flat stone to flatten and then honed out to a polished edge finish. (What the beginning post was explaining to avoid) C. A chisel that has been over-honed, and polished too many times without taking back to a shaping and finishing flat stone. I myself don't believe that you can simply use polish and felt wheel without causing this. Actually for a short while the last diagram works slightly better until it gets too rounded because it will help return the cutting edge towards the surface thus eliminating tear outs. As it gets more rounded it gets hard to insert into the wood. Am I wrong?
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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this is an interesting post. (since I am hoping to get some chisels from Santa) hehehe
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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OK, I think Jack is on the right track . Jack, if you invert your illustrations and put the bevel in position as if at work folkes might get a better picture of the bevel guiding the edge....this will make our observations easier to understand. Can you do that? All I can do from this end is type .
The only correction I would make to your illustrations is that with a lot of buffing, the heal of the bevel and the edge will both be rounded...not just the edge...hence a continious curve or belly. I can't measure your angle but its looks close to 15*. All 29 people in my AC workshop wanted the 15*......zero wanted 25*....yet all tools were VERY sharp!
By the way, the 15* comes from the original grind on the swiss tools....designed by the Brenz (sp) School of Woodcarving.....a very old, famous, traditional school. However.....the problem with the 15* is that the steel is SO thin, it will break down(literally) with any prying or scraping action. To solve this problem and ensure durability and delay the belly problem.....a micro bevel must be formed. Cheryl, you will be a very happy carver for a long time if you do this when you get your tools. By the way, what brand are you getting?
A micro bevel is a secondary bevel that is formed on the BACK of the primary bevel. If honed at aprox. 15*, you will have 30* at the edge which is VERY durable. This bevel needs only to be 1/64" wide....just visable...ergo "micro". The other advantage is that when you make chips....the wood gets imediate clearence off the back of the tool, which reduces friction which allows you to get more work done with less effort , at my age thats important.
Now, when the occasion arises and you need to strop your tool (or buff) do it on the micro bevel....keeping your primary bevel flat. Likewise, when you eventually need to re-hone the tool....do it on the micro bevel! Again, it keeps your main bevel flat! Jack, if you do this, you are going to spend a lot more time carving and a lot less grinding!
Don, you are right....Rouge is the name for a catagory of polishing abraisives. As far as I know....only the yellow and white are hard enough to affect steel. The others are for softer metals. They Delta Sharpening Center can be purchased reconditioned for about $139.....new $159. By the way...I don't have stock in, or represent either company.....
There is a lot more to this topic if I haven't bored everyone to death.....I stopped posting last time because it seemed like everyone lost interest
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sorry to hear of your father-inlaw. I wish you solace at this time.
As for your claim that the design is poor on the Stubai line, I disagree. No more than any other which is why I mentioned the occasional need to modify.
But modification is one person's choice over another. Everyone has their own method of sharpening and carving.
and lastly, your comment on the photo. That was in fact a straight wood chisel modified to perform a specific function that I wanted. You might find another way to do it or achieve the same cut but I chose this and I have returned to it often. Why do mfg's not have it? For the same reason that the v-tool is an American started method. I was never allowed to use the v-tool in class with Ludwig because he showed all forms of that cut with straights. Again, all in the person using the tool.
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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could you share with me and all other here were you might find one of these Delta machines..they are wet stones right?..also with the buffing wheel. i have tried to find one to no luck..a website or catologe would help.
thanks in advance..
chris
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
Here's one link. Just do a Google search for Delta Sharpening Center.
Overall, I do believe a system like this to be the best way to sharpen your carving tools. I've seen people raving about their expensive Tormek grinders, but you can't argue the fact that it creates a hollow grind. The Delta system gives you a perfectly flat bevel.
I ordered mine through Home Depot. I'm not completely satisfied with mine, however.
The toolrest doesn't seem to be square with the wheel (or the other way around, not sure). You can use the dressing stone to square things up but, as soon as you move the tool rest to adjust it, you loose your "spot".
The stone seems very soft. From trying to square it up so many times, I need a new one already and I've only used the thing for 6-8 tools.
I've also had to make some modifications. I'll try to take a picture of it and post it in the next day or two. Basically, the way the new units are made, the tool rest can't be lowered enough to grind the correct angle. I had to cut a piece of it off to allow it to be lowered to where it needs to be.
I don't know if the problem with the wheel is just that I got a bad one. Since I need to get a new wheel, I guess I will find out then and will let everyone know. It won't however be in the near future.
One catalog that I have (I've seen it in several others)is Tool Crib www.toolcrib.amazon.com It's product #23-715....I just checked the site and it sells for $159.99. I remove the small grinding wheel and install a 1"x4" sewn muslin buffing wheel and use yellow rouge. Send me a sase and I'll send you a copy of the instructions.
The newer machines are a little different than the one I own and some minor surgery is needed but I'm told it's obvious and a sawzall will do it. If you email Terry Whynott, I'm sure he'll be glad to help
It's wonderfull to hear from you again hope everything is going well!
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joe, thanks for the lead..i will sase you about the directions.good to see you are speading the good word about these tools....when is the book coming out?
Terry, I can't wait to see some of your pictures on your wheel. ill be in touch when i can catch a minute.
chris
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
I prefer a visible grinding wheel. It is a disc that mounts in the drill press and has slits in it allowing the blade to come up under the disc and I can see the contact point and tell what I'm doing. I follow this with a buff on a cotton wheel with green compound.
Something else, is that we find better carving with a steeper (narrower) angle for redwood than for oak and hardwoods.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Don, while traveling through Canada, they introduced me to a green rouge for buffing and it really is much better than the ones I have. Sorry, but I can't tell you its name, still trying to find a supplier myself.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Here is a picture of the unit as it is shipped. It's scanned from the manual and doesn't show the splash guard that surounds the stone. This is a wet grinder, I wouldn't recommend using it without the splash guard.
Here is a picture of my actual unit after the modifications. I'm using a felt buffing wheel, just because I already had it. Joe C. uses a muslin buffing wheel.
This is a close-up of the unit after taking the saw to it.
I had to add a piece of PVC to fill a gap in the splash guard. Don't know why, but they don't make it fit all the way around the stone. I'm still cleaning up little mud splashes on the wall!
And this is the dressing stone that is shipped to dress the other grinding wheel. Joe found that it happens to just fit into the planer blade holder. Just. When the stone gets worn down, you can use this to true the stone back to a flat surface.
I really struggled with getting my tools sharp and this really was the answer I'd been looking for. I hope it will help someone else out the same way.
This of course it only the first step in sharpening your tools. This machine will accurately grind the desired bevel. After that is is up to you to follow through with finer grit stones down to the leather strop. I'd recommend taking Joe up on his offer and send a SASE to him for the detailed instructions. Maybe one day we can get it get it typed in and uploaded to the Tips and Tricks section.
If anyone has any questions, please feel free to e-mail me. I'd be happy to help any way I can.
[ September 09, 2003, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Terry Whynott ]
Those are great shots....now I'm clear on the "improvements" they have made since I purchased mine in '95. There is one thing I do differently on dressing the wheel....and maybe this is the reason for your problem keeping the wheel consistantly trued. Instead or inserting the stone parallel to the holder,(that has got to be a bugger;)) I insert it at a right angle so that the end of the dressing stone does the work. You have to slide the jig back and forth on the tool rest to true the wheel and that should insure that it is parallel to the tool rest. I'm pretty sure that will solve your problem.
I know that Francis Lestingi PHD, purchased a sharpening center right after FKAB so I emailed him to see if he was having the excessive wear that you described....His reply "I have used it quite a bit already and have trued it up twice. But it works great." I also know that he has a huge chest of swiss tools...so he has probably done more than 8. LOL Terry, change your dressing method and you my still get a lot of mileage from your existing stone .
I also have a theory on why the stone warps...I had the same problem as you when I first used mine. But I don't have it any more....my theory...when you get it first you spend a lot of time sharpening and dressing the wheel with the water running....the wheel absorbs the water and warps. Once you have properly ground and then honed the tools it's a very long time before they have to be re-ground. Re-grinding only takes a few minutes so there is less water absorbson and no warping.
Terry, Thanks for taking the time to post the pics. It was a grest help! (I love that little guy clapping his hands! lol) I'll make sure to include the dressing process in my future sharpening presentations.
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Just a note to woodcarvers in general....Dusty Yaxley will be showing how he takes care of his chisels at a meet to be held in Gainesville, Fl on Oct 18,2003. He will also be carving and offering tips he has learned over the years. More info on the meet in Future Live Meets and on the BB.
Thanks
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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![[Frown]](frown.gif)
. Are you grinding a 50* angle on the tool or are you holding the tool at 50* to the wheel? Instead of in line whith the wheel?![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Technology.....Sheesh!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
). Logicly a flat bevel is the way to go.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.....not the roof 
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/clap.gif)
(I love that little guy clapping his hands! lol) I'll make sure to include the dressing process in my future sharpening presentations.
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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