Another crazy project has come up. I have an Army tank in the shop today that was painted with flat black epoxy. Very porous and rough surface. The police department needs to have the lettering in flat grey tones. They want it to be very subdued. I started to mix the paint and use some Chromatic flattening paste, but it is not flattening out enough. Also worried about the chaulking problems with lettering paint now days.
I ran a letterhead search and found several topics with advice about, A.using flat clears over the lettering enamels or, B.using flattening agents like Nazdar makes, C.Baby poweder, and many other suggestions. The idea of chalking later makes me nervous. The surface is really- really porous and I will have to use fitches to letter on it, so automotive paints are out,( no masking. )
I didn't see anything mentioned about possibly using exterior flat latex paint. (many have suggested that for signs lately) Would this work on a vehicle also? Would it be better just to use a flat clear over the top of lettering enamel? If so, what brand is compatable? Or would the Nazdar flattening paste in the One Shot apply alright to such a rough and porous surface?
Not much time for experiments, so I was hoping someone may have dealt with a similar project before and could let me know the results and longevity of the job. Formulas have changed so much in paints, it seems like we can't go by the old rules. I thought about adding baby powder like some of the old timers use to do, but afraid there will be chaulking to deal with.
Any ideas or stories of past experiences would be greatly apreciated.
Thank you Pam Pam's Signs
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Hi Pam,
Pete Payne from Canadian Signcrafters (merchants here) told me about flattening powder. It is important to stir it really, really well, and then strain it before you paint. Straining seems to get the little bits of powder out that may cause chalking. I've used it a few times, and haven't noticed any chalking at all. (but then again, I've only used it a few times. There may be people with way more experience in this matter, just my two cents).
Suelynn
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
The trick to using flattening powders is....make a paste first!
1. Thin down a little bit of paint and add it to the powder. 2. Work it until it is smooth. 3. Slowly add full strenght paint to the paste, while stirring.
This way you will not get any lumps or chunks.
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
Use 1-shot poster paint. I've used it on wall murals. 8 years later the paint is still good. If your surface is so porous there will be no problem with taking the 1-shot. saves a lot of time mixing powders or overcoating. And if the tank is in your shop now you will finish it in time for Friday night beers. No need to worry about coming in on Saturday morning to do more. Enjoy your hangover!!!!!
Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Si I think I should use your advice also when making powdered sugar glaze for donuts. I always get lumps.
I have some old Chromatic flattening paste, it's old and had a thick skin over the top. Not sure how good it is. Where do you get the flattening powder?
Suelynn, I will strain this mixture good and following Si's direction on mixing.
What I really want to do this afternoon is crawl into this army tank, pull the lid shut and take a nap ( and hide from the world). Too much stress for one day.
Just been really worried about the additives to the paint and what may happen in the long run.
Thank you for your replies.
Pam
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
Do it the EASY WAY and get cans of flat white and black "Rustoleum" (sp?) from the hardware store. Mix your grey and paint.
OR, go th your local paint store and get 'em to mix you up a can of flat grey exterior water based house paint.
Forget about messing with pastes or varnishes. Why make this more difficult than necessary?
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
its supposed to look military right? go get a set of stencils!!!! tape the letters you need together, get some flat gray spray can paint....and job done!!! if it dont look professional....it will be even better....as we always say when something is done, to not perfect standards...."its close enough for military work."
Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply to this post. I appreciate all the information. OP, I don't know what we would do without you. Always enjoy your viewpoint on these post.
Thanks again everyone, Pam
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
baby powder and lots of it worked for me once!
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
In the screenprinting business, we used to use a flattening powder called Cab-o-sil (I think)...added at about 4-5% by weight, it would give a dead flat finish. We would mix it into our thinner first, stir well, then add the mix to the ink. Never heard of chalking.
Posted by Darryl Gomes (Member # 98) on :
I have always used flattening powder in my paints and also to flatten the sheen on "Frog" or 1-shot UV clear. I mix 4 oz to a quart of paint and stir with a "peg board hook" in my cordless drill. Lots and lots of mixing. I have a lid with a hole in it that the shaft of the peg board hook slides through, so when you mix with the drill the paint doesn't splash all over. I haven't had a problem with chalking or patchy gloss or flat spots since I started using this method. Mixing the powder to a paste first sounds like a good idea also.
[ October 18, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Darryl Gomes ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Pam, Cool post. Lots of intersting techniques here.
Though I've never had a similar situation, I did wonder how I'd tackle it.
A few auto parts places here carry areosol primers in a few different shades of grey which would be dull and still have some good bite to the Epoxy finish on the tank. Some even have brushable primers.
I like OP's idea. Most military vehicles have been quickly sprayed with stencils and would look authentic done that way. A mask and spray job all the way.
The roughness of the surface does pose a problem if you need a crisp edge on the lettering, and I can't think of a mask that would help on that, other than a liquid mask. Very expensive and makes using a Fitch look like the way to go.
Me? I'd mix some One Shot to a shade darker than I need it and hand paint it. While it was still tacky, I'd hit it with a big old pounce bag full of white baby powder and a crushed charcoal stick ground up and mixed to the shade of grey I need. I'd be overgenerous with it and really bang it into the paint so it gets a good grip to it. (the dust would be flying... ) After that, a foam brush to lightly smooth out the dust and knock off the loose stuff or a blast with an air hose on a low pressure setting from a few feet away to get into the rougher parts in the surface.
The paint would give you both bite to the epoxy paint and a color base that would remain consistant, and the dust would also have a pretty consistant color over all and effectively dull the finish. A quick test on a piece of scrap wood or metal would be fairly easy to prove it out. I'd wait a couple of days and hit it with a hose and cold water, then run my space heater at it to see how it would hold up against mother nature.
Now that I've shown my thinking process on this one, I suspect the Letterville police will be arriving shortly, straight jackets in hand, to come cart me off.
hehe By the way, I sure hope the crime rate isn't so bad that the PD actually needs a tank for local patrols!
Wonder what i'm gonna be when I grow up..... Rapid
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hahahahahaaa....Ray...I see that you have applied to enter tha "Scooter Institute of Applied Graphics"!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
hahahahahahaha
Ok, Si, you got it. "It could work" now let's see if'n it do.
I'm gonna do a test out in the shop on a hunk of MDO painted black I have out there. Space heater's all fueled up and ready to go.
Results to be posted Sunday, October 19th by 7 PM.
bye bye Rapid
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Ok, so I'm a bonehad. Let the dispersions begin!!!!
Nice mess out in the shop, though...
One good thing did happen...I used a cheap roller and got a pretty good simulated "Tank surface". Bagging each coat of black while it was still tacky looked kinda cool.
Never know when you need a bumpy sign... Rapid
PS: Si, do I get one of Scooter's diplomas now, or should I just be content in the "self inflicted tounge whoopin'" I just gave myself out in the shop?
Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Thanks everyone for your time and ideas on this post.
Ray, I'm impressed with the amount of time and thought you have put into this situation. The surface of the tank is like 600 grit sandpaper that has been paint with black woodstove type paint.
I'm not sure what the local police department has in mind for this vehicle, but I know they may need to loan it to the neighbors to the northern end of the county. Benton Harbor made national news (again) this summer with their riots. Rev Jesse Jackson has been spending a lot of time there since the rioting this summer. It gets pretty ugly sometimes there.
Anyway, I really appreciate the help. I seem to learn something new everytime I come here.
![[FYI]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
) After that, a foam brush to lightly smooth out the dust and knock off the loose stuff or a blast with an air hose on a low pressure setting from a few feet away to get into the rougher parts in the surface.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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