Several months ago, I tried to wiggle my way into a land developer's circle to build his sub-division signs.
Two months ago he called and had me bid on a project making 3 sandblasted signs for one of his new housing subdivisions.
When I went to look at the plans, the signs sketches were on fax paper copies, and of poor quality. I didn't think a thing about it and wrote out a quote.
I got the job. Then I was called back in to pick up some additional art work and they gave the original art work of the designed signs.... straight from another sign shop with the copyright notice in force and plainly in view.
I mentioned this to them, and they could have cared less. So I took the artwork back to the shop and did nothing...for two months! ----
In the meantime, one of my faithful old customers had me design a box truck layout with his logo and some idea changes...and because of his past loyalty I let him keep the design. Then my father passed and I called him and told him I would be back in a week and get started on his truck. When I got back, the truck was lettered exactly like my proposal. I knew who did it. And you guessed right... it was the sign shop that did the sub-divbision sandblasted artwork with full claims of copyrights.
I took their sandblasted sign sketches back to them (the sign shop) while the land developer was calling twice a week wondering about his signs and what I was doing. I kept ignoring the calls. I was angry inside.
I asked them if I should go ahead and do this job, their job, off their sketch. "Why put a copyright on your artwork if you didn't care about assinging the same honor and respect to others? This has to stop!"
I gave them back their sketches and said I was not going to pursue this client anymore because of the dishonesty and disreguard of all involved. So they called the land developer to renegotiate the bid, and the land developer called me next and gave me an ear full vile things not mentionable even here!
So, I pass this on to anyone who cares to debate that they feel they have to give out a free sketch in order to entice the customer to give them their work. Times have changed and even the most loyal of customers are just warped in ethics and morals.
I told the other sign shop owners that from now on, all sketches they get in their shop from me is ok to do, because the customer will have paid dearly for the sketch up front. They would be wise to do the same and end this nonsense.
One thing we learn in BNI is "what comes around, goes around." Everyone is a loser in this situation, no one wins. Eventually this dishonesty will come back to haunt them. I can hold my head up and go forward. I should never have let this situation go on for so long, and I harbored some hateful feelings in my heart. I had the chance to get even, and could have, but at what cost and for what purpose?
My advice is to adopt some kind of system in your shop that addresses this age old problem and makes it a win-win situation for everyone. Letting your guard down for even an instant, with a friend, a long time proven trusted client, can have horrible outcome.
What could have been done, what should have been done is not the intent of this post, nor to generate sympathy. Please view it as a scenerio you might like to avoid.
[ October 17, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I don't know why some people don't get it, but they just don't sometimes. When I get a client with a sketch from elsewhere, who seems to be the "just-don't-get-it" type, I will explain my feelings about this, possibly in terms more relevant to their trade. I would try not to belittle them in the process.
What I wouldn't do is take the drawings w/o a word to them on the matter, & then go & bust them to the other shop. I agree that your scenario had no winners (unless the other guy finally got their price w/o any competitive bids ) but I just wonder if you had to alienate you client that way. If the shoe was on the other foot... & I, for some reason, was the clueless one shopping the competitions drawings around angling for a better price, & you accepted these drawings from me, then I found out from the other guy that you went complaining to him... well I can see why he might have not appreciated that if he really didn't "get it" that what he did was uncool. We just have to educate people sometimes, & it seems like a waste of time sometimes, but it could be better then alienating someone, perhaps forever.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
The owner of another local sign shop did a drawing for a battign box... He didnt get the job..... He drove by and saw the same art work at the batting box and promptly sued the hell out of them the owner..... He won and got paid ,,,,, Why not? he did the drawing,,, Why not he was willing and able to do the work.. The other sign shop just did it way cheaper. HAH! the owner had to pay twice,, And, the other painter is now out of bizz,
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Dave, We get the same thing going on here, it is insane.
Another way to handle it, is to call the builder and explain that you know that another shop did the designs, and you would have to use you own layout because you wouldn't feel right using an other shops (copyrighted)designs. Otherwise you and him are open to legal problems.
As far as the box truck guy, that was a low blow. I don't know what has gotten into people lately.
I have the same things happening to me, loyal clients, suddenly shopping more & stealing designs. Maybe the bad economy has something to do with it? Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
So, you accept a job with a copyright notice on the artwork, sit on it for two months and do nothing, then play mickey mouse games between the other shop and the guy that needs the signs, and you still have to wonder why it all blew up in your face?
I'm not even gonna touch the one about the box truck, that issue has been beaten to death so many times here it's not even funny. Everyone should know better by now not to let artwork out the door without money in hand.
I don't buy in to customer loyalty. If I deal with a business and have a good experience with them, yeah I'll go back to them again if they produce quality.. but if they can't provide that quality within a reasonable time frame and without headaches (service) I won't hesitate to find someone else that can.
You're no longer indespensible when your services overlap with those that another business can offer, so you need to either stay on top and blow 'em away with service or create your own niche.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Dave,
Let me get this straight...
You try to "wiggle" in with a customer, they ask for a quote on a design. They fax you some artwork and you "got the job". You later find out someone else has copyrighted the design, bring it to the customers attention, and, despite thier obvious lack of concern, let the job sit around for two months. You later give a "loyal" customer a design and when they go to the competition, your solution is to confront them on the copyrights? Meanwhile, you continue to ignore calls from customer number one, who later finds out, from your competitor , after all this time, you are refusing the job because you feel they are not doing business correctly.
You're right, Dave. "What comes around, goes around." Rapid
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hmmmmmmm... Let's see...
You lost the box job to the shop that your client stole the drawings from, you lost the subdivision job back to the shop that had the drawing stolen from, your builder client you spent months working on is now a non-client because you blasted them for stealing the drawings.
Looks like the other shop got both jobs and the builder back and Draper the Signmaker got jack.
Dave, I am shaking my head here. You sat on that job for two months... why? There has to be another reason that box truck took off because they wouldn't wait a week due to a death in the family? Excuse me? If that is truly the case, then you are better off without buttheads like that. It just makes no sense to me.
This crap isn't a bad economy issue. It's a morals issue. I don't have time to tell you what I think about that.
Nice donut, though.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Last year I was called out to look at a jobsite for a sign system. Main ID sign, Directional and Parking signs.
The customer told me she had been working with another sign contractor before me. When she handed me some sketches from this other sign person, I didn't miss a beat in questioning how she left things with her previous business dealings and were the sketches paid for?
She told me the amount she paid the other shop for the design, and explained that, even though she liked the guy personally, she decided not to continue there because he had drug his feet way too long and she needed to move forward on the job. She said that he seemed too busy or distracted to deal with them anymore on this job.
Apparently, the clients wanted to see some changes done, and the other shop had probably become disinterested because of the time consumption of the actual selling process. This job was for an office building, and required the approval of 7 tenants. It's not always an easy task to please 7 people. I took a lesson here, before continuing down the road with this job.
I asked her if she would mind if I drew up different ideas, and she seemed delighted that I do. I requested a sketch deposit from her, and she obliged. I made sure she understood that I would be charging for design time, so it would be in their best interest to communicate their needs and wants to me clearly so we all could land on something sooner. She understood.
I took a few laps around with this group too, all the while charging for my sketch time, until we were able to settle upon something everyone liked.
Dave, I'm missing the point in your taking the job and then letting it sit. As did your customer. I think you would have done better to address the issue upon the first glance of the sketch, and then simply communicate with your customer.
The best way to deal with this stuff, is to make people aware of it, and accountable for it. But hey, talk to your customer, be clear, be polite and leave room for the benefit of doubt.
Nettie
Posted by Ryan E Young (Member # 2325) on :
It took you two months to figure out where your morals were? It seems you didn't have any until you got your truck job stolen. Why didn't you spend the two months redesigning the sign so it would blow is socks off. You slithered your way into his circle to try to pick up his work why not spend some more time on making this guy know you could handle this job.You could handle it couldn't you? Even if you didn't make the same profit you usually do wouldn't it have been smart to spend the extra time and effort to secure this customer not ambush him.I guess you had more important things to do. Nice Donut though
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
The thing you gotta get here is most all customers are a**holes. No two ways about it. Quality and design dont mean sh** to em, just the price. When the guy gave dave the sketch and he seen it was copyrighted, Dave should have told em he wouldnt work from another shops sketch, and offered to do one of his own, for a fee. Right then the guy probably would have went back to the other shop and that woulda been that. On the other issue, if your loyal customer couldnt wait until you and your family had time to grieve, he should have told you. You definitely need to sue his a** for this one. And do it face to face. Id walk into his business and tell him I was suing him for using my copyrighted artwork. That way if he gets smart you can also bust him in the chops. Wouldnt that feel good. I think it would.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
This is purely a case of "Bi-polar Circularity."
"What comes around, goes around"
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I'm old school, I find it's just too easy to be up front and honest with folks...all around. Beating around the bush often runs snakes out of hiding. The others have already pointed out your errors in letting something linger that should have been dealt with right away.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:When I went to look at the plans, the signs sketches were on fax paper copies, and of poor quality. I didn't think a thing about it and wrote out a quote.
Did you think he drew them up himself, then faxed them to himself? Or maybe they were a gift from the Faxed Sign Sketch Fairy?
quote:Then I was called back in to pick up some additional art work and they gave the original art work of the designed signs.... straight from another sign shop with the copyright notice in force and plainly in view......I took the artwork back to the shop and did nothing...for two months!
Did you think in those 2 months that the copyright notice was going to disappear from the sketches?
I'm not even going to touch the box truck f*$^-up cause that's just downright asinine on your end. Doesn't this go against "proper business procedure"? It seems to me that I remember this from a month or so ago...
quote:The proper way is to get the money out of the customer before the designing begins. There is no need to prove one's abilities or make a sketch to lure them in.!
Sound familiar?
quote:....the land developer called me next and gave me an ear full vile things not mentionable even here!
You didn't have the guts to tell him you refuse to do the job and you expected him to be nice to you after you sat on in for 2 months? Meanwhile he's waiting for his signs because he doesn't know there is a problem with you doing them, since you weren't upfront with him in the beginning and didn't educate him about copyright?
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Dave,
quote: What could have been done, what should have been done is not the intent of this post, nor to generate sympathy. Please view it as a scenerio you might like to avoid.
Right now, I don't think it's sympathy that's being generated by this post. A few shaking heads more likely.
In a scenario like this, the solution is simple...take a deposit. It serves two functions... You have an obligation to the client to fulfill your end the deal and it also ensures that the "client" has the same obligation to pay for the service in full when completed as well.
You don't "got it" until you do that.
So many times I see the word "customer" or "client" used in reference to someone who is inquiring prices, design ideas, etc. Until both parties make a commitment to the job, schedule it accordingly, agree on the design or any other complications associated to it, and a fair deposit to start the job with is in hand, the "possible" client or customer is not only free to go elsewhere, but is also fair game for the competition.
This whole "scenario" changes from that point forward. Had you taken a deposit for the land developer's signs, the solution is apparent. Based on what you wrote, it would be to settle the copyright problem. For the cost of a phone call or two, either getting the permission from the owner of the design or having the land guy do so makes all this avoidable. If neither was willing or able to do so, give the deposit back and move on.
Scenario avoided.
With words like "wiggled" and "lured" on this post, you might want to remember, despite how many times you may see folks post about the customer being the enemy, without any, ya wind up eating Mac & Cheese 7 days a week, shaking your head, wondering what happened to your "business".
You do not wanna know how I know this. It can have a lot higher costs than you know, believe me.
Nice donut. Rapid
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
So it went South this time. If something similar happens again, ask the client with the fax for the original designer's name so that you could gain permission to build the signs and find out how much it would be to compensate him for the designs so you could add it into your proposal. If the client with the fax objects use that time to educate him on ethics. For the loyal customer, put a standard notice on your sketch stating that the sketch is your property and its use by others will result in a fee from you. Make this a part of all sketches and run it through a portion of the sketch like a watermark so that the client gets the basics of the sketch and is not able to reproduce it without your name on it. E-mail the sketch (which is now your record for a court appearance if need be) and state that e-mail confirmation is your authorization to proceed. Then if you see your work done by others you can send him a bill with everything else being legitimate. Your biggest mistake here is probably letting this puppy sit for 2 months. Let things fester and they'll blow up and you may lose the respect of each client and other sign shops while burning all bridges.
We don't take or send faxes anymore. I think they're things of the past. E-mail attachments are superior because of their clarity and their color capabilities.
[ October 17, 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
quote:I mentioned this to them, and they could have cared less. So I took the artwork back to the shop and did nothing...for two months!
Looks to me like Dave DID have misgivings about the ethics of such unscrupulous dealings from the beginning. He "mentioned this to them" from the start and they ignored it's importance. That would perturb me too. I don't know why Dave sat on it for two months. Maybe Dave was going through a very emotionally difficult time because of the loss of his dad. Hey...been there, done that. Maybe some don't know what it's like to lose your hero...yet. Maybe Dave screwed up by sitting on it for two months....he knows that for crying out loud. Does that make what these unscrupulous bottom feeding sharks did right?
Dave, I found that the only way to solve the problem is to get a deposit...every time. If you depend on most people's integrity, morals, or conscience, they'll let you down for sure.
Get a deposit.
(edited typos)
[ October 17, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
You're killing me, Davey. First you took a job with somone else's copywrite on the design, don't do the job or deal with it "cause you are angry inside", then start sniveling because you couldn't do a truck lettering job when the customer wanted it, and lost that too - and to the shop who designed the first job. Now you go bellyaching about customers not being loyal? From where I sit you f****d this up one end to the other and back again. Gee, maybe this could be an article in the major sign magazine you write for.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
warning...i'm cranky!
i got 2 words for ya........... PEOPLE SUCK
plain and simply...i'm getting so sick of them by the day.... "you want to charge me for a sign and a design?"
what i'd like to say...."no dick wad, i have nothing better to do all day than doodle your pathetic ideas around to see if after a week and a day something blows up your skirt....now beat it before i poke your eyes out with my new fancy purple exacto!"
what i try to say...."your image is important...i create that....there's a fee for that....then you may want a sign or a truck lettered...there is also a fee for that"
(customer)blank stare.....................(nice bird cage where's the canary?)
tell ya what...why don't you go get yourself a little clue and maybe we can chat later when you take your head out of your a$$...and bring your checkbook.
i'm sorry...i just can't be nice today....i'll come back later........................
[ October 17, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
Posted by Rodney gold (Member # 4065) on :
If you commission someone to design for you , copywright does not reside in them despite the copywright logo they put on anything (unless specifically mentioned in a contract)
The design/photo/logo whatever is yours , even if you dont pay for it , the worst the originator can do is seek civil remedy for non payment. The original poster had in mind to "punish" the developer , however put himself in a really bad position as price was agreed on and a contract was entered into. In fact the developer can sue him if he had to pay more elsewhere for the same service.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Dave buddy, you apparently have ****ed in a few peoples gravy here on the board. I aint hearing rights or wrongs, but what I see is some strong words and sarcasm. Some do it all the time, but most dont. This seems like a personal thing to some of them. Or am I reading wrong?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I agree that the sarcasm many of us are capable around here can be hurtful sometimes. I also know that any of the other "regulars" aroung here can't help but know this already.
Dave, I was one of the first to take the opportunity to find fault with how you handled the situation instead of feeling any sympathy, & I will tell it took a little extra energy to be polite about it.
The reason your post is drawing sarcasm IMO is because you appear like this innocent happy-go-lucky guy listening to a different drummer & not really clued into the business world. If that is what you are, you may have recieved more sympathy... but dude as Kissy's post of your own words show... YOU KNOW BETTER!
So anyway, you walked into this leaving yourself so wide open for a flamefest, one almost wonders if this is some kind of social behavior experiment, because no one with as much knowledge of this industry & this BB could have expected any other response to this post.
anyway sarcasm is not all bad...
quote: ...Or maybe they were a gift from the Faxed Sign Sketch Fairy?
Kissy, that is a classic ROFLMAO comment that MADE MY DAY Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
I've seen this before.... have to ask... what is ROLFMAO??? Rolf Harris in China, circa 1972??
thanks, John / SignRider
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
rolling on floor laughing my a$$ off
[ October 17, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
Wow. I guess there are 2 lessons to learn here. 1- Get the money first. 2- If you didn't get the money don't let anyone here know.
"Faxed Sign Sketch Fairy." hehe Great one! That is too funny!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
This post is to Kool!
Karyn I got one picture for you... Remember it is someone elses property I got to go and get another beer as I read... I will be right back in about 2 months!
[ October 17, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
If Quality and Design don't mean anything to you, YOUR'RE IN THE WRONG SHOP. New sign for the back of my wall for all to see. Good idea Deaton!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Dave,
Thanks for the heads up on what NOT to do, although most of us know it, we sometimes get caught up in things and go back to our old ways.
I am guilty of just that as well, I try to remember each burn and put one more link in my chain armour.
I think most of the sarcasm and lack of sympathy, ( and I see you stated you werent actually looking for any) is because you recently posted on a subject of policies which if implemented would have prevented any of this to happen.
Sometimes we need to be reminded of our good intentions so you might want to reread your old post
Nasty, nasty, nasty! OK people - I think he got the message after the first couple of posts. The rest is just kicking a dog when it is down. Let it go please, and the streets of Letterville will be a happier place. Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Well Dave, I guess you should just blow your brains out! Seems like more people on this BB are having more of a problem with YOU than YOU are with your "customer"!
Posted by Mike Clayton Graphics (Member # 723) on :
Dave, sorry to hear what happened, but you should have the balls to stand up for yourself.
Rodney, I do not know what you do in South Africa, but here in the US of A we have laws, and intellectual copyright is one of them!
MC
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Davey,
I just read this post in full, and then read your intitial one again. Seems this time in reading yours has shown me that you have learned some lessons by this situation, and were attempting to share them to pass the lessons along. Not sure if you edited some, or if I missed some the first time.
Either way, I suspect that next time around you won't let your emotions rule or immobilize the situation quite so much.
You know, I'm wondering if anyone is learning anything on this post besides ... "boy, Dave sure was a dufous here".
I reread my reply to see if I might have come off condescendingly. Though that wasn't my intention, I think I may have. Just wanted to relay an experience that had some relationship to what Dave had here, and to shed some light on how I dealt with it. For right or wrong ... mainly for learning value.
Maybe we could turn this post around abit by perhaps sharing some similar experiences relating to this issue of being presented with other shop's designs. We can learn from each other's customer dealings .... even by each other's mistakes. We all make'm ... right?
If folks felt that they would be ridiculed by admitting their failings on here, it would be a shame. We can learn to better ourselves, thru each other's experiences ... good or bad.
Oddly enough, it's the bad ones (school of hard knocks) that really smart us up quick. Have you ever noticed that?
Okay, so here's another angle to consider. If you are presented with another person's shop, why is it your responsibility to see to it that the other shop did indeed get paid for that sketch design? I mean, yes we can inquire about the circumstances for which that sketch came about, and then act according to the response we get. But heck, wouldn't it just be in all of our best interest to get a sketch deposit first?, ... and just not let a sketch walk without a fee?
I've come to the conclusion long ago that I don't want to work for free, and any customer who expects me to is being unreasonable. Producing a sketch is not only working, but if you think about it, that sketch IS the sign! So therefore, why would I or anyone consider working and actually creating the roadmap for a sign without pay? Furthermore, why should it be my business if another shop does? If everyone would just work for pay, this wouldn't even be an issue. No?
We each have a business, we each get to make our own rules, and we gotta cover our own butts.
hahaaaa... and we each need to keep in mind that profit is not a dirty word! Nettie
Posted by Rodney gold (Member # 4065) on :
What Is Not Protected By Copyright Ideas, Methods, or Systems are not subject to copyright protection. Copyright protection, therefore, is not available for: ideas or procedures for doing, making, or building things; scientific or technical methods or discoveries; business operations or procedures; mathematical principles; formulas, algorithms; or any other concept, process, or method of operation.
The drawing/concept of a sign surely falls into the ideas and procedures of making or building something?
Apart from that , imagine If someone commissioned you to do a logo for them and you claimed intellectual copyright and stopped them using that logo???
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Rodney, I think you're confusing creation and idea. To sketch out a sign is a creation and would fall under the catagory of created art which is copyrighted.
Example, I write a song, it is written on paper. Someone takes my song, copies it, sells it to a record company and they make a CD out of it. Now in your way of thinking, that song I wrote is simply an idea. I did not record it, there is no finished product other than the paper that the notes and lyrics were written on. So in South Africa, my song, written on paper, equal to a sketched sign which has not been built, is free game for anyone?
In this country that would not fly. Many songs and art ideas have been stolen, and the courts have rewarded the artists compensation for such theft. If South Africa's laws are as you say, I wouldn't want to be an artist there.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: I'm wondering if anyone is learning anything on this post besides ... "boy, Dave sure was a dufous here".
"you learn somthing new everyday" I learned how to spell dufous Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
hahahahaa... Doug, don't count on it. I didn't look it up! Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :
I am such a doofus that I've spelled it wrong all these years.......
from Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: doo·fus Pronunciation: 'dü-f&s, -fis Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural doo·fus·es /-f&-siz/ Etymology: perhaps alteration of 1goof Date: 1970 slang : a stupid, incompetent, or foolish person
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Rodney,
The following link is to the United States Copyright Office. It has a great deal of information on what does and does not constitute protection of copyrights.
Copyright claims are disputes. The proper way to address those claims is to contact a repituble lawyer with copyright litigation experience about your claim.
Typically, the lawyer will inform the other involved business/businesses, by letter, of your intention to pursue settlement or enforcement of your copyrights. In a most cases, the notification by the laywer often is enough to make the opposing party aware of thier misuse of the copyright and a fair settlement is reached without having to go through litigation. They settle out of court.
Should the case reach a hearing, both parties risk not only winning, but losing as well. Most companies or creators of copyrighted materials consider the expense of a court proceding economically and, again, will seek to settle without futher court appearances. In some cases, the judge of the hearing will make a determination if the outcome of further court actions is apparent, and determine a settlement.
Unfortunately, in Dave's case, although he recognized the copyrights of the competitor, the person who wanted the 3 sandblasted signs did not and openly stated he was not concerned. Had Dave sided with the customer, with full knowledge of the copyright ownership, and produced the signs, both he AND the land developer would have been open to litigation by the other sign company. I have no doubt Dave's regognition of the other companies copyright was genuine.
In the matter of the box truck, Dave stated that the design he created was a variation of another design the cutomer had already been using. Although he did release his design to the customer, it would still be protected and he could pursue it if he feels the changes were enough to fit the copyright criteria, legally.
Despite Dave's awareness of the copyright issues and, in all honesty, his respect for the other sign businesses copyrights was correct. Unfortunately, the land developer was never informed that the design could not be reproduced without permission of the other sign company.
The best (IMHO) course in this particular scenario Dave presents in the original post, would have been to inform the customer of the need to contact the other sign company for permissions. Special emphasis on the word need. If the developer did not recognize the validity of Dave's position, it would be a dead end and no longer a safe job for Dave to pursue.
Dave, In the past I have had several dealings with copyrights. Most notably when I created a design for one company I worked for in 1984 which went to a hearing. Fortunately, the decision went to my employer and was dismissed. The judge determined that the plaintiff did not have an arguable case and dismissed it.
A nearby competitor produced a similar design and was also taken to a hearing a week later. The decision cost him over $10,000. The plaintiff in both cases was NFL Properties.
Although the owner of the other shop, two years younger than I, had gone to the same school and studied commercial art from many of the same teachers, the one we did not have in common taught me about the importance of copyrights as a sophomore. That education, and the man from which I recieved a invaluable wealth of knowledge from at an early age, was the difference between the cases years later.
This post took a while to work on. Hopefully it will do some good sometime for someone who reads it.
Thank you Nettie for reminding me what being Letterhead really means.
Hope I did my teacher proud on this one. His name was Edward Wozniak. My mentor, my teacher, my friend.
Rapid
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
But Ray.
Dave as already stated that he sat for 2 months on the outgoing project..
If I saw the design,the next question out of my mouth whould have been..By phone or person to person. Were was it done? and do you own rights to reproduce the Image?
If not then.. Lets set up a fee for my sketches.
Dave sorry about the lose of your family member and don't even sweat the customer with the Box Truck.. Sounds like the guy that want to be the first one at the crash scene!!!!!!!! One of these Rush Job ordeals.. Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I just messed myself up recently. I was working on quoting a illuminated sign for a new customer that was moving a few doors down. This customer was moving into a newly old building that was currently being revamped and was to have multiple tenants. This new customer put my in touch with the owner of the big building. He wanted a quote for a 15'x8' marquee sign. He was going to see if the new tenants wanted this instead and would be willing to comtribute their fair share.
The customer wanted a quote and of course I couldn't quote it without a design. I was building good rapport and thought that I had this job in my pocket. I didn't even think of asking for a design fee and that he might want to get other quotes. I worked up a couple of designs in Corel, printed them out and took them to him to see which way that he wanted to go. Now keep in mind I new that I was the only one in the area that does big signs like this. Mistake #1.
I didn't print them out on anything that had our name or copyright law on it. Mistake #2.
I took them to the customer, he looked at them and couldn't decide which he liked better. He quickly ran off with both designs to get opinions from some of his employees, he said. Right after he dissappeared through all the subcontractors working on the building, I got a funny feeling. I walked off after him but couldn't find him. He quickly appeared outside the building headed back in my direction. He told me which he liked and wanted me to work up a price with a few changes.
I make a long story shorter, I called every couple of days to see if he was ready to go with it and the last day he told me that my biggest competitor came in $1000.00 cheaper and that he was going to throw in the graphics for the tenants. Needless to say I was flabbergasted. I then told him that I owned the designs and that no one could use them. He told me that the other shop changed the top of the sign and quoted it that way.
I am still dumbfounded at my lack of studipity of learning to not print designs out on anything but letterhead with a copyright quote on it. I thought that I was safe because I wasn't going to give the designs to him....I was just letting him see them.
Maybe this will be the final time. Maybe I will finally think realize that I am in that class of professionals that get a fee up front before any work is done.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Well,Laura, I figure we all do this from time to time, in one way or another, whether we want to admit it or not. Every time it happens, we all get that sinking feeling of "I knew better".
My Daddy used to tell me that, "No one can screw you unless you let them."
Funny, the older I get, the smarter Dad was.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Laura, it takes a strong person to admit their mistakes. It takes a smart one to do it 38 posts down in someone elses thread instead of as a topic in itself. Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I talked with one of my customers today that teaches Law at University of Michigan (I am doing a sandblasted redwood). I told him of my dilema and he was going to ask around as he was inexperienced in copyright. I told him that I was going to take the designs and mail them to myself and not open them so that I would have a date established. He thought that was a great idea.
While getting the prints out of the folder, I noticed that I did print something about Vision Graphics owned the artwork until purchased by customer. Whewww!!!!!!!!
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Wow! This reminds me of the National Geographic Channel. You know, where a bunch of jackels form a pack and go after the wounded lion and rip his throat out.
Let's face it: Hypocrisy is a global human trait...not one that resides with a few select people.
So when people start quoting other people's past words of wisdom in an attempt to discredit them all the while trying to present themselves as superior business people shows an arrogance of immense proportions.
Is anyone in this forum a millionaire? I doubt it...and if they were they wouldn't need this forum for advice.
Now I don't know Dave...but he sure looks like a pleasant guy. I don't recall him trying to drag anyone down the road from his car bumper. Why try and gut him from @$$hole to belly button with a dead deer antler?
Now, scurry along and find a post of me quoting someone in an argument so you can prove me a hypocrite...I almost guarantee you'll find one. Yes, I'm a recovering hypocrite...welcome to my club.
Posted by Devin Fahie (Member # 3961) on :
I had a local contractor come in for a "Fancy" job lettering his truck. After speaking to him for a few days I felt comfortable with him and gave him our artwork to show his wife. A few days later I saw his truck roll by with my artwork, ahhhh... it gets worse. He had the you know whats to call me a few weeks later to ask for a crapy pair of mags like nothing ever happened. I trust no one for less than 50% anymore! Sorry honest people!!!
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) but I just wonder if you had to alienate you client that way. If the shoe was on the other foot... & I, for some reason, was the clueless one shopping the competitions drawings around angling for a better price, & you accepted these drawings from me, then I found out from the other guy that you went complaining to him... well I can see why he might have not appreciated that if he really didn't "get it" that what he did was uncool. We just have to educate people sometimes, & it seems like a waste of time sometimes, but it could be better then alienating someone, perhaps forever.
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