Question; has anyone used Krylon Fusion as a background color on a polycarbonate pan face? I want to use it for a black bkgd. with translucent blue lettering but am uncertain of it blocking ability.
Any thoughts?
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Not a real good idea ...use GripFlex ...you'll never go wrong.
I've tried krylon in an emergency once and it flaked off in a years time...caused a lot of grief.
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Thanks Monty! That's what I needed to know. I've never used grip-flex. Where can I buy such an animal?
I'm ready to mask now!
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Greg, be sure to get thinner for it too. If you've never used GripFlex before, here's a couple tips; To make the black opaque, you can mix it a little thicher and spray it on heavier. Using GripFlex for the transluscent blue letters too? Opposite scenario if you are - mix it thinner and build up multiple light passes till it reached the color density you want. Best to do your spraying with a strong light source behind the piece so you can see the effect as you're spraying. Since the black is opaque, you can paint that on first, then remove your mask and spray the blue right over the black. Good luck.
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Then back up the blue with a few passes of soft white. Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Thanks for the replies everyone. It's really appreciated. I'll find a dealer for some Grip-flex and give it a try.
As for the blue, I'm using Avery translucent. I'm masking out the area where the blue is affixed. I planned it with a white outline around the lettering so there's no trapping problems with the black.
Thanks again folks. That's another reason why I like being involved with Letterheads.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
What size is this panel? If its 48" or less and you're using film for the copy, why not use Duranodic or Avery light blocking black?? We use GripFlex most of the time, but if you've not done it before, it's not as easy as it sounds. You MUST have a light source. We usually just install the face in the cabinet backwards for spraying and light control.
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Hi Pierre,
The pan is a 5'x 3'. I actually thought it would be easier to spray the background rather than try and get a vinyl to conform nicely to the corners of the pan.
As far as spraying goes, I'm pretty well set up to shoot auto primers, sealers, finishes, etc. from working on street rods. Is this stuff pretty difficult to use?
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Hey Greg, No, if you're familiar with spraying automotive finishes it'll be a breeze to use (in my opinion). Very similar to spraying acrylic lacquer, in that you can vary the consistency to match your spraying technique, and the way it dries (fast). Another nice similarity - because these colors are so transparent, they intermix beautifully. You can create any color you need from a few primary shades. A small inventory of black, white, blue, red and yellow could fill 90% of the jobs you're likely to encounter. Unlike opaque automotive applications, you're spraying everything THIN to remain transparent, so your stock goes a long way.
You can tell it's been a while since I used it when Dave had to add the note about the all-important white backing. Without that diffuser, you'd see banding from the lamps inside the sign. Thanks Dave. Spraying is a little deceptive because you don't get the true sense of the color till it's backed up and has light coming through it from behind. Knowing when you've got enough color on there and are ready for backing takes some getting used to.
For a light source, you can prop the piece up in front of an outside doorway - a walk-in door for a small piece like you're doing, or a roll-up bay door for larger pieces. The strong light from outside will provide ample illumination to simulate the lighted can. Darken the shop a little if need be. Holding a piece of translucent white plex behind the sprayed areas can give you a preview of how it will look after it's backed with white.
Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book here, but I have some concern over the use of translucent vinyl in a clear pan face like this, particularly with the white outline which I presume also wants to be translucent. It seems like a lot of steps and materials when one mask would do both by spraying. Personally, I would lay down one mask with the letters and outlines pre-cut, spray my opaque black, peel out the blue letters and spray, then peel off the white border mask and back everything up with white. Done, with no waiting between layers. Although that means buying three cans of GripFlex instead of one, I wound have a lot of stock left for future jobs. (I'd also still have my translucent Avery for that quickie surface job on translucent white plex that is coming in next week) hehe.
Ok, back to work I guess. Thanks for listening to my ramble.
[ December 23, 2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Joe Rees ]
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Thanks Joe,
This is a white trans pan face right now, so I didn't see the need to use white as a backer, right?
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
WHITE? You didn't mention it was white Greg. (ahem). In that case kick everything I said to the curb. It applies to working on CLEAR faces.
Now you might have another problem...I don't thing GripFlex is intended for first-surface use - it's a sub-surface product. If your black is being exposed to the elements you'll need a real paint, and you'll probably need to scuff the surface for adhesion. AwlGrip? Somebody help me out here.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yo... Joey! Are you saying that GripFlex should be sprayed THIN?? I don't think so. EQUAL, even coverage is most important for even light transmission, and most of the time it doesn't end up being very thin at all. You must backspray with white if the panel is clear Polycarb, and if your coats aren't of an "even" consistency (despite thickness) you're going to have one heck of a mess. Even with black, backlighting while spraying is VERY important. And Joey is right. GripFlex is for inside, not outside the panel. Are we talking about the same paints here?
Duranodic or blackout films can easily be formed to cover an entire panface. IMHO of course.
[ December 23, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Wow, sorry I wasn't more clear guys (no pun intended).
I was hoping to get this thing painted and up by tomorrow, but it looks like I'll just need to get some block-out film as the best solution here.
Thanks again for everyone's help & advice.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Oh, YEAH!? Oh, YEAH?? Well...... cool!
heh.......
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
In my experience: Black GripFlex, Opaque, 1st surface = no problem. There is very good literature available from Akzo Nobel regarding technique, save yourself some years of frustration and read it should you plan to do much of this type of work. I'd thin with T-2004 this time of year 100% thinner to lacquer for black, 1st or 2nd surface. Let each pass flash before the next is applied. There is a UV-Clear available if spraying colors that will fade on 1st surface, works great, not necessary for black.
Please be careful not using explosion proof lamp fixtures for your light sources. Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
I know it says that, Dave, but the black goes weird in a year's worth of UV when its on the top. I mean the color is no longer glossy and even. We're still talking about GripFlex, right?
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Yes Pierre, Grip Flex. Yep, the gloss fades with time without the UV-Clear, but I usually end up with a satin finish with black, so I don't notice that much. We reworked two large four sided pylon signs this summer. Eight to Ten years old. Each of the eight sides had red, orange & blue Grip Flex mixes sprayed 1st surface on white plex with UV-Clear applied as a top coat to the color only. Those sprayed areas showed no fading & very little loss of gloss. You won't get that kind of performance from vinyl. Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Dave, do you do this regularly?? And you use a clear over the black? If you had to change the copy on the panel, how would you do it?
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Pierre, I agree EVEN-ness is more accurate than THIN-ness. When I say spray it thin, I mean you thin it out a lot to reach spraying consistency. The final built-up coat ends up being pretty heavy.
Now, who said you could call me Joey? Was it my mom? I told her not to do that. Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
After reading all this, I WANT to try messing around with this stuff. Sounds pretty cool. I don't do many pan signs like this, so I'm not well versed on the proper ways to handle colors like these when they're not vinyl.
I've replaced numerous pan faces with vinyl, but haven't stepped up to paint on polycarbonate yet. And, I only assumed that One Shot was not an option here. That's where I actually thought Krylon Fusion MIGHT be an option since they're touting its plastics compatibility.
I'd like to learn more. Is Akzo's site the best place?
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Our Grip Flex use fluctuates, but still pretty, pretty, pretty often Pierre. No, I rarely, (may as well say never,) use clear on black.
We wouldn't plan to spray 1st surface black that has the potential of needing changes without designing for it. By planning an inset border or dividing line around the area possibly needing changes we leave room for that area to be masked and stripped without affecting the adjacent areas. Rubbing, knife paintmask, apply, strip with solvent alcohol, apply new copy mask, spray. Honestly haven't done many like this, and certainly not recently, vinyl is clearly more versatile and less costly for the faces requiring changes.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Ok, Davey... So I assume that you would typically NOT use GripFlex on the exterior other than an unusual application? We haven't had a reason in our AO to do an exterior application, but we do periodically remove GripFlex from Poly panels to reuse them for a new layout. The trick is to have NO cut lines in the Poly from the previous artwork. More and more often we're using white Poly with film. I'm not sure if I miss all the paint work or not. Somehow I felt more "validated" using paint. The old ways and the old guys are fading.......... aren't we. Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Here's a completely uneducated dumb comment: My Ex is a body man. (when he works) I have done 2 pans in my entire 18-year career. He sprayed them with Grip-Flex. Our supplier said to use 12 mist coats. Grip-Flex is wicked sticky paint, it made a big mess, and got the Ex higher than all that pot he used to smoke. I would try to use a translucent vinyl. I never recommend it, but if you are not used to spraying, consider using vinyl. A good light source is essential in any method you choose. Good Luck! Love- JILL (ps...glad the Ex is gone, I never got many calls for pan faces anyway & it wasn't worth keeping him around for that & installations!)
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![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
I don't think so.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
of course.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Oh, YEAH?? ![[Applause]](graemlins/clap.gif)
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No, I rarely, (may as well say never,) use clear on black.