This is topic "BLEEDING HEARTS" ONLY in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.


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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
BUT ITS OK TO LEAVE THE POST THAT SAYS BLEEDING HEARTS DONT READ? lets get some level of equality.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
You don't read?? How do you type?
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Ummm joe,

I think the call has ended you can hang up the phone now!
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
PERRIE same could be said for you....
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Oooh! That HURT!! Be nice, Joey!
 

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Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
I observe very little equality about expressing opinions here on this board.

I watch non - bleeding heart posts go on and on and on doing their ditto head routines without any interference.

Then, usually after I am alerted by someone, I chose to come in, or Joe comes in and everything is suddenly called political, stopped, deleted, locked.

When it comes to a claim of not showing favoritism, I watch actions rather than listen to words.

I believe that this BullBoard is an important part in a lot of lives, as is evidenced by the "regulars". I also believe that some of the off topic stuff, be it political or otherwise, is what gives it color and keeps it from being Dullsville and totally predictable.

The fact that the editing/deleting seems so biased is a shame that keeps me away most of the time now; I can't be spontaneous, since I am not mainstream. Half of what I say gets deep sixed.
I try to express myself with civility, and do not say anything any more flagrant or opinionated than the others.

There is diversity out here away from this board, and also within our ranks. It simply does not show up on our Bulletin Board proper because of the editing practices, which keep a lot of the so-called Bleeding hearts from becoming vocal.

We are adults, we can self regulate, we can give each other knocks on the head. To stack the deck where the "rights" get to speak, and the "wrongs" are encouraged by censure to better stay quiet is not what I call equality.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Yup. Yup. What Myra said.
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
I think steves latest moves have been right on. Closing a topic before it gets bad... No need to edit out any personal atacks that way or see feelings get hurt.
I beleve he can sense the tone and moves well.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Actually, I do have something to add. (surprise surprise)

Everyone has a reason to hang out here. I look for the odd problems with installs or applications and answer when I'm able. One very odd thing that happens to me ALL the time is the emails I get asking to further discuss "whatever" by email or, often by phone.

Sometimes I wonder if there is an inherent felt embarrassment in responding to a renegade mouth like me on the open forum. I rather enjoy the phone calls as I'm able to actually help in depth, but the situation still strange.

I'm tense and rather wired waiting for something to happen with my shining star (Rosemary), so I find myself posting weird schtuff on the three boards I frequent. I even found myself getting testy with a moron from France on my own Swiss Board. Amazing, since I'm ALWAYS the epitome of an even-handed, level headed gentleman (HEY!! QUIT THAT SNICKERING!!) on my own forum. You may not believe it, but my smooth handling of some 2,000 posters from all over the world is well known in those Swiss Rifle circles. Wierd, eh?

So why not here. Why not on the AW. I'm not sure. Maybe I feel too familiar among other artists. Lyn thinks that this is one of the only places I'm actually a true semblance of myself. Sometimes nice..... sometimes not at all, but I do like it here.

Blahblahblah.. oh, well.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
And, Curtis... give me a break. I've been a Chief Mod for one hell of a long time and I NEVER "anticipate" where a thread is leading. Not with adults.
Like it or not, Myra IS right. I have a tremendous amount of respect for this member Myra. Can you name one time EVER that she's been off the mark? (I'll answer for you) NO! She hasn't.
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
Yes pierre. I have all due respect for your abilities. I have admired your stuff for a long time.

I to have mod'd and Admin'd in several boards too. I know the work. And I appreciate the fact every board has its own personality and a few Flamers..

However, I beleive that I and others have in many cases anticipate when a post will go bad. The ones I cannot are the ones that turn ugly at the next turn from someone who does not usually flame. No one can anticipate that.

Likewise, myself and several other MODS in one of my favorite boards discussed in IM's and in irc chats and watched while certain threads turned sour and locked them instantly. We knew the flamers and waited for the moment they flamed.

Thank you for your post
 

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Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Myra is right on. Although I took no offense at the post that said bleeding hearts dont read, it is pretty much the norm on the board among a few.
Thing is, I pretty much agreed with what was being said. He should be dealt with severely, and I'm pretty sure he will. That being said, us believers in the liberal way of thinking are pretty much the outcasts here. I've made alot of friends here and like quite a few of the posters, but even some of those enjoy raking us liberal thinkers over the coals. But in the big scheme of things, none of this matters. I don't let it bother me, and I don't let it affect my opinion of anyone. I come here to pick up tricks and see how everyone is doing and sometimes offer some help of my own. In all actuality, politics sucks anyway. I like having friends too much to let something like politics get in the way.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Curtis!! You were supposed to get riled!! heh.......
But, Curtis, all flames die down eventually. Repeatedly dousing the fire only frustrates, and then you face losing truly good people like Myra.
That's what being American is about. Holler like hell..... then forgive. If you can't forgive and forget, then you probably don't belong here, or on either one of my Forums either.

This is what Steve SHOULD do. A flame shows up and just won't die down? Email the poster and get him or her to resolve it amicably. Allow the membeship to settle it out and control the flames themselves. Sometimes it takes a bit longer and the flames grow a bit.

And I, like Steve, do NOT tolerate direct, specific name calling or blatant, personal insults on my forums. If the poster won't control him/herself, I email a simple warning. Next post in the thread that continues despite the warning, the poster gets his/her account frozen for a day. Second time its a week. Third time its permanent pending a personal appeal from the offender. This isn't rocket science. Its simple realistic handling of unknown folks on the other end of a keyboard. Continual deleting posts and threads is weak handling of a forum and only leads to animosity or desertion of the board. I have a LOT more people with whom to deal than there are here on the Letterheads, and I don't experience these problems.
Am I magic? Yeah, right. But I do have a sequence with which my membership is familiar, adn I NEVER waver from it. In 5 years I've deleted two accounts who were not allowed to return. ALL other problems between members were ultimately resolved, and try THAT in the firearms world.

Rosemary is jabbing me IN THE RIBS and I wish she'd QUIT IT!! But she's right. I'm talking too much.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
What's this? A mutiny?

I'd love to see one of you sit here and make the decisions we do everyday. Curtis and Pierre may do a great job of moderating their Discussion Forums, but I'll bet it's not their fulltime job. I'd be interested to learn if everyone in their Discussion Forums use their real names and meet each other personally throughout the year.

Myra, OP and all the Democrates think I treat the Republicans better. Meanwhile we get e-mail and phone calls from Republicans accussing us of being bleeding hearts. And then there are the letters from our fellow Canadians, the Europeans and our good friends from Australia.

We've pretty well seen and heard it all in the last 9 years. I'm always amazed at the hate and intolerance that still exists in this World today. That includes some of the good people of Letterville.

There are a few people on this BB who refuse to respect The simple Laws Of Letterville we have set in place. You all agreed to the rules when applying for the priviledge to post here. Does your word mean nothing?

Know what really gets to me? The worse offenders are often people we call friends. People we have spent time with in person and really like as people. There are many times I don't share their political and other views. So far, we've always managed to respect each others right to think freely and concentrate on the things that brought us together. In most cases these days, that is Letterville.

I've always had much respect for Myra. The few times we've got to chat on the phone or in person always seem to be too short. Myra grew up in a time and place that was much tougher than most of us. In another forum, I would love to hear everything she has to say on every subject. There is a time and place for everything. Experience has taught us that there are some subjects that are just not helpful in our goal to help bring Letterheads together.

I don't mean to spotlight Myra, but her remarks about Letterville becoming boring without debates about American politics hit a nerve. Myra is in a position to help all of us learn more about pricing and improving our lives economically. Why can't you guys and gals summon up the same passion you have on political issues, and apply it to the things that unite us here in Letterville?

One last thing. The Letterville BB is not email. If you need to talk to us about anything private, please use email.
 

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Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
 
It is lonely at the top, isn't it Steve?
Seems like the one in charge or head of household, business etc. is never at a loss for advice of how to run things.

[ December 15, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Yup. Many of my members meet at shoots every year. Most use their real names and will give it to you if you ask. I require real names and addresses when registering.
I monitor the SRDC from 4:30 am until 9:30 pm every day of the week.
Don't get defensive, Steve. I take criticism all the time from members, wife, kids, in-laws. Geez!
If you can see nothing useful at all in these posts then I would wonder about your ability to judge posts from others.
Nope. No mutiny. Not from me. I like it here, but I also want to be able to express myself. When that ends, so do I. I hope it never does.
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
thank you myra and pierre.....this is all iam also saying........it wasnt the fact that sadam got captured, its the HATE AND MEAN, AND NASTY things......MY FREINDS and peers where exhibiting......call me a bleeding heart...yea it bleeds when most of these people say thing that I KNOW ARE really beneath them.

[ December 16, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 


Well I guess I owe a few people apologies. For some reason I always just assumed everyone had some sort of house rules. And to think I always believed those who hosted the meet actually had a say in how it was conducted. What was I thinking?

I want those that have no respect or value for our rules to allow me the same freedom when I come to your house or meet. OP actually has a rule about smoking in his house. I don't agree with it! First thing we do next visit is invite the whole AA crowd over for a meeting at OPs. I've also decided there should be free Bingo at OP's at least twice a week. You ain't seen smoking until you get these guys and gals puffing away! I'd threaten OP with lewd, crude behavior but he would actually like that.

I think a meeting of the anti gun crowd would just the thing to host at Pierres. A same sex marriage would be wonderful in Montana in Spring. There's no doubt in my mind that Pierre would be happy to put aside any house rules his family might have to accomadate OP and me. Can you imagine those two together?

I'm not going to even attempt my wit on Myra. That woman can write. She'd have me on the ropes in no time.

Yikes! Just as I was about to hit the "Add Reply" button, Op went and edited his last post. Now all this sarcastic venom I wrote is useless. Remind me to get rid of that edit option someday.

I hope I haven't made the situation worse with my attempt at black humour. The purpose was only to try and point out that we all have house rules, guidelines or whatever we expect our guests to follow. You don't have to like ours, but you should have made that decision before agreeing to honour them.

Barb and I have been at this for 9 years now. It's been our full time business and source of income for over 6 years now. I'm always telling people to only listen to advice from those that have achieved, or have, whatever it is you desire. I always had a mentor in the sign business, but we find ourselves alone in this web biz.

When it comes to sign related forums, we're the only ones doing it fulltime. With no model to follow, we can only do what our conscience says is right for us. There are a handful of people that I have grown to respect over the years. We know they care about The Letterhead Movement, Letterville and us. There are many times I seek them out for their advice and suggestions. As long as they give us the nod, and the site continues to grow, I have to assume our policies are working.

That's about it. My wisemen and woman have suggested I talk too much. You think?



[ December 16, 2003, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
 

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Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Good one Steve.
 

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Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
 
So. Do the liberals or conservatives have the snappier layouts? Does a political perspective make one's signs better?
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Exactly Rick!
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
As much as it frustrates people (including me) when Steve cancels you out mid-debate; I think he's right on for doing it and in the end glad he does.

I have to laugh, because while Myra claims the liberal view is quashed, I always felt that the conservative view was quashed....and I see the same vitriolic feelings expressed on the "left" as others claim come from the "right".

Subtleties and mild innuendos are no less harmful than blunt, slap-in-the-face declarations. Whether it's pointing out somebody misspelling a word in an attempt to make them look stupid, or calling them a "flaming liberal"...the effect is the same - a quickly degenerating discourse and what I like to term as a "digital fistfight". (feel free to use that phrase)

And even though I've been on the receiving end of chastisement from Steve...I hereby thank him for it. Left unchecked, these things can cause some major harm and even cause people to pull up stakes and leave, thereby harming the owners of this site.

Do I enjoy a good debate at times? Sure. And a good chain yanking to those that you don't agree with, and you know you can frustrate is not out of the question either. That's honesty...but again, in the end counterproductive and a waste of time, really.

And I'll have to disagree with the notion that you can't "sniff out" or sense a post going bad. Anyone and everyone who speaks english here can tell immediately when the tone changes. Steve, in my opinion (and again, I've occassionaly been a guilty party too) is right to douse the fire before it consumes the entire house.

So, from my chair...I apologize for my prior antagonizing behavior. I will probably fall off the wagon of proper decorum from time-to-time, but will fall into line with a mild nudge from those overseeing this site.

Good day to all....and have a Merry Christmas too.
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Ummmm... Conservatives?

heh...........

I'm thinking about all of this. Steve and Barb are cool people with a sometimes uncool job. I want to think about this today and reread it all. Hopefully it will still be here later today. I really would like to close it in my own mind at least.

In the words of a guy who has a great wife he doesn't deserve....... "Have a great one!!"
 

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Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
 
Last night My wife and I had an argument over who should have won the latest installment of Survivor. The discussion got pretty heated but when it was all said and done we both climbed into the same bed and kissed goodnight. I'm not saying I want to kiss any or go to bed with any of you but there will always be two sides to an argument. Sometimes neither is right but we all must agree to disagree. I have had plenty of heated words with others on this board. In the end I still have to respect everyone for being a part of the reason we are all here, LETTERHEADS. And most of all I have to respect the Man and Woman putting on the party. I garauntee if I had a party at my house and someone got out of line and didn't follow my rules they would be on their a$$ on the front lawn. In fact I've thrown a few people out of my house. I have had my scoldings by the Mayor and First Lady. I walked away from here for a while and chose not to give them my money, but in the end I relized I was only hurting myself. Let's all agree to disagree once and a while and let's let Steve deal with things in a way he sees fit.

[ December 16, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Robert Larkham ]
 

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Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
 
Yup. You're right. This is his domain.
Adios
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I think distaste for Saddam is pretty universal among us here as well as the majority of the world. I also think to vent in extreme exaggerated ways is human nature. I think many of those who would blurt out all the sadistic ways they could imagine torturing the evil dictators of our world are just releasing some of the tension of having lived with the fear or disgust brought upon us by those dictators.

I don't think everyone who would quickly join the mob mentality of comparing sadistic punishments in a discussion would answer a serious inquiry by their own child regarding justice & punishment with the same off-the-cuff rant.

I guess I'm saying that although I'm not a heavilly practicing christian... & although I consider myself a christian anyway... I would not hesitate to speak or feel vengeful against Saddam because it seems natural to feel that, though that feeling is largely influenced by distorted "news" & misinformation.

I have not really felt that Letterville is favoring conservative politics. I think Letterville favors tolerance, cooperation, & respect.

I think that majority opinions (on potentially inflammatory topics) are not always censored because they are tolerated as long as they do not become heated divisive battles.

If there seems to be more tolerance of conservative political opinions then liberal ones here, I think that is simply a direct correlation the possibility that there are a greater number of participents in our discussions that hold conservative political views.

If there seems to be more tolerance of cussing, or generally non-puritan behavior then there is of overt religious preaching, (I don't know.. is there? who cares... I'm just using it as a hypothetical example)it is again a reflection of the percentages of views expressed, & weather or not any dissenting opinions surface, and/or how volital the dissent becomes.

If liberal political views were posted every day, & no dissenting opinions replied, they would not be censored. If Conservative political views are posted... there may be a greater likelyhood that a number of replies in agreement of those views would acumulate before any dissent. Eventually the cumulative effect of zealous un-checked political views tends to draw in the voicing of opposing views. When this is done without too many personal attacks, or in particularily difficult times (like the now-famous 200 reply post at the beginning of the war against iraq) the thread does not get closed.

Personally I didn't think the recent thread was that bad, & I may have added something if it wasn't closed... but it was & I fully respect Steve's decision & whatever it was based on.

I really don't see a bias in Letterville except twards civilty, & I think any apperance of bias is just an effect of the different percentages of people holding different views.

One post I want to comment on is Steve's sentance:

quote:

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...her remarks about Letterville becoming boring without debates about American politics hit a nerve

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quote:

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I also believe that some of the off topic stuff, be it political or otherwise, is what gives it color and keeps it from being Dullsville

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I think any nerve that was hit was in mis-reading or mis-quoting her words... not from what Myra actually said.
 

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Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
 
WOW............

aaand to think that I got up really early this morning so I could get on this BB to say what a wonderful guy I think a
sadaam is, just to watch all youse guys go over the edge.............

But it looks like ya'll are doin just fine without any stupid comments like that, so I won't say it.....

Now I'll probably be awake all nite tryin to dream up something else dumb to say to upset everyone tommorrow.......

Life is Good.......!!

Anywayzzzzzzzz....
You Kiddzz Have a Good, Safe, Holiday season...........


.........cj
 

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Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Doug Allan - you are one cool Dude .

I don’t agree with everything you say exactly, but I am very happy to see that you took the time and energy to bring reasoned opinion to this topic. I respect you for that.

There is no need for us all to agree on how we see things, but for clarity and civility in our interaction there is a need to at least think through what you are reading before we respond off the cuff or with one- liners of little substance.
.
Of course what we read runs through our mental and opinionated filters, I personally simply get sarcastic when I feel that I am not really being “read” but that the person reading is thinking only about how to discount me as quickly as possible.

This quote from you-

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If there seems to be more tolerance of conservative political opinions then liberal ones here, I think that is simply a direct correlation the possibility that there are a greater number of participents in our discussions that hold conservative political views.
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-gave me pause and made me rethink my accusation of favoritism.
I believe you are absolutely correct. I think now, taking what you said into consideration, that it is not so much the “ liberal “ view coming into the picture that makes the posts “go bad”, but the fact that the picture then changes into something that could potentially become volatile and sort of scary.
The lock/delete factor enters in to prevent that potential. In other words, the long diatribes that make me uncomfortable, are not necessarily sanctioned by not being stopped or locked. Because as long as they are all expressing the same opinion there is not any danger to having a post "go bad" with dissention in the ranks.

I always did understand Steve’s feelings of having to “keep a lid on things.” Understanding it does not mean I always agree with it, and I do not have to. I can still remain a member here in relatively good standing. I've said I believe a paternalistic way of treating adults is not really necessary and that we could self regulate. But I am not in charge, and it is not “my house”.

I would like to put out to you, Doug, and the other readers, that the country still is pretty divided into 50/50 on most issues, with ups and downs happening – (especially when we find the Ace in the Hole )- and that my personal mail from people who belong to this board and who don’t post, naturally does run in favor of my feelings. I do not get personal mail that flames me.

I neither can (nor do I want to) speculate on why they don’t post themselves, which would therefore make the number of participants you mention look more balanced and we would have a reflection of the way things really are.

Altogether you hit on something that made me mellow out on the subject.
Thank you for that.


.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
Thanks for pointing out my error in words Doug. It's just that the only politics that ever come up here are American politics. I can't even tell you the names of political parties in Australia or Europe. Can those of you outside these countries name them. Probally not.

Oh! Oh! Barb says Hank Williams Jr., David Allan Coe and Merle Haggard are at the door. I'm in trouble now.


 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Myra, it is nice to feel that ones thoughts in a post made sense to others, or were appreciated. Glad to hear that this was the case with my post, & I very much appreciated your comments on the "not for bleeding hearts" post.
When I re-read my post, I asked myself if I agreed with everything I has said. I decided it summed up my thoughts well enough to hit the "submit" button (I was somewhat fearful that the time I spent writing may have been enough time for the post to have found itself becoming a locked topic ) I did feel there was one omission I considered addressing at that point. I will do that now.

when I said:

quote:

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I would not hesitate to speak or feel vengeful against Saddam because it seems natural to feel that...

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I will add that I would not hesitate to speak or feel vengeful against GWB either.

Steve, my comparison of quotes or references was not questioning the inclusion of the word "American" in regards to political topics. I felt that Myra's reference to "...the off topic stuff, be it political or otherwise" was a comment that points to all the birthday wishes, sharing of sympathy, birth announcements, discussion of the weather, guitar lessons, shop music, marketing books Holiday cheer etc. etc. & I think as much as this is a sign related forum... part of why it feels like a family is the inclusion of OT discussions of all kinds.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I have no objection to OT posts. Look over the topic list and you'll see all sorts. Letterville is really not about signs, as much as it is about the people that make them.

Over the years, we've all made new friends here, a couple got married and a few had affairs. We've shared our victories, losses and the whole spectrum of human emotions together. Sometimes we have our differences, but in most cases, we manage to agree to disagree, and somehow get back together. I think most would agree that there is definitly a feeling of family here that carries over to the live meets.

In the first few years, we believed people could discuss just about everything in an "adult" way. It seems to work until politics and religion come up. One only needs to turn on any news show to see many adults have no idea how to conduct a civil discussion. In our experience, any discussion of religion and/or politics always results in name calling, behind the scene e-mails and a batch of other nasty things that only divide us.

Look how much activity this post has generated. What you see here is just the tip of the iceberg. Behind the scenes there are emails and phone calls happening.

Each of us only has so much time to spend in Letterville each day. I'd prefer to spend my time answering questions, reporting on live meets, finding new Residents and Merchats, etc. etc. We've got a great slideshow of Bill Riedel's portraits just waiting for a few finishing touches. I'm a two finger typer. Answering e-mail and writing these witty responces take forever. There's all sorts of other things we could be spending time on instead of nitpicking each other.

We invite you to investigate all the various topics here. It's all too easy to get caught up in these types of posts and miss others. Your questions and answers may make a big difference to somebody. If you are one of our many lurkers, I want to personally dare you to make your first post. Just tell us about yourself, your business, family, dreams and goals.
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
Yeah, isn't it great we can come in here to opine, for instance, our disagreement with "50/50" statistics or other declarations without personally attacking someone's intelligence?

When we lace our posts with cianide; that's when it's time to close 'er down. The coffee still tastes the same, but after a few moments of digestion, you know you've been skewered.

I would like to add a couple thoughts:

One liner's shouldn't be looked down upon. There have been many one liner's uttered throughout history that are profound in their brevity. Many members have them posted as a tagline to their addresses.

And who can ever forget the popular movie line, "I'll be back!" Kinda said it all didn't it? It wouldn't have been nearly as effective had he broke into a flowery dissertation.

Writing a wonderfully flowing and punctually perfect put-down carries with it the same razor honed edge and destructive payload as a matter-of-fact declaration like, "you're an idiot."

The truly intelligent person is also a diplomatically restrained person and understands that to say nothing is sometimes the most intellectually superior thing to do. And I'm not claiming to be in that category...(obviously ;-))


I'm reminded of the scripture which in part states, ..."but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison." The nicest people I can think of have at times mounted a verbal assault with the intentions of inflicting pain.

When you sense the debate going south is when the zipper of the thread should go up.
 

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Posted by Gail & Dave Beattie (Member # 572) on :
 
I'm not going anywhere near the majority of this post, but I would like to comment on one point that Steve mentioned

quote:

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It's just that the only politics that ever come up here are American politics. I can't even tell you the names of political parties in Australia or Europe

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