I've got my first laptop on it's way to Florida and was just daydreaming about uses for it, when this idea popped into my head.
Some of you may have checked out the little step by step I put together a couple weeks ago for sketching directly on your monitor via a Wacom digital tablet. If not, and your interested, this idea will make more sense if you go back and read it.
It's generally thought to be a bad idea to do a layout on a computer while the customer is watching. The average person doesn't understand that that sketch took 20 years and 15 minutes to do, NOT 15 minutes. They'll get the impression that the process is too easy and think they're getting charged more than they should for the design. When I'm meeting with a customer, I will usually just do some rough sketches on paper to get a handle on the customer's wishes and to make sure we're on the same page. The idea is to use only the freehand pencil tool to draw thumbnails...NOT using the pen tools to refine the shapes.
Using a laptop, plus a digital tablet, when meeting with a customer, would accomplish the same thing, while making the sketching process a lot faster and easier. Rough sketch some layout ideas and pop in some typestyles (or for you youngin's, "fonts" ) over the rough computer pencil sketch.
It seems that this would accomplish the sketches, give the customer and yourself an excellent idea of where the layout is going, plus...the sketch is IN your computer (no printout for your customer to ask for so he/she can shop the design around). After the customer is gone, or after you're back at the shop, refining the sketch should take only a few minutes...or at least not very long.
It seems to me that this approach would allow you to use your computer to work out a layout in your customer's presence, without giving your customer the impression that a finished layout is 'easy'.
This is just a thought, and I'd appreciate anybody's input , particularly to expand on the idea.
(PS. If you're meeting with the customer in the shop, of course you wouldn't need the laptop. Thinking of uses for my new laptop was just where the idea came from.)
[ September 07, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
I usually try to get as many clues as possible when I meet w. a client, and make a quick pencil sketch to determine some design "direction". Later, the puter is great for having them see (and spec) color schemes. And other necessary tweaks.
The client doesn't get to see all of the variations I messed with on the unit, usually just the ONE that I want to do. (And know is best for their needs.)
Yo Don, what kind of new laptop are you getting?
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
My wacom tablet has the same footprint size as my laptop, and slips right into the same slot in my laptop bag.. a step ahead of ya here.. Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Don,
The proper way is to get the money out of the customer before the designing begins. There is no need to prove one's abilities or make a sketch to lure them in.
The graphic designers we deal with have a policy that a contract must be signed and a retainer up front.
Since designs and prototype work is all they do, they would never get paid if they designed first and then expected to get a check. They can't run a business that way.
All you have to do is have a sign in plain view that says estimates are freely given, and a minimum deposit of $?? is required for further consultation and design sketches. Simple. The customer knows right up front how things work. If they are not ready to commit, they'll walk out and you wont waste your time.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Thanks for setting me straight, Dave.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
What do you consider to be a fair minimum design fee?
I still find myself struggling mentally to charge what a design is worth even though it may have only taken a few minutes to do.
I did a logo design for a client a couple weeks ago. I tracked my time on it. I spent less than 15 minutes on it because it came to me so easily.
My shop rate is $70 per hour and I charged him $100 for the design.
The business side of me tells me I didn't charge enough. My "be nice" of me tells me that I gouged him.
My customers aren't the problem. I am.
[ September 07, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Glen...don't ask me, ask Draper the SignMaker.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Sheesh Glenn, $100 for a logo? Sounds like you left a couple thousand on the table! (sneer)
Seriously though, one good thing came about as a result of the So.Big worm.. I was checking the email addresses the emails were coming from, and I spotted this web domain on one of them.. turns out, I think they have some fair pricing and a good concept.. they offer several packages with different price levels, and they require full payment up front before they start.. you could snag their wording and adapt it.. I think I will.
Thanks Mike. I like the concept. The only thing that concerns me is the "unlimited revisions." But, it gives me some great ideas as I am in the process of revamping our lobby area.
[ September 07, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I think what Don is talking about is the doodling you do while talking with a client.. the quick thumbnails you do to make sure you're on the same page. Not the fullblown layout that some people here obviously have to pay a graphic designer for.
Good idea Don. Not only is it much more professional to do that doodling on the laptop instead of a bar napkin, you've also saved yourself the work of having to take that napkin sketch & put it into the computer.
Don't take it personal Don. There are just some people here who are so arrogant they can't believe someone other than themself could have a good idea.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Don
at first I didnt think the same as you about drawing on the laptop in front of the customer, I automatically think pencil and paper,
but after rereading your post I have agreed to be open minded and try to master this frisbee with a tail hahaha.
[ September 07, 2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Chris, I know...and I didn't.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Don and Kissy,
I was not being arrogant. This is just a fact of proper business proceedure. We have have a professional business consultant that has helped us straighten things out so the business runs smooth and proper. I really thought I was being helpful, not critical. I'm passing on information that I paid for, so others could benefit.
I'm sorry you took the comments the wrong way.
Your thoughts and comments I value. This is a great topic.
-----------
Glenn,
As far as charging for design and logo work and what to charge, it seems to me, my opinion, is that some design work should fall under a minimum fee catagory, and others much more than minimum.
The design layout on a van, for instance, for a company that has a logo may take 1/2 hour to render. Coming up with a whole new logo takes longer. Putting together a whole package for the client takes a great deal of time.
It would be nice if we could have a menu hanging in our shop listing /showing different design levels and projected minimum costs. I haven't figured out how to do it.
The designers we work with, mentioned above, sell a complete package. This would include not only developing the logo, but providing camera ready art for newspaper adds, flyers, web sites and whatever. Thats why they can get so much more money. And coupled with the fact they SELL themselves as GRAPHIC DESIGNERS. Clients don't walk in their doors, they have meetings and consultations in board meetings. They golf together and smooze with the clients at diner parties. They live in the same upscale neighborhoods. Their kids go to school together and they are on the PTAs and PTOs together, along with working together for local Chamber fundraising events.
The irony is that the sign designers are much better in design skills than many graphic artists, but, it doesn't seem to matter.
Posted by Golden (Member # 164) on :
Don, Just for grins, you might want to read my latest article in Sign Craft. The gist of the article is to simplify and streamline the sales effort, instead of complicating it. As always, the articles are just my observations and not necessarily right for everyone.
When time was a critical element for us at the old shop, I can say we didn't do sketches past thumbnail concept sketches with a customer anywhere near me. I wanted to get the information, general theme and size and get out of there. Once we agreed on a specific budget range, and the customer agreed to pay for the sign, I felt comfortable taking the extra time making actual sketches...but not until then. I usually walked out with a 50% deposit, too. I wrote a few articles on that topic over the years for SC, if you are interested in reading them. Again, not necessarily right for all, but it reflects what Dave Draper was trying to explain.
There IS a change your concept of taking a computer and tablet with you to every customer site walk will work for you, but I am personally guessing it will backfire on you over the longer haul. I hope you try it and prove me wrong. Besides the lugging of the computer around issue, I think you might end up having to show some of the customers all 500 font choices loaded on your computer instead of showing them two or three of your choice. You might eventually have to add color, and more color, and more outlines on some project sales. And lastly, opposite of your concept, I believe you will illustrate that it really only takes a computer loaded with a bunch of fancy fonts to make signs (yeah right). You might initially look very professional, but I always like to spend some quality quiet time in the process of designing--including the option of reviewing my morgue and other inspirational devices. Being creative "on the spot" is much harder for me, and that is the scenario you are setting up for yourself here.
Believe me, I am open to new concepts, but I think this one might have some unseen holes that can only be highlighted by actually doing it a few times. I suspect it will go great on a few attempts, and horribly bad on a few. Instead of a quick sales pitch, you could be tied up hours. So, do it and let me know!
Sincerely, Mike Jackson
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
The only value I see in bringing a laptop to a clients location would be to show him/her your porfolio.
My lifetime spent in this business has taught me to never let the client get anywhere near my computer or involved in the design process.
The few times I have, I have regretted doing so.
Impress them with your design skills and knowledge not with technology...
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
One time I took my laptop to see a customer 55 miles away, through heavy city traffic. I wanted to be able to close the deal on that visit rather than drive back out there again.
Of course, that is when my normally reliable Dell took a hiatus on everything. It had battery issues, it had photo import issues, it had font issues. I spent most of my time fiddling with the computer. Feeling the pressure of the mounting disappointments and escaping time, I had creativity issues and was not able to come up with anything worthwhile.
I finally had to give up, go back to my office to work on it and email the quote. I didn’t get the job.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I've used my laptop as a sales tool in the past.
I've done the "sketch on the fly" thing..
I've done the "let the customer scroll through a bazillion fonts" thing...
I've done the "ahh CRAP, the battery is dead" thing..
I even took the laptop outside on a sunny day once.. D'OH!! (Can't see the screen in Arizona sun)
I wouldn't say the laptop has hurt the ability to make sales, and either way you go you're still gonna be lugging around some type of portfolio, whether it's a book or a laptop.
I won't sketch on the fly anymore, I tend to look at a blank computer screen and go "Duh.. what do I do".. I'm more comfortable with a pencil and paper, so I take a sketch pad but even then I usually only write down job details.
No more scrolling through fonts or letting customers watch me work.. it just consumes more time when it should only take 5 minutes.
If I take the laptop with me it's to show off my work to those neanderthal cavepeople that still don't have a computer at their business, but now I take the power cord. I also have a Portfolio CD ROM I take to customers that do have computers at their businesses, I can leave the laptop at home and they can keep the CD for future reference.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
just to get a little back on track, in case a few have been thrown off... Don's idea has NOTHING to do with a laptop. He happened to think of the "sketch with a tablet" idea when he was planning a trip with a laptop, not an outside sales call.
If someone comes in your office & you want to do some quick sketchs to get "on the same page" your computer is right there... that doesn't trap you into showing off 500 fonts, or spending an extra half hour any more then Don's idea does.
Many of us learned the hard way, some (like me)still are, and most of the rest will still have to learn how wasteful it can be to let the client get involved in the design process, but the thumbnail process is where their input is requested so you have a better chance of coming up with something suitable when you have got that deposit. Paper works fine, but I think Don's idea has merit too.
[ September 08, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Golden (Member # 164) on :
Doug, I re-read Don's original post, and I do think he was talking about taking a laptop and wacom tablet with him...thus the discussion on the merit of doing that. I would assume he already has a desktop in his shop, so the new variable is the upcoming laptop. Later, he did say "after the customer is gone, or when you are back to the shop", so I can see where he left the door open for some confusion here.
He also mentions not having to give the customer a copy of the sketch because it is IN the computer. If at the shop, the customer might easily ask for a printout, so it again appears he is brainstorming on taking the notebook on the road. Going back to the "keep it simple" theory, a few concept sketches on a gridded notepad accomplishes the same thing while out of the shop or in the shop. They are not something I would give out on the intial interview--simply a way of keeping mental and essential notes. With the deposit or sketch fee, I would then make the more finalized sketches--whether hand drawn or computerized.
I think discussions like this are intended to lay out a lot of options and concepts for all to review and analyze. People usually adopt parts of lots of plans, customized to their discretion and conditions. Don is brainstorming here, I believe, and is asking for input based on experiences from others here that might have either tried it, or have isolated on some pitfalls he hadn't considered yet. Conversely, he might find there are numerous people here doing what he is talking about and have had so much success they assume everyone else is already doing it, too.
When I used to go to the Conclave's at Rick Glawson's place, I always carried a small leather bound notewook with me. I could keep it with me most of the time and would jot down lots of seemingly trivial notes. When I got back to the hotel, or on my way back home on the plane, I would transpose and organize all the little notes into something very usable...thank goodness I made the notes because I have to refer to them often. By comparison, if I had tried to carry the notebook around with me all weekend to keep the same notes, I doubt I would have really ended up with the same notes. I love the computers and notebook computers, but have always tried to figure out exactly where they fit best into my operation and lifestyle.
Hope the comments help here somehow. Mike Jackson Jackson Hole, WY
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Thanks Mike, guess I should have re-read Don's original post as well before thinking I had understood it better then I did.
I guess what had stuck in my mind was his last sentance "If you're meeting with the customer in the shop, of course you wouldn't need the laptop. Thinking of uses for my new laptop was just where the idea came from"
As far as brainstorming Don's idea goes, I still fall in the trap of getting my time wasted by not having as much experience as so many others here. Now that I have begunto see where to draw the line though, I have no problem stating that seeing several fonts in a layout, or leaving with a sketch is no problem, but only after collecting a deposit.
I need to put a monitor out by the client seating area, because I like to keep clients from approaching my monitor. I do often get some computer layouts started while the client is present, because although it has backfired, it does seem to help sell a job sometimes.
If there is a scan involved & a known font to match, quickly scanning & typesetting can tend to oversimplify the process & lower the percieved value, but I have often explained how the scan would need vectorizing, node editing, & a reassignment of colors as well as color seperations, so the "baffle them with BS" phase of the sale usually couinteracts the impression of a quick computer sketch.
I do always start with a pencil & paper though. When I get my client monitor hooked up, I will try Don's idea.
Posted by Darrell Giese (Member # 768) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) over the rough computer pencil sketch.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[img]http://www.logoworks.com/images/platinum_package.gif [/img]![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)