Guy has a fulltime job, but his dream is to someday run his own sign business. He recently invested in a CNC Router and is in the process of designing a logo for his new business. When he passed his preliminary design around on chat one night, I asked him if he was open for suggestion.
After more discussion, Guy voluntered to allow us to take his current design "back to the drawing board" and redesign it.

Mike Stevens had a giant influence on many of us here in Letterville. Through his workshops, videos, and most of all his book "Mastering Layout", Mike left us what many consider the best book on sign layout ever produced. If you are serious about layout, you need to get this book.

It's important that we explain in detail why each design makeover is in fact better. Is there more negative space? Is your typeface choice more appropriate? Why? We need to know every step of the design process that you employed. At the end of the day, the goal is to learn some design basics that we can use to troubleshoot all our layouts.

Are you ready? I'll let Guy tell you about his business and the thought process that led to his present design.

quote:

---

The first design was a saw blade with the main text as a label on the blade. A saw blade was selected as the service that I provide is cutting wood, plastic, and foam and I couldn't see a way of incorporating a router bit into the design. This was discarded as it was impossible to get the text a reasonable size without creating a huge empty space on the blade. Both straight lines and wrapping the text around the inside of the circle was tried but the result sucked either way. Also the circular design would not fit an a business card. Scrapped.

Second design used the saw blade element from the first, but with only the S inside. The font for the "S" was selected so that its shape would closely match the shape of the saw blade. I have also toyed with the idea if making the saw blade itself the "S".

The rest of the text was arranged to represent a shower of sawdust coming from the blade. The font for "awdust" was selected because it was round and sorta soft like sawdust. The first version of this had the text tapering in size so that the letters became bigger as they moved away from the blade. The "& NOISE" was a sharp angular font(Amplifier) and stretched to fit the area beneath "SAWDUST".

This design was reviewed by a Resident of this esteemed community who told me that the tapering letters and the sharp font weren't working. So the design was redone leaving the letters at a constant height and a new font selected for "& Noise".

This is a better design than the first, as it will fit on a business card with room for a name and contact details. This is the design submitted for the recommendations and constructive criticisms of yourself and the Letterville community at large.

I haven't got a clue as to colours, but was thinking of a wood coloured background as a full size version will be built out of wood. Here's my existing design.

---

That is freaking bad! I love it.

I dig Joe's too though.

Both very nice.

-shane
 

Also as this is a learning excercise (for me anyway) a short description of how you came up with your version of the design would be appreciated.

I appreciate that the best way to befuddle a person with a great skill in any endevor is to ask them "How do U do that?", but being at the short end of the learning curve any information is greatly welcomed. Thanks

I'll be ordering a copy of "Mastering Layout" in the morning.

PS. Joe that Letraset University "&" (or near copy) is a brilliant touch, and Glenn I wish my artistic skills were only as meager as yours.
 

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

My quick fun take on this ...

I chose my take because I find a certain elegance in the "noise" of the saw
----------------
oops ... just noticed that "division of" tag line
I was thinking it was an address for a business card (while I was offline doing layout)

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Matyjakowski ]

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]

The word 'sawdust' was drawn then scanned and outlined. I should have made the lines thinner. Also I can't figure out how to make my designs true colors show. In signlab they are forest green and burgundy. Here they show up RED!???

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

First off, I think that this is a cool idea. It is interesting to see the different solutions to the design question.

This is my concept for the logo. I realize that Guy tried to work the design into a circular thing and was not satisified with the result.

I think that circular designs work well in a lot of situations. They can prove to be difficult to execute well but when they do, oh boy!

This is the black and white version of the design.

This is the full color bells and whistles version.

It sure was fun playing with this one. I would have had it done sooner but I had some real work I had to do. Dang, it sure does bite when reality won't let you have some fun...

Thanks for letting me share. You all have a great one!
 

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Stevo Chartrand ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Shortreed:
Those of us who use Letterville Chat know him as Supertigre. His real name is Guy Hilliard and his home is Brampton, Ontario...just outside of Toronto.

Guy has a fulltime job, but his dream is to someday run his own sign business. He recently invested in a CNC Router and is in the process of designing a logo for his new business. When he passed his preliminary design around on chat one night, I asked him if he was open for suggestion.
After more discussion, Guy voluntered to allow us to take his current design "back to the drawing board" and redesign it.

Mike Stevens had a giant influence on many of us here in Letterville. Through his workshops, videos, and most of all his book "Mastering Layout", Mike left us what many consider the best book on sign layout ever produced. If you are serious about layout, you need to get this book.

It's important that we explain in detail why each design makeover is in fact better. Is there more negative space? Is your typeface choice more appropriate? Why? We need to know every step of the design process that you employed. At the end of the day, the goal is to learn some design basics that we can use to troubleshoot all our layouts.

Are you ready? I'll let Guy tell you about his business and the thought process that led to his present design.

---

Everyone seems to be using the saw idea. Seeing there is a CNC router involved, some sort of graphic based on the machine or even a stylized bit could be employed.

We can all agree that there are some good looking graphics posted here, but why do they look good? What design principle is present in virtually every design? While everyone thinks about it, I'll try and prepare a graphic that demonstrates Mike Stevens' Natural Layout Theory.
 

It would need a little tweeking though

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Talisman ]

I picked a font that had a playful nature about it, and downplayed the secondary copy which is there for information purposes but doesn't warrant competing with the main message.

Janette

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

I thought I read the post right the 1st time but my rendering looks like what might have been rejected earlier (understood that part after I
already did this design). I think it looks ok even though I didn't convert it to wood-look background.

I tried to keep as much of what the customer wanted in the original design. I used lettering styles which would contrast but not conflict for attention, as it's our job to lead the viewer through the composition in an orderly fashion & not get stuck trying to figure out what it says.

I wanted the "awdust" letters to appear lightweight & scattered as they might be after being cut by a saw. I didn't really care for the font I chose but didn't have another which worked as well.

I chose a heavier style for "noise" for emphasis on such. I figured noisy lettering should be bold. I thought of putting the ear protection on the ampersand, but decided the "O" looked better. By the way, the ampersand is from Jack Wills' "Pure Gold" cd (where there was a lot to choose from). The board acts as a divider which allows more area to be used instead of negative space. I kept the "S" on the blade just ecause. And the minor copy at bottom was kept small as not to compete with the main message.

I know. I thought about it also. How does the sawblade represent Sawdust & Noise which runs a cnc? But whatever. This is just a possible design to analyze.

Here's a tip for deciding optimal viewing distances for sign visibility. Gather up the designs of your choice. Import them into a page of whatever program you use for designing. Try & keep the size ratios equal. You might be able to put a couple on one page & a couple more on another, & so on until you have a printout of each. Now attach them to a wall preferably one where you can view from say 8' to 20 or more. This is only an option, but if you say that
1" = 1', then your ratio is 1:12. Now back up (don't trip over anything)& measure distance away from artwork & write down viewing distances for each (in feet or metric equivalent), as they wont all be the same. Now multiply that distance times the ratio factor & that will give you the distance from which sign is readable (provided that there are no obstructions in viewing path). That's the easy way. I had a customer who wanted me to make a full-size example so they could decide if what I proposed to do was big enough. I was able to convince them by the distance ratio method that it indeed was.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

The script isn't exactly how I would do it, but it gives the feeling I was after without going to all the work.

Since Steve wanted us to talk a bit about them, here's what I was thinking. Basically, I wanted a big bold hit with the company name. I always try to pay attention to the positive and negative space in the lettering, to create a nice rythym. I settled on a upper/lower case serif letterstyle because I thought it would be easier to identify each individual letter - which I guess is a kind of poor way of saying I thought these words would be more legible in upper/lowercase.

As I was messing around with the positive and negative space, I decided to stagger the word "noise" to create a bit of interest and disharmony in the design because I thought it was appropriate for that particular word.

I was toying with different ovals and panels under the ampersand and then I thought of this shape. I often use these types of pretty simplified, subtle type of graphics just to introduce a feeling to the design. Is it a router bit? A stylized saw? Who knows, but the feeling is there. (I think) I don't like designing a layout for a tire shop and automatically sticking a tire on the sign. (sometimes do, though)

In this case, I think even a perfectly rendered graphic of a CNC router or even just the CNC router bit would leave a lot of people confused as to what it was, so I thought a secondary line of copy would spell out what type of business it is. I don't like adding copy to a design, but I thought it was better off this way.

As for the "A division of.." copy - nobody cares, or would remember the numbers, so this is really insignificant copy compared to the rest of it, and I treated it as such.

I think there are a lot of possibilities for colour choices and maybe a few effects too.

I enjoyed seeing everyone else's designs. Let's see some more!
 

So here is another idea I had using a router type bit...

This is the black/white/grayscale version...

This is the full color bells and whistles version...

I am really impressed with the designs that are being posted. Why is it more fun to work on this free stuff?!? No fair... We should all get paid...
Pretzels for everyone!

Have a great one!

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

I like it a lot. I like Bruce's second version too. They both got away from the saw blade idea!!

Good work everyone!
 

I drew "Mr. ****'t-off beaver" first, and then scanned him into the computer.
The rest of the design was created in Corel Draw.

It's pretty cool to see all the variations on the design.
 

Great design. I like the way you took the design "out of the box".
 

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]

You might wanna try the "right click & save as" method, then import to program of choice. But if you haven't cleaned out your temporary internet files directory lately, you'll find them all in there. Look in control panel for the "internet opts" icon. Open & click on "temporary internet files" settings button. Then click on "view files" button. That will show you a list of all
downloaded files including cookies & jpg's/gif's you're looking for. You'll find a bunch called sawdust this or that. Of particular interest are a few really nice designs which were named using random numbers about 20-30 long by some guy named Bruce from NY. We know you just want to view them but you better ask him if that's ok.

 

Joe R., I like your design because it is a clean sharp interpretation of my posted design that now "works".

Glenn, Your interpretation is great in its flow, and while not quite so litteral an interpretation of my original design shows a vairation that also works very well. The coloured version and the vehicle lettering (in the truck pricing thread) are great examples of how the design can be implimented.

Mark, Your design was great in that it introduced a visual presentation of the "process / service" that I had tried to capture with my design.

John, Your carved design is a very clean and well layed out, easy to read and also gives the feel of the service provided. The second looks like my shop after 20 minutes of routing, everything is covered in sawdust (or was until I installed the dust collection system). Very nice.

Cheryl, I cannot see your design just now but the use of the Log font gave both designs a sense of fun and an earthy feel. I was wondering why you choose the font you used for "noise"?

Bruce, I "knew" the round design would work but I could not "see" it. The colour version is very good, but why the light purple? Thanks
The second design with the router is great, it tells who I am, what I do, and how I do it, very good.

Stevo, I'm sorry but I cannot see yours just now (

Joe A., A very nice vaiation on the original design, bold, clean, and easy to read.

Nettie, Great design. The company was started to be a second source of income but also because it is something I have fun doing. Except for the frown and the lack of glasses (and a little more face fur) that could be me watching the router do it's thing! The second version is interseting too. I see it executed as three levels with standoffs between the front and second levels?

Bill, A great design and a great explanation of how it came to be the way it is. Thanks

Bob, Interesting variation, I liked the way you used the font and graphic "swirl" to build the design. The new text is good in that it informs the reader what I do. And I don't want to come across as being overly picky but I find the unbalanced nature of the swirl uncomfortable(?), I think a symetrical design (two legs or three) would look better (just me)?

David, I cannot find your design??? And yes you are right they are all winners.

What a way to get an education you guys (generic guys not literal guys, I hate PC speak!) are great, thanks for sharing your ideas and designs. Is there a winner ... Yep everyone who enjoyed sharing your skills, passion, art, and ideas with their fellow Letterheads (wannabees and bouttobees). Thanks

PS Pretzels are on me!
 

Well, in short, you may be right. My thought was a third "leg" would push the reader's eye to the secondary copy instead of finishing the "Noise" part. I thought this shape was kind of neat, maybe a little weird, but... oh well. If it looks uncomfortable to you, then it is uncomfortable.

I did get some time to colour it in though.

I'd like to hear more of what other people were thinking as they went through the design process... please?
 

Bruce's router bit in the "U" idea was brilliant and the execution of it very effective! "Woodsier" colours would suit my taste abit better ... but that's really just a personal preference.

Personally, designing is a building process for me. I really try to come up with a creative idea first, and build from there, ... then kind of let other ideas evolve, making it up as I go along. I'm an emotional designer and tend to focus on delivering a feeling.

In this case, the beaver was my starting point. I envisioned him with an "attitude" derived from the name. At first I was going to have him wincing with his fingers in his ears but then veered towards what I've settled on here.

On this particular design I had spent so much time getting the animation where I wanted it, that I didn't really focus too much on the lettering. I like how Bob actually added "Precision Routing" to his, that is an addition I would also deem valuable in mine.

Would this be a paying job, I'd probably plunk some more time into tweaking the type and fiddling with the positioning of my elements. Who knows where else that could lead.

One thing I always try to accomplish in my designing process is a cohesive and intentional interaction, rather than a scattered "cut & paste" look of elements.

Guy, with regards to your question on my design. Yes, I could see it done dimensionally in layers, with stand offs between each. Perhaps the beaver could also be given further dimensional attention.

I've really enjoyed this thread, and appreciate everyone's design for umteen various reasons.

Janette
 

When I look at a design situation, there are a lot of mitigating factors that have to be taken into consideration. I try to break them down into a semblence of importance according to the client's wishes.

This excercise was a little different because all I had to go on was Guy's dissertation of what he does and such along with the original rendering of his logo. When I meet with a client, i can study their mannerisms and such and can usually get a halfway decent idea of where they are coming from.

In my first design, I took it as a challenge to make the design in round format because Guy couldn't get the look he was looking for. To me he expressed a desire to see a design in this kind of layout.

I first envisioned the piece of wood with the saw blade running through. I used the saw blade kind of a thing because Guy's original rendering had a saw blade and I assumed that was the direction he wanted to go.

I used a piece of wood because sawdust is associated with wood cutting. I think that the wood worked well moving into the circle. I used the font for "Sawdust & Noise" because it was somewhat similar to one of the fonts used in the original rendering. It also looks very awesome when it is carved because of the angles that the serifs create. I use it fairly often for our carved signs.

I used the shades of purple because I think that purple has an air of class to it. It is comtemporary yet has a twinge of old-fashionedness associated to it.

I rendered the wood because I had a "look" I wanted for the piece of material. I drew the board and then distorted it, build the end grain, and outlined it.

After doing the black and white artwork, I took the design into Fireworks and utilized the Eyecandy filters I have to add the bells and whistles to the design. I thought that this design was clean and worked well in the format.

On my second rendering, I took into account the responses and such regarding just what Guy did. Being that he is into CNC routing, the saw blade really didn't fit the need to portray what the logo was trying to get across.

Like Nettie, I sometimes get an idea and work out from around that. I saw the router bit in the "U" and worked out from there. I saw the router bit chuck attached to a gantry but when I tried to work that into the design, it proved to be cumbersome looking and took away from the flow of the design.

I built the router bit and chuck, mostly because it was faster to build my own and I was really just too dang lazy to go look for one. LOL! I used the font I did for "sawdust" because it was beefy and it really seemed to work. I used the font for "and noise" because it was bouncy and seemed to fit the noisy theme.

I used the purple for the reasons stated about my first design. I purposely tried to keep the grain of the wood on the subtle side. I wanted to get the wood theme acrosst without being too loud and take away from the flow of the design. I think that different colors, like Nettie suggested, would have made the design a little stronger. Too bad... I ain't changing them! I am just too dang lazy! Hahahahahaha!

Thanks for letting me share. This excercise was a lot of fun for me. It is great to see what other people think and design. Bravo!

I am going to the kitchen for my pretzels now....

Have a great one!