Been kicking this around for a few weeks....Mainly fishing for opinions, both pro / con...
Taking an existing companies logo, be it a decal, wording, etc. and selling it for profit at a venue, whether it be e bay style auctions, flea markets etc. As far as known there is not a copy of this as "Corporate Clip Art" or has there ever been an authorization of its use outside of the company. Where would the line be as this being public domain.
Barring just a perceived ethical issue, what is the general consensus of the board.
There may be more I add to this post
[ October 29, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Signs By Sam ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
OK, I'll start... barring the ethics that it is obviously wrong...
I see it as a gamble. We don't know that it is protected, we don't know that the owner will ever catch you, & we don't know that they can afford to make trouble for you. But any of these 3 unknowns are far more likely then the possibility that the owner would say... "sure go sell my logo for profit... I don't care" which I guess is why we are having this little excercise, since the owner won't be consulted.
Thats my vote twords the consensus.
I have copied a logo now & then for profit, but will only do 1-time stuff for 1 persons enjoyment. I still consider it ethically wrong, but a very low-risk "gamble" for penalty.
Posted by Tony Potter (Member # 1199) on :
Let's say the word/logo is something like "Hooters" from the restaurant chain. I would say you would get in trouble if you mass sold items with their logo on them. They actually make a bit of money from their trademark and merchendising. The second someone 'in the know' saw a non-sanctioned merchendice, my bet is that it would be followed up on.
Let's say the work/logo is something like "Chevy" and bowtie. That one is a bit more vague and I have definitely seen that around flea markets and such in a non-sanctioned fashion. I would say you might get away with a bit more on that one.
Let's say the word/logo is something like "Burger King"... they do not do a lot of merchendising with their logo and the chances of someone 'in the know' running across it and reporting it are much less.
So, I guess my opinion would be if they make money from their trademarked logo on things, the greater chance you would have of getting called on the carpet.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
Hi Sam
Why would an existing company logo become public domain ??
I can't find one single argument to make the unauthorized production for profit "right".
There was a similar discussion not too long ago about copyrights, where some of those ethical issues came up. Might be interesting, if you can find it.
Just my 2 cents (a lousy 1.25 cents US )
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
I withdraw everything I just said. You are not going to believe what I did while typing the above answer: I interupted my typing to talk to a customer who wanted me to letter his repainted tailgate, and I told him I'd have it ready in a couple days, then went back to finish my post. What goes on the tailgate is "Chevrolet".... I think I'd be better off not telling this to anybody, but it's just such a classical case of "plank in my own eye", that it is actually funny. If you're looking for me, I'll be sitting in the corner...
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
There is no "percieved" ethical issue, it is illegal too copy, or reproduce a coyrighted, registered or trademarked logo or image for any reason be it personal or profit. You may speed down the street or spark up a joint in your house and figure "who am I hurting" but the fact is, there are laws that govern us, and protect everyones rights, the same principle applies, if you reproduce and sell a logo, other than it's intended use, that is stealing, where's the perception? I have been asked to do a logo or 2 in my time for friend, so I have been guilty of doing it, I justified it by saying I was doing it for free, Who was I hurting? After seeing another signshop take my work, I learned that it can hurt me. I don't know if confronted by a good friend I wouldn't do it again, but I would hope that I would do the right thing.
Rick
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Legal or not legal isn't the issue, it's "What are the chances of being caught?"
Yeah yeah it's illegal and I don't think there's any time when a corporate logo becomes public domain, it's not like when someone writes a song and in 20 years after their death their right to protect it evaporates.
Anyway...
You have to use some judgement here and be on your toes. Ask yourself if the company in question has been known to enforce their image, and if not is the company large enough (money-wise) to seriously bring legal action against you. If they do bring legal action, the first thing they're gonna do is send a "Cease and Desist" letter telling you to stop. Fair warning. You could just sell the logos and call it quits if/when you get the letter, no big deal.
Keep this in mind though.. companies like Disney, Harley and a few others are VERY protective about their logos/images, and have been known to go directly to flea markets, swap meets, car shows, etc and completely shut down people selling unlicensed products on the spot, confiscating all the product and levying hefty fines.
Morally, it's wrong. Legally, it's wrong. Honestly, just be careful about it.
Posted by pcbytes (Member # 1444) on :
I think in Lotties case you are not selling the logo you are selling the paint or vinyl or whatever it just happens to be shaped in the same shape as the logo chevrolet. It might be a problem if you put it on a FORD.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I pretty much agree with Mike... it is a legal gamble, with greater & lesser degrees of risk based on circumstances.
But Rick's post got me thinking... (oh-oh )
quote: There is no "percieved" ethical issue... ...I would hope that I would do the right thing.
I looked up ethical - "of or pertaining to ethics" so I looked up ethics - "...based on morals" so I looked up morals:
quote: mor·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (môrl, mr-) adj. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty
As I said, I am guilty of doing the occassional 1 time deal, like Lotti's "Chevrolet" job. Unlike Rick, I have charged for this. $50 or whatever... not something I think Henery Ford's grandkids want to be bothered with.(OK Henery Chevy ) So, when Rick says he doesn't know if he would do it again (now that he has experienced having his own creative property stolen) & hopes he would do "the right thing"... THAT IS THE "PERCIEVED ETHICAL QUESTION" no one appears to debate the fact that it is illegal, I think the post was more about how many of us might feel about it, morally.
My mom tried to raise me to respect the law with such blind faith that to her... following the law was morally correct, & not following it was morally incorrect. Well, I say "tried" but it didn't work. my generation has questioned authority, & as with many things, the passage of time has shown an evolution of morals, & in many cases, of laws. Often laws have evolved for the better, not always. I could use abortion as an example... but I won't say which it is an example of
So I guess my point is that I believe the moral "right" is not always identical to the legal "right" & therefore I believe the statement "percieved ethical issue" is correct, & it is a nebulous perception, but possibly one to which a consensus of letterhead opinion might be reached.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Now you have me thinking Doug
I think it is not a gray area, it bothered my conscience to do it, even for free. I wanted too confess that I have done it, but in doing soo exposed my hipocrasy.(hey, I am human) I have gone against what I know is morally right, and have given in too peer pressure, and allowed that to cloud my judgement, the right thing is to not reproduce a logo without consent from the entity who owns that right. The right thing? Tell my buddy or my brother to get it somewhere else.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
"Friends don't ask friends to illegally reproduce logos." Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
"just say NO" to stickers
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I can't speak for Chevy, Ford, or Harley but I for one would be happy to let everyone of you take my logo and put it on every thing you can think of.
Please...put my logo out there for the entire world to see. I really don't mind. I can't think of a cheaper way for me to advertise my company.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Getting caught is NOT the issue. It is either right or wrong. Have I done it??? Yes. Probably everybody has. Some companies are flattered by the use of their logos...like a ram head on a graphic. How many of them are actually produced by Dodge. How much Coke stuff is actually licensed by Coke.
Enforcement would be impossible, and I think we know that. However, I still refrain from using a corporate logo without their written permission. They are usually good about it.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I am starting a new organiization: F.A.D.D.
"Friends against duplicated decals"
Posted by Tasmus (Member # 445) on :
For me personally, there is a BIG difference between say; a logo made by one of you guys ( I feel VERY strongly about that), and the frickin' Mcdonald's M. I have and will continue to do Ford, Dodge, Chevy and so on stickers. I will not take another sign-guys design, or swipe from individuals. This is totally different. Besides, it is nice cool cash. CASH. MONEY.
But that is another moral can o' worms altogether aint it??
B (man where is the PIRATE GRAEMLIN, anyway?)
[ October 29, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Tasmus ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Hehehhe..
I guess we know who has some freetime on their hands.. or are we all procrastinating? Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
I wrote to Harley Davidson to see if I could get permission to reproduce their logo, and got no response. I figured they would OK it's use if they got a piece of the profit. I guess they're too busy to bother with the small guy.Also wrote to get the official version of the logo, as well as the anniverary logo, but still no response. If this is typical of large corporations, no wonder people are using logos without permission
btw....never did reproduce the HD logo...I just did it in my own script and the customer loved it.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Jeff, harley doesn't manage their licensing. That's left up to a major licensing company called The Beanstalk Group.
If you contact them I bet they'd be more than happy to send you a bill in exchange for a license agreement.
In response to one post aboutnever having heard of a logo going into the public domain ..... and to shed some light on why some companies will aggressively enforce their rights:
This comes from a trademark attorney so I pass it on as unconfirmed but probably correct.
The Lanham Act has a provision in it which states in essence, that If an infringement on a trademarked property takes place, and the owner of the intellectual property is aware of it, and takes no action against the infringing party to cause it to cease, then after one year the trademarked property shall be in the public domain.
This then explains why so many companies turn a blind eye to infringement, why others constantly change their logos, and others so aggressively seek out infringers.
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
Seen this in action through my involvement with Volkswagen Campers.
VW, through a law firm, went after ANYONE they could find using ANY VW trademark on ANYTHING. This included repro parts that VW no longer offered, cups, stickers, key rings and even club websites.
The first notification was always the same, a cease and desist letter from the law firm. Included in this letter was harsh language about penalties and also the opportunity to register your use of the trademark for non-profit use only. I have no idea what happened to those who were using it for profit, but I do know of one major VW aftermarket retailer who was almost out of business soon after this all started to happen, as they had almost no product to legally sell.
Mark
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Volkswagen America has obtained trademark protection for any image of the new beetle. I know first hand that they were able to force RebelArtist.com to remove several EPS vector line drawings of that vehicle model from their offerings.
It isn't even safe to draw something in our freedom loving land anymore.
Posted by Mike Clayton Graphics (Member # 723) on :
I know in alot of my dealing with race car customers that have sponsors. I will only reproduce a logo with a letter of permission from the company. I have done this with NAPA, Parts Plus, Snap On, and a few others. they are usually good about giving permission, through the company or rep that sponsors the car.
Without that letter of permission/;icense, i would not do it.
MC
Posted by Steve Barba (Member # 431) on :
If Joe Bloe wanted his motorcycle repair shop sign to include the Harley logo, I would not do it without permission. When Sturgis Harley wants a sign, I reproduce the logo no sweat.
I am constantly approched to reproduce all kinds of cartoon charcters on all kinds of items. I do them without hesitation, my take on this is they are not on mass produced items, or being used in advertising a business.
There is a used car dealer here that has had Bart Simpson on its main sign for at least 10 years. With all of the tourist trade we get here, I can't believe that no one has sent him a cease and desist.
There is a bail-bondsman here that uses Speedy Gonzales in its full page yellow pages ad. I am having a hard time believing that he, the ad agency, or the phone book has permission.
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
It's not a matter of absolute right/wrong. If Lotti puts "Chevrolet" on a Chevy truck, that could be restoration. Or advertising for Chevrolet. Were GM to try to restrict that, that argument would be advanced.
As for making multiple copies only to sell, I'd listen to the folks here who know about the Holy Logo of Harley-Davidson. "In the Beginning was the Logos." Good lord.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
To Sam I Am!
Will you copy the product.. I have Drawn First! "Will You?"
Lets post a Drawing or Two! Between Us.
Will you say that this is your Own..
Or will you "Show your own worth on Something New? Did I draw this Image First? Yes!
Or does your dollar interest make it a ("TICK"on the"Back of Someone Else") That You can "Take for a Design.....I did this One
I have to say that I made the Idea!!!! ((((MANY!!))))
You only want the...(He Rides the Wave)
Show us something that is more than is not done before!
Your designs will make Interest for Future Jobs..
[ October 30, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ive cut the harley logo, dodge ram, ford, chevy,etc etc.....for the right people and for one offs to people who just wanted a logo to hang on their garage wall. and ive done em for the people who have the right to use the logo(i do little league field signs). ive been caught doing a "garfield"(jim davis)...by DIK BROWN(hagar the horrible creator & next door neighbor of jim davis)heck of a way to meet someone famous. i called the YELLOW PAGES cause a guy wanted the "walking fingers" on his truck, bigger then the phone company decal.....i was told DO NOT REPRODUCE OR ELSE!!!! did some EASYRIDER signs and called the company.....only to find out those who ordered the signs...were not ALLOWED to have logo. on the other hand ive done ROCKY N' BULLWINKLE, TAZ, BUGS, TWEETY, and other on race cars for money....but these were never big time racers. my moral issue is to eat and live.....those who ask for and pay me to produce things they like/want....weather its a MONA LISA(yea ill paint you one, it wont be cheap and i will not put my name on it)but you will have a good copy!!! aint that what most of us do? FONTS: everytime you use one thats a copy, a cross, an arrow, a hand with a finger pointing..........
Posted by Signs By Sam (Member # 425) on :
Alright...some of your posts are as though I will be the one reproducing the logo. I will not .....I probably gave that innuendo with the opening post.
The Logo belongs to the Company that I now own. It is a family company and the logo / decal has been and is being used at this date for profit. It was designed and implemented in 1958.
It was brought to my attention that it is being reproduced and being sold.
I appreciate the fact that people do have an interest in my business and wish to benefit from it as do I. I have never authorized nor given permission for the artwork to be reproduced except to my silk screener, and only for garments printed for give aways / profit.
Now with some clarification, let's see where we go
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
you wan i should come up there and fixa it for you?...hey pizian???? or shoulda we call cousin "vinny"...hehehehehehehehehehhe
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
OP’s gonna fixa it??? I think he’s the one that’s been a sellin’ ‘em.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Sam, I think if you really want to continue gathering opinions on this question with the new information you just revealed, you should start a new topic.
I know I spend a lot of time here,(way too much, I somnetimes fear) & I like checking out new topics. I don't always have time to check out the old ones that pop back up briefly, so I imagine that is true for many others as well.
quote:Now with some clarification, let's see where we go
If you would just clarify a little further... you could email the vector file to email link shown on my post, & we'll see where we go
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